Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
441

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…yes, that’s an absolute statement of value, just like the one i made earlier, “it’s wrong to kill another human being”…
[/quote]

Right.

And you said: [quote]For instance, “it’s wrong to kill another human being”, this in itself is an absolute statement, but as soon as you make an exception like capital punishment, war or selfdefense the statement becomes relative…[/quote]

To which I replied:

That’s simply not true. Say the value statement is, for example, “human life is exceedingly precious.”

If I take a life in revenge; if I execute in the name of justice; if I kill to prevent futher deaths, et cetera…

PLEASE NOTE MY CONCLUSION: …Each one of these^ actions aren’t exceptions. They are, in fact, affirmations of the very same value.

[/quote]

…i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]

Ephrem, I think that’s because you’re mixing up particular practices with a culture’s set of values.

That’s why I asked (above) the following question: “what do you mean exactly by “relative to the culture” - do you mean that not all cultures share a value (say, human life) or that not all cultures practice that value in the same way?”

Now, let’s flesh out a bit two of the examples from above. And then we’ll add a historical, cross-cultural example.

  1. Why would I take a life in revenge? If I didn’t value human life, and I considered it meaningless, how exactly would it be revenge? It’s precisely because I - and the victim as well as his allies, friends, family, etc. - value life immensely that the act of revenge killing has any meaning.

  2. How does executing in the name of justice have any meaning, unless all parties to the execution value human life? It is precisely because life is so precious that the judgement and action of an execution is the highest form of secular punishment.

Does that make sense or not?

Okay, say, the Aztecs - they were among many tribes/cultures that sacrificed young men and women. Once again, however, a sacrifice only has meaning in so far as what is being sacrificed is of extreme value.

Now, I know you probably don’t agree with these practices - neither do I. But you see, that’s another question.

Nevertheless, behind all of these practices, as well as many more we might name - and engrained in all cultures - is a deep reverence for life.

442

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Ok. Let me start again. Why are you not bothered by the deception, but bothered by the belief of that deception?[/quote]

…because to me it’s a symptom of blind ignorance, overt patriotism and a superficial mind…[/quote]

Can you answer the first part of the question as well?[/quote]

…because politicians have a hard time finding cannon fodder if they tell the truth. [/quote]

Depends on what the truth is.

Yes. Assuming that the actual truth would be something the populace would disagree with.

Just because you can understand the motive behind it, doesn’t mean no blame should be placed.

Well, when the populace doesn’t have full control or access to the information being fed to them, how can you blame them?

Another question. Do you think it was right for the USA to lie, as you say, to obtain resources when the truth wouldn’t have sufficed? Even though, as you say, they were looking out for #1?

443

Also Eph, do I understand you correctly that you feel blind ignorance, overt patriotism, and a superficial mind is worse than deception to a nation of people they represent, knowing the truth wouldn’t have been acceptable to them?

444

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]
Now we have yet one more demonstration of why human beings cannot be the final arbiters of right and wrong.

445

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…yes, that’s an absolute statement of value, just like the one i made earlier, “it’s wrong to kill another human being”…
[/quote]

Right.

And you said: [quote]For instance, “it’s wrong to kill another human being”, this in itself is an absolute statement, but as soon as you make an exception like capital punishment, war or selfdefense the statement becomes relative…[/quote]

To which I replied:

That’s simply not true. Say the value statement is, for example, “human life is exceedingly precious.”

If I take a life in revenge; if I execute in the name of justice; if I kill to prevent futher deaths, et cetera…

PLEASE NOTE MY CONCLUSION: …Each one of these^ actions aren’t exceptions. They are, in fact, affirmations of the very same value.

[/quote]

…i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]

Ephrem, I think that’s because you’re mixing up particular practices with a culture’s set of values.

That’s why I asked (above) the following question: “what do you mean exactly by “relative to the culture” - do you mean that not all cultures share a value (say, human life) or that not all cultures practice that value in the same way?”

Now, let’s flesh out a bit two of the examples from above. And then we’ll add a historical, cross-cultural example.

  1. Why would I take a life in revenge? If I didn’t value human life, and I considered it meaningless, how exactly would it be revenge? It’s precisely because I - and the victim as well as his allies, friends, family, etc. - value life immensely that the act of revenge killing has any meaning.

  2. How does executing in the name of justice have any meaning, unless all parties to the execution value human life? It is precisely because life is so precious that the judgement and action of an execution is the highest form of secular punishment.

Does that make sense or not?

Okay, say, the Aztecs - they were among many tribes/cultures that sacrificed young men and women. Once again, however, a sacrifice only has meaning in so far as what is being sacrificed is of extreme value.

Now, I know you probably don’t agree with these practices - but see, that’s another question.

Behind all of these practices, as well as many more we might name - and engrained in all cultures - is a deep reverence for life.

[/quote]

…you are confusing semantics with content, katz. The value, “human life is exceedingly precious” has no intrinsic meaning unless you act in a way that reflects your intent. By that i mean i don’t know how your behaviour is governed by this value. You could still kill another human being, defending that act with whatever justification you can think of, all the while maintaining the position that, “human life is exceedingly precious”…

…i also think it’s too vague a statement. Let’s get real here and say, “it’s wrong to kill a human being”. This implies that under no circumstance it is right to kill another human being. If you act in concordance with this statement, and if everybody else in the whole wide world believes this, and acts in concordance with this statement, then you’d have an absolute value…

…but because this is not true; because in every society people are killed wilfully, eventhough many people would agree witht the sentiment that it’s wrong to kill another human being, a value like this is not absolute. It is not equally true for everybody, no matter the circumstance…

…but perhaps it’s best that you explain to me what you think absolute and relative means in regards to values…

446

[quote]ephrem wrote:
“it’s wrong to kill another human being”…
[/quote]

Ephrem if I may.

I agree that killing another human is bad, but what if someone gave you a way to beat death would that not be one of the best gifts ever if not the best gift ever?

I say this because we as humans have sinned, and that sin is the reason we die. Whether we tell little white lies, or we kill another human being they are both sin. This is why there is suffering, disease, and death in this world. God gave us a way, through Jesus Christ, to never die, but have eternal life. The ultimate display of Love, salvation, and Grace known to man kind.

12 Men followed this belief to their death. These 12 men knew Jesus and walked with him for 3 and a half years. They knew who he was and that he is real. Many people ask for physical proof, and that is our proof. These men had no reason to lie to us about who Jesus was. The Christian Church was not cemented into history until Constintine. Before that you signed your death sentence if you accepted Jesus. Today Millions of people die not for committing any crime, but for believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is in my heart and he can also be in yours. The joy that his salvation brings is the greatest gift ever.

447

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Ok. Let me start again. Why are you not bothered by the deception, but bothered by the belief of that deception?[/quote]

…because to me it’s a symptom of blind ignorance, overt patriotism and a superficial mind…[/quote]

Can you answer the first part of the question as well?[/quote]

…because politicians have a hard time finding cannon fodder if they tell the truth. [/quote]

Depends on what the truth is.

Yes. Assuming that the actual truth would be something the populace would disagree with.

Just because you can understand the motive behind it, doesn’t mean no blame should be placed.

Well, when the populace doesn’t have full control or access to the information being fed to them, how can you blame them?

Another question. Do you think it was right for the USA to lie, as you say, to obtain resources when the truth wouldn’t have sufficed? Even though, as you say, they were looking out for #1?

[/quote]

…if Bush would’ve, at the time, come forth and said, “look people, we’re going to need the oil, the minerals, acces to pipelines and shippinglanes and we need a foothold in the area. We’re going to do that by spending trillions and trillions of dollars, and we’re going to be in massive debt. It’s going to cost the lives of your sons and daughters; many will be maimed for life, become ill or mentally unstable, and we’re not going to take proper care of them when they come home. Oh yeah, one other thing: me and my friends are going to become filthy rich as a result”…

…that probably would have resulted in the first lynching of an american president, don’t you think?

…do i think the government was right to lie? It’s not a question of right or wrong: it was necessaty. It’s certainly not something i would do, or be a part of, so for me it wouldn’t be the right thing to do…

448

…in a way, yes. You [the general you] enabled them to do what they did…

449

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
“it’s wrong to kill another human being”…
[/quote]

Ephrem if I may.

I agree that killing another human is bad, but what if someone gave you a way to beat death would that not be one of the best gifts ever if not the best gift ever?

I say this because we as humans have sinned, and that sin is the reason we die. Whether we tell little white lies, or we kill another human being they are both sin. This is why there is suffering, disease, and death in this world. God gave us a way, through Jesus Christ, to never die, but have eternal life. The ultimate display of Love, salvation, and Grace known to man kind.

12 Men followed this belief to their death. These 12 men knew Jesus and walked with him for 3 and a half years. They knew who he was and that he is real. Many people ask for physical proof, and that is our proof. These men had no reason to lie to us about who Jesus was. The Christian Church was not cemented into history until Constintine. Before that you signed your death sentence if you accepted Jesus. Today Millions of people die not for committing any crime, but for believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is in my heart and he can also be in yours. The joy that his salvation brings is the greatest gift ever. [/quote]

…i don’t want to live forever D. I want to live this life and enjoy it for as long as possible, but when my end comes i want it to be the end…

450

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]
Now we have yet one more demonstration of why human beings cannot be the final arbiters of right and wrong.[/quote]

…no, it’s better to let a figment of your imagination be the judge of that!

451

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
All I have to say on contraception is that it feels better without it than with it on, and I am being serious.

If the RCC wants to not use it then that is fine with me. I personally have made sure I do not have another child, can you say vasectomy? My wife was extremely fertile, and my seed was not going to be denied. We have 3 children, and that is all that we can support. Children are to be a blessing, and when you can not support the child that becomes a nightmare. If you want 18 children go for it, Duggers, but man that is a lot of money that I do not have.[/quote]

Haha, I have 3 children too and I am vasectomized. Partly for practical and financial reasons and mainly because it was obvious that a fourth birthgiving would have been very taxing to my wife.

@kaz: I bought and read the book you recommended to me a couple of years ago, The Devil’s Delusion by David Berlinski. It’s a while since I read it, a couple of years actually, so I don’t remember specifics. He had some good points, but I didn’t like his tone. He was probably adressing some other kind of audience than me.
Anyhow, I read it, it was interesting, it was something different and something I probably wouldn’t have otherwise picked up, so thank you for the recommendation.

452

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Ok. Let me start again. Why are you not bothered by the deception, but bothered by the belief of that deception?[/quote]

…because to me it’s a symptom of blind ignorance, overt patriotism and a superficial mind…[/quote]

Can you answer the first part of the question as well?[/quote]

…because politicians have a hard time finding cannon fodder if they tell the truth. [/quote]

Depends on what the truth is.

Yes. Assuming that the actual truth would be something the populace would disagree with.

Just because you can understand the motive behind it, doesn’t mean no blame should be placed.

Well, when the populace doesn’t have full control or access to the information being fed to them, how can you blame them?

Another question. Do you think it was right for the USA to lie, as you say, to obtain resources when the truth wouldn’t have sufficed? Even though, as you say, they were looking out for #1?

[/quote]

…if Bush would’ve, at the time, come forth and said, “look people, we’re going to need the oil, the minerals, acces to pipelines and shippinglanes and we need a foothold in the area. We’re going to do that by spending trillions and trillions of dollars, and we’re going to be in massive debt. It’s going to cost the lives of your sons and daughters; many will be maimed for life, become ill or mentally unstable, and we’re not going to take proper care of them when they come home. Oh yeah, one other thing: me and my friends are going to become filthy rich as a result”…

…that probably would have resulted in the first lynching of an american president, don’t you think?[/quote]

I agree with you here.

It IS a question of right and wrong. Necessity DOES NOT determine what is right or wrong. Nor does it make a wrong act acceptable. It is still wrong. While it might be “right” for the pocket book, stockpile, or world position, that doesn’t make it morally right.

By the way, I can’t believe you said that: “the oil, the minerals, acces to pipelines and shipping lanes and we need a foothold in the area”…was actually a necessity.

453

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…in a way, yes. You [the general you] enabled them to do what they did…
[/quote]

How so? I don’t remember a popular vote taking place in this country for or against going to war. And again, the public didn’t have access to enough information to determine at the time wether we were being deceived or not. So how exactly were we enabling the administration?

454

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]
Now we have yet one more demonstration of why human beings cannot be the final arbiters of right and wrong.[/quote]

…no, it’s better to let a figment of your imagination be the judge of that![/quote]
Before I respond further let me clarify that my point in this case was not even who was right or wrong, but that you asked a totally valid question. What IS in fact to be done when somebody simply and calmly says: “I disagree that__________is wrong or that__________is right or that they’re even values at all. Could be literally anything, who are you to tell me what to do?”

That may not tickle your fertile brain too much, but it is actually still the heart of the matter.

As you surely figured, I agree with Katz (and others) here. Reluctantly (very reluctantly) feeding an intruder some OO magnum buckshot is the regretful, but righteous taking of one life to fulfill my responsibility as a husband and father in protecting the lives of those whose safety I’ve been entrusted with. That is not relativity. That is a reflection of the nature of the God whose handiwork is evident in every particle of reality and especially His own oft mentioned remaining though sin blurred image in man.

I don’t have to guess. Bad guy = pull that trigger. Good guy = protect that life. As a blessedly added bonus (so to speak) I don’t have to guess which is which either. You do have to guess. In fact the very act of guessing presupposes some maybe even unconscious standard against which that guess is made or we very quickly degenerate into essential moral anarchy anywhere we can’t achieve some semblance of civilized consensus.

Even if we DO achieve some semblance of civilized consensus, how long before some appetite or propensity overtakes enough of the populous to render this year’s repugnant no no next year’s groovy new trend? Human civilization is not possible where there is no supra court beyond which there is no appeal. We can read and quote big fat ethics textbooks from now til the return of the Lord, but we end up right here every time.

455

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
But since you asked so kindly, I’ll tell you what I believe: I believe the universe exists.

Go ahead, disprove that one, buddy.[/quote]

You’ll get no argument from me there. That’s actually quite a nice start. We agree! Now, what - in your mind - follows from that fact. Maybe nothing, I’m just asking!

[/quote]

Then shut the fuck up, because thats what I believe. Nothing has to “follow from it”. I don’t need bedtime stories and fables to make me feel ok about the fact that the universe exsits, I dont need stupid stories about a sky wizard who makes no sense whatsoever.

[/quote]

Okay, so I guess that about does it.

I’m curious though. Why would you care if some people - in your words - “need bedtime stories and fables.” You sound rather upset about this “fact.”

Incidentially, this “fact” is just something that exists in your head. That’s okay though. We’ll assume it’s true for now.

[/quote]

What kind of effect do you think christianity has on nonchristians in america?

456

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
CappedandPlanIt.

Why are you so angry with Christians? What happened to you as a child? If there is something that happened maybe we can talk about it and resolve the issue. Coming in here and throwing around the name Christ*&%$ is not going to get you anywhere. If you want help we are here and listening. If you are just being an ass you can go somewhere else. Grow up. We are all gentleman here.

[/quote]

Nothing happened to me. I happened.

Perhaps your side would like to take the word God off of my money and out of our schools, stop throwing around accusations that nonchristians are “spiritually dead” and “do not value life”, and stop presenting subjective beliefs as objective reasoning.

Then, we’ll be cool, yeah?

458

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Objective truths are truths that are equally true for each and everyone of us, no mattter the circumstances.[/quote]

Okay. Good - that’s something we can agree on. And prolly build on.

I don’t mean to be a pain in the ass, Ephrem, but your therefore^ here implies that you have set up a chain of reasoning. The second statement neither implies nor proves the second.

Question: what do you mean exactly by “relative to the culture” - do you mean that not all cultures share a value (say, human life) or that not all cultures practice that value in the same way?

[/quote]

…this goes against my better judgment, but anyway: i said “therefore” because values are inherently subjective and relative. [/quote]

But therefore implies a chain of reasoning. You’re either assuming, proposing, declaring, or whatever. That’s different.

That’s simply not true. Say the value statement is, for example, “human life is exceedingly precious.”

If I take a life in revenge; if I execute in the name of justice; if I kill to prevent futher deaths, et cetera…

…Each one of these actions aren’t exceptions. They are, in fact, affirmations of the value.

[/quote]

…allright, give me an example of an absolute value?[/quote]

Off the top of my head, how about the one I just stated? It’s neutral, not “religious” in any obvious sense; doubtless you hold it.

To wit: “Human life is exceedingly precious.”

[/quote]

Is this an absolute value? “Precious” means it must be “precious to” some sentient being - human life is not considered precious to other animals. And even to say “Human life is exceedingly precious to humans” is too wide a statement because there are some humans to whom human life is not precious.

Am I misdefining “value” to mean “truth”?

459

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Trust me, when it comes to being offensive, I wont try to compete with christians.

[/quote]

All that, without even trying?

Impressive. Most impressive.[/quote]

I’d love to say I try, but we’ve clearly covered the fact that I dont.

460

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
“it’s wrong to kill another human being”…
[/quote]

Ephrem if I may.

I agree that killing another human is bad, but what if someone gave you a way to beat death would that not be one of the best gifts ever if not the best gift ever?

I say this because we as humans have sinned, and that sin is the reason we die. Whether we tell little white lies, or we kill another human being they are both sin. This is why there is suffering, disease, and death in this world. God gave us a way, through Jesus Christ, to never die, but have eternal life. The ultimate display of Love, salvation, and Grace known to man kind.

12 Men followed this belief to their death. These 12 men knew Jesus and walked with him for 3 and a half years. They knew who he was and that he is real. Many people ask for physical proof, and that is our proof. These men had no reason to lie to us about who Jesus was. The Christian Church was not cemented into history until Constintine. Before that you signed your death sentence if you accepted Jesus. Today Millions of people die not for committing any crime, but for believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is in my heart and he can also be in yours. The joy that his salvation brings is the greatest gift ever. [/quote]

This is a tenant of christianity I am wholeheartedly against.

Death is not a punishment, it is a natural part of life. It does not come from sin, or exist as a result of any action from any person (or species). It simply happens, and isn’t a bad thing.

I find the idea that death did not happen before sin occured to be ridiculous… according to your creation myth, plants and animals came first, then humans. In all that time (between creation and original sin), other animals (and plants) didn’t die? And did their deaths begin as a result of that sin?