Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
481

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Honest question: Is there pain, suffering, or death in heaven?[/quote]No

The word of the day is “impresive.”

Honest question: is there free will in heaven?[/quote]
By what is probably your definition I don’t believe there is free will on earth (an absolutely mind bending and humongous topic). Near as I can tell it does change after the resurrection into sinlessness, but it is still not possible for so much as an electron to be out of place in God’s providence and decrees in any case whatsoever.

And Joab your post is excellent. [/quote]

I’ll rephrase: Can one sin, once they are in heaven? Do they still have the choice?

482

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< I’ll rephrase: Can one sin, once they are in heaven? Do they still have the choice?[/quote]
I am not being evasive nor am I engaging in over pious sophistry when I say that that is the wrong way to ask that question. The human will, will be in it’s freest (for lack of a better way of putting it) state since it’s creation once resurrected in it’s glorified sinless body so in one sense sin will never have been more possible. Adam had no sinful nature nor flesh when he sinned and neither will the resurrected saints.

However, God has revealed enough of His secret providence so that we have His declaration that there is no sin for the saints after the resurrection and inasmuch as it is impossible for Him to foreknow or proclaim anything other than an absolute certainty, it is therefore ultimately not possible that sin should ever again plague the church, who is eternally and forever the bride and body of Christ, in heaven. To which I will add is an infinitely more blessed state than was enjoyed even by Adam before his fall into transgression. God in His most unfathomable love and mercy turns the ultimate curse into the ultimate bliss.

If you hear nothing else I’ve said, I am telling you people that far FAAAAAR from experiencing any variety of dismay over who is NOT there, I and whoever of you may be joining me, once having the fullest possible understanding of both sin and the now in plain sight holiness of God, will marvel in joy and wonder heretofore inexpressible that WE or anybody else is there at all.

That is the laughably short version as I and multiple millions of other Christians in history have seen this question. As I have said many times there is a certain level of probing into the mind and nature of God beyond which righteous curiosity becomes sinful presumption. There was a time in my younger walk with the Lord when, having the excessively inquisitive mind that I do, I practically lived in the latter. I can’t point to where the line is, but I know when I’m crossing it and I have come to have “the peace that passes understanding” in knowing what is revealed and trusting the rest to Him.

483

Stated,

“…If I had a deathbed conversion (hey, it could happen) and just made it into heaven but later found out that my daughter (who will probably adopt my skeptical views) died without the opportunity for a conversion and was condemned to hell, forever, and I could never see her again, then at that moment, I would consider myself to be in hell. I don’t care if God, Jesus, and thousands of angels are there - it would be hell for me…”

Revelation 7:17

“For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes…”

The Lamb who is in the midst of the throne, and therefore sharing the power and authority of the one on the throne, will remove their sorrow (“my daughter…died without the opportunity for a conversion”), wiping every tear from their eyes.

Here is a strong contrast with the use of the exact same verb poimanei in Revelation 2:27; 19:15; see also 12:5. In those passages, acting the part of a shepherd indicates the shattering of the nations with a rod of iron in terrible judgment that will bring an end to the present world system, climaxing in the reign of the Antichrist. Here, acting the part of the shepherd means bringing the fulfillment of all the Good Shepherd is to His sheep (Psalm 23; Isaiah 40:11; John 10:1-30; 21:15-17).

The springs of living water are the final fulfillment and fullness of what was promised in John 4:14 and 7:38. The waters of life will forever abundantly satisfy.

This is a great promise, since for mankind tears symbolize sorrow. Many events of life cause tears, even for the children of God. This great promise may refer to the removal of any memory (“my daughter…died without the opportunity for a conversion”) that might cause us suffering, regret, or remorse. In heaven nothing that involves deprivation, suffering, or sorrow remains. It is blessed to know a time is coming when a loving Heavenly Father will himself wipe away all tears.

Those “skeptical views” of a daughter could change before that day of condemnation if that “conversion” of the father was done earlier. Our time on earth is not known for “he limiteth a certain day” (Heb. 4:7a), tomorrow is not guaranteed for “ye know not what shall be on the morrow” (James 4:14), “today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts” (Heb. 4:7b), “now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation” (II Cor. 6:2).

484

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< I’ll rephrase: Can one sin, once they are in heaven? Do they still have the choice?[/quote]
I am not being evasive nor am I engaging in over pious sophistry when I say that that is the wrong way to ask that question. The human will, will be in it’s freest (for lack of a better way of putting it) state since it’s creation once resurrected in it’s glorified sinless body so in one sense sin will never have been more possible. Adam had no sinful nature nor flesh when he sinned and neither will the resurrected saints.

However, God has revealed enough of His secret providence so that we have His declaration that there is no sin for the saints after the resurrection and inasmuch as it is impossible for Him to foreknow or proclaim anything other than an absolute certainty, it is therefore ultimately not possible that sin should ever again plague the church, who is eternally and forever the bride and body of Christ, in heaven. To which I will add is an infinitely more blessed state than was enjoyed even by Adam before his fall into transgression. God in His most unfathomable love and mercy turns the ultimate curse into the ultimate bliss.

If you hear nothing else I’ve said, I am telling you people that far FAAAAAR from experiencing any variety of dismay over who is NOT there, I and whoever of you may be joining me, once having the fullest possible understanding of both sin and the now in plain sight holiness of God, will marvel in joy and wonder heretofore inexpressible that WE or anybody else is there at all.

That is the laughably short version as I and multiple millions of other Christians in history have seen this question. As I have said many times there is a certain level of probing into the mind and nature of God beyond which righteous curiosity becomes sinful presumption. There was a time in my younger walk with the Lord when, having the excessively inquisitive mind that I do, I practically lived in the latter. I can’t point to where the line is, but I know when I’m crossing it and I have come to have “the peace that passes understanding” in knowing what is revealed and trusting the rest to Him.[/quote]

So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.

485

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.

486

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]

If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?

487

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No
Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]
If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]Like I said before. “Still” is meaningless in this context because I don’t believe the human will is free here by what is probably your definition. Like I also said before, this is a mind bending topic (actually group of topics) and just like God himself, is not comprehensively accessible to finite, especially sinful creatures, which still includes me BTW.

488

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No
Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]
If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]Like I said before. “Still” is meaningless in this context because I don’t believe the human will is free here by what is probably your definition. Like I also said before, this is a mind bending topic (actually group of topics) and just like God himself, is not comprehensively accessible to finite, especially sinful creatures, which still includes me BTW.
[/quote]

Again with this “what is probably my definition”

Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will?

489

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.

490

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]

If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]

Do you believe yourself to be of sound mind and body? In other words, healthy and rational?

491

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.
[/quote]

Nope. Try again.

Or be a gentleman and ask what my definition is instead of replying about my “probably definition”.

492

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]

If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]

Do you believe yourself to be of sound mind and body? In other words, healthy and rational?
[/quote]

What an odd question.

Yes, generally, I think so. Why do you ask?

493

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.
[/quote]

Nope. Try again.

Or be a gentleman and ask what my definition is instead of replying about my “probably definition”.[/quote]
Fair enough, what is your definition?

494

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.
[/quote]

Nope. Try again.

Or be a gentleman and ask what my definition is instead of replying about my “probably definition”.[/quote]
Fair enough, what is your definition?[/quote]

Too complex to give a full definition, but for our context here, lets focus on one part of it: The choice to sin.

Is that fair, to say that free will is what gives us the ability to sin?

495

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]

If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]

Do you believe yourself to be of sound mind and body? In other words, healthy and rational?
[/quote]

What an odd question.

Yes, generally, I think so. Why do you ask?[/quote]

Barring any rational reason for doing so (if there is one) would you intentionally put your hand on a red hot stove?

496

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.
[/quote]

Nope. Try again.

Or be a gentleman and ask what my definition is instead of replying about my “probably definition”.[/quote]
Fair enough, what is your definition?[/quote]

Too complex to give a full definition, but for our context here, lets focus on one part of it: The choice to sin.

Is that fair, to say that free will is what gives us the ability to sin?[/quote]If by us you mean you and I then no. Free will is the opposite of what produces sin. The will is in bondage to sin and sin is it’s natural and incessant propensity. That is spiritual death.

If we’re addressing the pre fall garden that’s a mystery (in it’s details) that will not be solved in this lifetime. If heaven, then the will has been freed from all inclination, temptation and inducement to sin and God has said there will be none hence there will not. This is my absolutely honest and, “no, I’m not trying to be difficult”, answer.

497

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So, you die. You go up to heaven. Once there, can you make the choice to sin? Just yes or no, please.[/quote]No

Great stuff from Blacksheep again.
[/quote]

If you don’t have the choice to sin, do you still have free will?[/quote]

Do you believe yourself to be of sound mind and body? In other words, healthy and rational?
[/quote]

What an odd question.

Yes, generally, I think so. Why do you ask?[/quote]

Barring any rational reason for doing so (if there is one) would you intentionally put your hand on a red hot stove?
[/quote]

Hm. See, my initial response would be “No, I wouldnt, because it would just hurt and I had no rational reason for doing it”

But then, what comes to mind is: Is there ANYTHING I would do without a rational reason for doing so? The way you qualify with “Barring any rational reason for doing so” means I would be doing it for an irrational reason or no reason… and there isn’t anything I do for an irrational reason or no reason (or at least I’d like to think so).

And then we can get into “rational”. If I decide I want to burn my hand, because I want a burnt hand, is that rational?

Basically, I think your qualifier kills the question.

498

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Please, enlighten me, what is “probably my definition” of free will? [/quote]The ability to execute decisions autonomously or in an environment of autonomy. That is, without any controlling influence exogenous to the the will itself. Will being defined as that somewhat inexplicable function of humanity whereby choices between competing options before the intellect are formed and carried out.

I do believe man has a free will, only that it’s definition is governed by the providence and decrees of an almighty God who cannot suffer a single blowing leaf, solar particle or movement of the created human will to thwart His exception-less self glorifying purpose.
[/quote]

Nope. Try again.

Or be a gentleman and ask what my definition is instead of replying about my “probably definition”.[/quote]
Fair enough, what is your definition?[/quote]

Too complex to give a full definition, but for our context here, lets focus on one part of it: The choice to sin.

Is that fair, to say that free will is what gives us the ability to sin?[/quote]If by us you mean you and I then no. Free will is the opposite of what produces sin. The will is in bondage to sin and sin is it’s natural and incessant propensity. That is spiritual death. If we’re addressing the pre fall garden that’s a mystery (in it’s details) that will not be solved in this lifetime.

If heaven, then the will has been freed from all inclination, temptation and inducement to sin and God has said there will be none hence there will not. This is my absolutely honest and, “no, I’m trying to be difficult”, answer.
[/quote]

Ok. So there will be no sin because there will be no reason or desire to sin? Is that what you’re saying?

499

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If by us you mean you and I then no. Free will is the opposite of what produces sin. The will is in bondage to sin and sin is it’s natural and incessant propensity. That is spiritual death. If we’re addressing the pre fall garden that’s a mystery (in it’s details) that will not be solved in this lifetime.

If heaven, then the will has been freed from all inclination, temptation and inducement to sin and God has said there will be none hence there will not. This is my absolutely honest and, “no, I’m trying to be difficult”, answer.
[/quote]Ok. So there will be no sin because there will be no reason or desire to sin? Is that what you’re saying?[/quote]In short yes. In the resurrection, the new creature born in this life is brought to maturity in the next along with a glorified sin and death free eternal physical body. Again, in short. This is very tough to do in a forum like this. Even looking over my previous posts, I see the inadequacy. It’s late. If you respond tonight and I don’t I’m not ignoring you.

500

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If by us you mean you and I then no. Free will is the opposite of what produces sin. The will is in bondage to sin and sin is it’s natural and incessant propensity. That is spiritual death. If we’re addressing the pre fall garden that’s a mystery (in it’s details) that will not be solved in this lifetime.

If heaven, then the will has been freed from all inclination, temptation and inducement to sin and God has said there will be none hence there will not. This is my absolutely honest and, “no, I’m trying to be difficult”, answer.
[/quote]Ok. So there will be no sin because there will be no reason or desire to sin? Is that what you’re saying?[/quote]In short yes. In the resurrection, the new creature born in this life is brought to maturity in the next along with a glorified sin and death free eternal physical body. Again, in short. This is very tough to do in a forum like this. Even looking over my previous posts, I see the inadequacy. It’s late. If you respond tonight and I don’t I’m not ignoring you.
[/quote]

Doesnt this mean that, to have sinned in the first place, the desire or reason to sin must have existed in Adam/Eve, despite Eden being perfect?