Mexican Loyalties in the United States

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
valiant knight wrote:
3 things:
It’s very simple to have strict immigration controls.

Mexico has had hundreds of years now to improve its economy.

Mexicans do not assimilate. Their education levels start low and drop lower. Trending ever downward.

The world does not need another Mexico. Without the United States there will be a dark age.

First point. The majority of illegal immigrants into the US entered the country legally and overstayed. If you tighten the immigration rules you just end up with more illegals.

Second point, how has Mexico had hundreds of years? It is just celebrating it’s bicentenary and it has only recently come out of what was effectively a dictatorship. Most of the states that have high numbers of Mexicans were considered part of Mexico as recently as 150 years ago. The people didn’t move, the border did.

Third point the stats from the linked article talk about year over year improvement so the trending is ever upward.[/quote]

No, they talk about year-over-year deterioration. Telles and Ortiz data confirms this:

You can witness it with your own eyes if you’ve lived in a place like California for a long time.

42

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Most people from South of the border do not come on a Visa, so they are not overstaying anything. They are walking across the border knowingly and willingly.

This is simply not true. The vast majority enter legally and overstay.[/quote]

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

43

Let’s add a little research into this thread.

The Changing Pathways of Hispanic Youths into Adulthood

by Richard Fry, Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center
October 7, 2009

Executive Summary

Young Latino adults in the United States are more likely to be in school or the work force now than their counterparts were in previous generations. In 1970, 77% of Hispanics ages 16 to 251 were either working, going to school or serving in the military; by 2007, 86% of Latinos in this coming-of-age group were taking part in these skill-building endeavors, according to a comprehensive analysis of four decades of Census Bureau data by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

Patterns in Education

Young Hispanics’ growing pursuit of schooling since 1970 has occurred at both the secondary and post-secondary levels. Hispanic high school dropout rates have sharply declined since 1970, when more than one-third of young Hispanics were high school dropouts. By 2007, fewer than one-fifth were dropouts.

College enrollment has also expanded among Hispanic youths. In 1970, only 25% of young Hispanic high-school completers were enrolled in college at the time of interview. By 2007, almost 40% of Hispanic high-school completers were pursuing college.

44

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Let’s add a little research into this thread.

The Changing Pathways of Hispanic Youths into Adulthood

by Richard Fry, Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center
October 7, 2009

Executive Summary

Young Latino adults in the United States are more likely to be in school or the work force now than their counterparts were in previous generations. In 1970, 77% of Hispanics ages 16 to 251 were either working, going to school or serving in the military; by 2007, 86% of Latinos in this coming-of-age group were taking part in these skill-building endeavors, according to a comprehensive analysis of four decades of Census Bureau data by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

Patterns in Education

Young Hispanics’ growing pursuit of schooling since 1970 has occurred at both the secondary and post-secondary levels. Hispanic high school dropout rates have sharply declined since 1970, when more than one-third of young Hispanics were high school dropouts. By 2007, fewer than one-fifth were dropouts.

College enrollment has also expanded among Hispanic youths. In 1970, only 25% of young Hispanic high-school completers were enrolled in college at the time of interview. By 2007, almost 40% of Hispanic high-school completers were pursuing college.

I’m not finding great cause for rejoicing in that report, G_L. Of the Hispanics that actually graduate high school, 40% are going to college. But 19% of them are dropping out altogether, which is twice the black rate and 4x the white rate. Moreover, as Table 1 shows, they simply have lower school enrollment rates altogether.

They’re not passing the “middle class value test” with anywhere near the regularity of even blacks, and blacks are disproportionately in the lower classes.

Hispanic women are becoming less likely to be mothers, but of those that are, they are disproportionately single mothers:

I guess upward trends are good, as long as they’re not in categories we consider “bad,” but the real question is by how much they lag/lead the white American trends, because those trends are most descriptive of this country, or will be until roughly 2020. They’re trending lower in incarceration rates than blacks, but still double that of whites and about the same level of achievement in other areas.

Yay?

45

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Most people from South of the border do not come on a Visa, so they are not overstaying anything. They are walking across the border knowingly and willingly.

This is simply not true. The vast majority enter legally and overstay.

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one. [/quote]

  1. It’s about half that have crossed legally.

  2. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials.

As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. Known as “overstayers,” these migrants became part of the illegal population when they remained after their visas had expired.

Another smaller share of the unauthorized migrant population entered the county legally from Mexico using a Border Crossing Card, a document that allows short visits limited to the border region, and then violated the terms of admission.

The rest of the unauthorized migrant population, somewhat more than half, entered the country illegally. Some evaded customs and immigration inspectors at ports of entry by hiding in vehicles such as cargo trucks. Others trekked through the Arizona desert, waded across the Rio Grande or otherwise eluded the U.S. Border Patrol which has jurisdiction over all the land areas away from the ports of entry on the borders with Mexico and Canada.
http://pewhispanic.org/factsheets/factsheet.php?FactsheetID=19

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

46

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Let’s add a little research into this thread.

The Changing Pathways of Hispanic Youths into Adulthood

by Richard Fry, Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center
October 7, 2009

Executive Summary

Young Latino adults in the United States are more likely to be in school or the work force now than their counterparts were in previous generations. In 1970, 77% of Hispanics ages 16 to 251 were either working, going to school or serving in the military; by 2007, 86% of Latinos in this coming-of-age group were taking part in these skill-building endeavors, according to a comprehensive analysis of four decades of Census Bureau data by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

Patterns in Education

Young Hispanics’ growing pursuit of schooling since 1970 has occurred at both the secondary and post-secondary levels. Hispanic high school dropout rates have sharply declined since 1970, when more than one-third of young Hispanics were high school dropouts. By 2007, fewer than one-fifth were dropouts.

College enrollment has also expanded among Hispanic youths. In 1970, only 25% of young Hispanic high-school completers were enrolled in college at the time of interview. By 2007, almost 40% of Hispanic high-school completers were pursuing college.

I’m not finding great cause for rejoicing in that report, G_L. Of the Hispanics that actually graduate high school, 40% are going to college. But 19% of them are dropping out altogether, which is twice the black rate and 4x the white rate. Moreover, as Table 1 shows, they simply have lower school enrollment rates altogether.

They’re not passing the “middle class value test” with anywhere near the regularity of even blacks, and blacks are disproportionately in the lower classes.

Hispanic women are becoming less likely to be mothers, but of those that are, they are disproportionately single mothers:

I guess upward trends are good, as long as they’re not in categories we consider “bad,” but the real question is by how much they lag/lead the white American trends, because those trends are most descriptive of this country, or will be until roughly 2020. They’re trending lower in incarceration rates than blacks, but still double that of whites and about the same level of achievement in other areas.

Yay? [/quote]

The trend is upward as it is for Blacks, Asians and Whites. The stats are better than the ones you would have seen for whites in the 30s and 40s. Hispanic families are steadily starting to get a family tradition of valuing education. It takes time, it takes generations but it is improving. And in the meantime, the high school dropouts are doing the types of jobs that white and Asian High School graduates refuse to do thereby filling a need in the marketplace.

It is interesting that some of the most vociferous proponents of a totally free market economy nationally want artificial barriers when it comes to international issues.

47

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Most people from South of the border do not come on a Visa, so they are not overstaying anything. They are walking across the border knowingly and willingly.

This is simply not true. The vast majority enter legally and overstay.

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. It’s about half that have crossed legally.

  2. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials.

As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. [/quote]

Is that, as it says, all migrant populations?

48

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Most people from South of the border do not come on a Visa, so they are not overstaying anything. They are walking across the border knowingly and willingly.

This is simply not true. The vast majority enter legally and overstay.

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. It’s about half that have crossed legally.

  2. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials.

As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. Known as “overstayers,” these migrants became part of the illegal population when they remained after their visas had expired.

Another smaller share of the unauthorized migrant population entered the county legally from Mexico using a Border Crossing Card, a document that allows short visits limited to the border region, and then violated the terms of admission.

The rest of the unauthorized migrant population, somewhat more than half, entered the country illegally. Some evaded customs and immigration inspectors at ports of entry by hiding in vehicles such as cargo trucks. Others trekked through the Arizona desert, waded across the Rio Grande or otherwise eluded the U.S. Border Patrol which has jurisdiction over all the land areas away from the ports of entry on the borders with Mexico and Canada.
http://pewhispanic.org/factsheets/factsheet.php?FactsheetID=19

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

[/quote]

In general, it’s a good idea to double any bad statistic the government gives you. The Heritage Foundation’s estimate is the estimate they got from the Census bureau. Bear Stearns did a report that estimated possibly 20 million. Since there are millions in Los Angeles county alone, it seems silly to believe the government’s number:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf

49

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Let’s add a little research into this thread.

The Changing Pathways of Hispanic Youths into Adulthood

by Richard Fry, Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center
October 7, 2009

Executive Summary

Young Latino adults in the United States are more likely to be in school or the work force now than their counterparts were in previous generations. In 1970, 77% of Hispanics ages 16 to 251 were either working, going to school or serving in the military; by 2007, 86% of Latinos in this coming-of-age group were taking part in these skill-building endeavors, according to a comprehensive analysis of four decades of Census Bureau data by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

Patterns in Education

Young Hispanics’ growing pursuit of schooling since 1970 has occurred at both the secondary and post-secondary levels. Hispanic high school dropout rates have sharply declined since 1970, when more than one-third of young Hispanics were high school dropouts. By 2007, fewer than one-fifth were dropouts.

College enrollment has also expanded among Hispanic youths. In 1970, only 25% of young Hispanic high-school completers were enrolled in college at the time of interview. By 2007, almost 40% of Hispanic high-school completers were pursuing college.

Does this include high school dropouts and those who never even attended before dashing for the border?

50

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
Most people from South of the border do not come on a Visa, so they are not overstaying anything. They are walking across the border knowingly and willingly.

This is simply not true. The vast majority enter legally and overstay.

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. It’s about half that have crossed legally.

  2. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

Modes of Entry for the Unauthorized Migrant Population

Nearly half of all the unauthorized migrants now living in the United States entered the country legally through a port of entry such as an airport or a border crossing point where they were subject to inspection by immigration officials.

As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. Known as “overstayers,” these migrants became part of the illegal population when they remained after their visas had expired.

Another smaller share of the unauthorized migrant population entered the county legally from Mexico using a Border Crossing Card, a document that allows short visits limited to the border region, and then violated the terms of admission.

The rest of the unauthorized migrant population, somewhat more than half, entered the country illegally. Some evaded customs and immigration inspectors at ports of entry by hiding in vehicles such as cargo trucks. Others trekked through the Arizona desert, waded across the Rio Grande or otherwise eluded the U.S. Border Patrol which has jurisdiction over all the land areas away from the ports of entry on the borders with Mexico and Canada.
http://pewhispanic.org/factsheets/factsheet.php?FactsheetID=19

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

[/quote]

The reports I read a couple of years back whilst working in US Hispanic Advertising put the percentage of overstayers as higher than that but I will accept that maybe vast majority was pushing it a bit. Regardless the image of the wetback border runner is not typical for a large number of the illegal immigrants in the US.

51

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
The reports I read a couple of years back whilst working in US Hispanic Advertising put the percentage of overstayers as higher than that but I will accept that maybe vast majority was pushing it a bit. Regardless the image of the wetback border runner is not typical for a large number of the illegal immigrants in the US.[/quote]

If it’s even close to 50%, that’s large.

52

Are Hispanics assimilating? Evidence points to “Yes.” Especially in the 2nd generation.

English[…]is quickly making ground
among immigrants[…it] becomes
more dominant than Spanish in the second generation.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/11.pdf

Note: Language is a fairly good proxy for assimilation.

53

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

In general, it’s a good idea to double any bad statistic the government gives you. The Heritage Foundation’s estimate is the estimate they got from the Census bureau. Bear Stearns did a report that estimated possibly 20 million. Since there are millions in Los Angeles county alone, it seems silly to believe the government’s number:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf
[/quote]

Amazing, isn’t it? Call PR on some bullshit and he actually kinda-sorta admits it. Looks like we just lost 10million illegal immigrants!

54

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

In general, it’s a good idea to double any bad statistic the government gives you. The Heritage Foundation’s estimate is the estimate they got from the Census bureau. Bear Stearns did a report that estimated possibly 20 million. Since there are millions in Los Angeles county alone, it seems silly to believe the government’s number:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf

Amazing, isn’t it? Call PR on some bullshit and he actually kinda-sorta admits it. Looks like we just lost 10million illegal immigrants! [/quote]

G_L,

Have you been lacking in attention from me? It seems like we went through a period where you avoided following my posts with some sort of “!11!!!” binary, and now we’re heading back to square one here. I’ll pay more attention to you if it makes you feel better.

55

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Are Hispanics assimilating? Evidence points to “Yes.” Especially in the 2nd generation.

English[…]is quickly making ground
among immigrants[…it] becomes
more dominant than Spanish in the second generation.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/11.pdf

Note: Language is a fairly good proxy for assimilation.[/quote]

Why is language a “good proxy for assimilation?” I find this to be an extremely low hurdle.

56

I’m Latino, I speak Spanish and English equally well. i prefer to speak Spanish, and prefer to hang out and socialize in Spanish.

I love the USA, but don’t feel like I need to assimilate here, as these lands are as much ours as the Anglo Saxons, perhaps more so. At the same time, I don’t feel animosity towards Anglo-Saxons, I feel they are a hardworking and culturally respectable people.

It does piss me off tho when people equate Latinos, with illegal immigrants. I do not like illegal immigrants, and don’t agree with them running the border, that is a CRIME, one we do not tolerate in our own countries. On the other hand, Florida, Louisiana Purchase, Southwest and Western Seaboard, are all historically Spanish speaking lands and regions.

To say that we are somehow invading your country when the great majority of Latinos in California for example are descended from people who were there BEFORE the Anglos came is insulting. We have right to this land as much as anyone else, perhaps more so because the great majority of us are 1/8 to 3/4 Native American.

I think in the future Latinos and Anglos will continue to form the hardworking backbone of this nation, and many Anglos will come to accept and respect us more than they have in the past. I also believe in some regions a situation such as Quebec should emerge, as our language is not FOREIGN to this country, rather the original one.

57

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

Evidence? You’re telling me 30 million Mexicans entered this country legally on a visa and overstayed? LOL. Good one.

  1. Your 30 million is complete bullshit. Typical bullshit from you. Let’s see your source. I think The Heritage foundation puts the figure at 12million.

the US did indeed see a[n increase] of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Numbers [increased] from an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the country to 12 million today.

In general, it’s a good idea to double any bad statistic the government gives you. The Heritage Foundation’s estimate is the estimate they got from the Census bureau. Bear Stearns did a report that estimated possibly 20 million. Since there are millions in Los Angeles county alone, it seems silly to believe the government’s number:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf

Amazing, isn’t it? Call PR on some bullshit and he actually kinda-sorta admits it. Looks like we just lost 10million illegal immigrants! [/quote]

The reason I have such a problem with the government numbers is that the government’s own data calls it into question. Back in the late 90s, the rate of illegal immigration was still showing upward trends in the 2nd derivative, meaning the rate of illegal immigration was still increasing, even before the housing boom. Only recently has the 2nd derivative declined. If 800,000 illegal immigrants were coming/year, what was the rate in 2003? 2006? What was the total sum under the curve in the last decade given that increasing rate of change? Sorry, 12 million is a low-ball.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2003/illegalsrelease.html

58

I think this is an optimistic assessment. “Anglos” (a misnomer for white people as most of us in this country are of German descent) are extremely unhappy paying taxes that are redistributed to non-“Anglos.” We have increasingly - diverging interests. Latinos are mostly in tax brackets that pay no taxes and “Anglos” are mostly in tax brackets that do pay taxes that are given to Latinos. This is organized government theft and race/class strife.

59

Anglos is short for Anglo-Saxons, Saxons include much of Germany. Anyways about it, Latinos is a misnomer, many Latinos are basically Native Americans, or Blacks or some mix of the two. I’m light skinned, and dark hair, thus I match Latino as in descended from peoples of the former Roman Empire more than some half Indian like Carlos Mencia. It’s odd tho cuz alot of people tell me I’m not Latino, because I look so light skinned, and green eyed. That’s so retarded, it’d be like telling some white guy he wasn’t Scottish, because all the Wallaces you’ve ever met were Black Americans, who were convicned they were Scots. God that fucking bugs me.

Anyways, back to the argument. I don’t see it like this, Latinos make less than whites on average, however make more than Afro-Saxons and Native Americans, and also respect education and are increasingly becoming more educated and skilled. My family has never taken government hand outs, its against our work ethic, there is a great many of us like this. You also can’t lump as all together, Cuban Americans are higher educated and more productive than the average Anglo-Saxon, I haven’t seen the statistics but I imagine South American are comparable.

This contributes to some of the enmity in between Mexican & Puerto Rican immigrants vs South American & Cuban ones. Many Mexicans & Puerto Ricans have a social mentality of entitlement that just sucks.

60

Wrong. Sachsen is a small part of the east.

Most of the Germans here are from teh Palatinate:

Well, we’re getting mostly Mexicans, not Cubans.