Good people improve society, gay/straight/trans/etc. People are people and ones sexual orientation isn’t a good indicator of a positive or negative impact on our current society.
What factors are you looking at to gauge if a class of people is improving society?
I don’t do Kroc rows, seem like a bit of an overkill for most people. If it works for you do em. Matt was always pretty extreme with everything, even before he announced his transgender feelings.
I did admire his physical prowess, and mental strength. I can’t say I understand his feelings, but if it makes him happy, its his choice. He has lost a lot of money over it though, its up for him to decide if its worth it for him. He definitely has increased the complexity of things for his kids, which is quite selfish.
I know exactly one trans person and I consider that person one of my very best friends, and that person most definitely improves society.
Not because he went from being a really athletic, very masculine person to more of an androgynous David Bowie-ish dressing person with very femme tendencies, not to mention coming out as “queer as fuck” (to use his words), but because he improves people’s lives through his work and through his actions.
The sad reality is that many trans people are highly prone to an array of self-destructive behaviors, along with being targets for predators of all stripes. My friend is perhaps one of the most well-prepared people to come out as trans, right up there with Jeanie (formerly Matt) Kroc. He’s taken it upon himself to be a leader to other trans and homosexual/bisexual people. He may not be Ghandi or MLK, but he is most definitely working to improve outcomes in everyday people’s lives.
I’ve actually encouraged my friend to take up my old bouncing job, which could provide endless amounts of amusement as unruly customers and shit-talkers get rag-dolled and choked-out by a guy in women’s clothes with some really good jiu jitsu, very little fear and strength that is strong by lifter standards.
These days what’s good and bad behaviour is up for debate because good is more than ever a value judgement based upon the individual, at the expense of the broader society.
I guess objectivity is the ultimate gauge. Does a contested behaviour have a demonstrated positive or negative effect. on society. Its always up to those that want to change something to make a case in favour for the change.
I know I said I was done, but this last part bears repeating. This is from an M&F article detailing Matt’s transition to Janae, and discusses the idea that people constantly bring up someone’s children as though being who you want to be for your children and showing them that you don’t have to run from who you are is selfish. Just some food for thought.
Emboldened by her brush with death, Janae decided to reveal her true self to her sons when they were aged 2, 4, and 6. She went into her bedroom, changed into a dress, high heels, and a wig, then opened the door to show her boys.
“The 2- and the 4-year-old looked at me for, like, a second, then just kept playing,” Janae says and laughs. “The 6-year-old said, ‘Daddy, you look like a girl…A really big girl,’ and then he kept playing, too. I think that’s the thing that bothers me most when I hear people talk about transgender issues. It’s always, ‘What about the kids?’ Kids don’t have prejudice unless you hand it to them. I’m incredibly proud of my boys because they’ve been my biggest supporters, and they’ve taken that awareness with them to school. If anyone gets called gay or a fag, my eldest son is the first one to speak up and say, ‘And what’s wrong with that?’”
Selfish is lying to your wife and your children every day to shield them from the truth.
Are behaviors which are nuetral in they’re effect on society acceptable? Cause as far as I can see trans behavior is a net nuetral.
I don’t personally know any transgendered people. Knowing an individual that you like and can relate to as a person in many levels, is good for both parties.
I can look the other way about an individuals peculiarities that I may not agree with like extreme religious views, differing political views, or OCD behaviour if I can relate them on another level(usually several other levels). That is my choice and I can’t expect someone else to tolerate what they consider undesirable behaviour.
My experience 25 years ago in art school, involved mixing with all kinds of weird and wonderful individuals. Many of them were extremely likeable people despite different sexuality, and political views.(back in the day transgenderism was not a prominent issue). One thing I did notice is that most were prone to mental illness, especially bipolar, extreme behaviour, and drug addiction to hard core narcotics. It did not imbue me with confidence, in their ability to make the best decisions for themselves, let alone for other people, that they were involved with.
The occasional one did have their shit together and new what that wanted, and went about it in a quite and confident manner. They weren’t the extremist types, and didn’t define themselves only by their sexuality, that was only one aspect of their lives.
I tried them, but they gave me limp wrists.
“Selfish is lying to your wife and your children every day to shield them from the truth.”
Yes it is. But it isn’t 1950, and its been a long time since people with varied sexuality have needed to hide behind a mask. If he was so unsure about himself why did he choose to have a wife and children? I’m beating he wasn’t very honest to his wife about the extent of his transgender feelings when he went into the relationship, or had kids.
At a young age children are very impressionable and its not a very big step for them to accept that their dad is now a “woman”.
The problem arises as the children grow up and find out that this is extremely unusual behaviour. They are left to deal with their parents issues.
That’s the thing, the argument here seems to be “well, why not?”.
Isn’t what you say applicable to everyone, everywhere?
In my opinion conservatives (which you strike me as being) need to embrace everyone, everywhere, and show people that identity politics isn’t a good way forward. Common values are, like working hard and spending your time pursuing things that make you a better person and help the people around you.
Sure, there are transgender people with ridiculous demands who expect complete deference based on their perceived victim status. Canada’s bill C-16 is something I generally oppose, and I’ve had a frank conversation about that with my transgender friend. I don’t think we need to enshrine wacky and ever-changing pronouns in law or policy. Too many good people can get trampled when legal harassment in Ontario can include messing up someone’s pronouns.
On the same note, there’s no need for authoritarian measures that attempt to force an outcome that doesn’t align with how people actually behave. Bathroom laws are a great example. It wasn’t even on the radar for years, decades or centuries, but THEY walked among us for that entire time.
Some of that can be laid at the feet of trans people who expect total deference and special accommodations, just as some can be laid at the feet of people who feel uncomfortable when they see someone in a dress with an Adam’s apple. It seems to me like a solutions should be easy to find for everyone. Be nice to each other and be cautious of situations that seem like they could be dangerous. Predatory behaviors like assault, rape and harassment are illegal and should be prosecuted no matter what floats the offenders’ boat.
We need to reject extreme notions like that without being assholes or judging people on superficial characteristics.
You know, you could just read the article. His wife knew when he married her. He chose to have a wife and children because he’s attracted to women. He was never unsure about who he was, but there’s a whole group of people cough cough who disapprove of transgender people and it makes it hard for some people to admit who they are and how they feel. If, as you say:
then there wouldn’t be any debate regarding transgender people today, and transgender people wouldn’t be murdered at disporportionate rates. But they are.
You don’t think that they would try something like that in the US? They already have violent protests opposing free speech, they literally say they oppose free speech. In Canada we officially have free speech, at least that’s what they tell us, but it’s more like you can say anything that isn’t on the list of stuff you can say. And that is our definition of freedom.
“I’ve worried a lot about how this would affect my boys, but if I postpone everything, what am I teaching them?” she asks. “That you should conform to society’s expectations? That you should suppress who you are to make everyone else happy? I think that’s the worst lesson I could teach them.”
Patty knew about her husband’s true identity as a transgender woman from the beginning.
Two more quotes from the article, since you’re replying based totally on assumptions that directly contradict everything Kroc said.
Acceptable? Some people tolerate things, but it doesn’t mean they have to bend over backwards for them, let alone celebrate something they don’t like.
I still think its too early to be sure that transgenderism is net neutral. No one really knows the effects yet. 30 years ago gay marriage was thought to be a ridiculous idea, now its almost mainstream. We won’t know about transgenderism effects for a while yet. There are videos from Europe(maybe Sweden) where various drag queens and TG, read stories to young children at playgroup or school, some of whom sit on the tranny’s lap. I find that disturbing.
Or course they will try it.
I see that more as a natural and expected outgrowth of identity politics than I do the benign behavior of trans people in everyday situations.
We can oppose the former and embrace the latter. Not an easy sell, I know, but I think people are more receptive to reasonable ideas than we like to give them credit for.
I don’t really see anything to embrace here, more like ignore it. Out of sight, out of mind. When people do socially unacceptable things and try to get attention, then don’t like the attention they get, I really can’t feel sorry for them. As you said,
And there was no problem, and nobody complained about anything. What happened now is that leftists have taken it upon themselves to champion this new cause, and it’s only natural that people who can still think for themselves would be opposed.
I’m sure Matt has convinced himself that what he’s done isn’t a selfish act. Everyone that does a selfish act does so.
He could have told his mrs that he liked dressing up in womens lingerie, but only he really new the extent of what he wanted. Some wives have a habit of justifying their husbands actions, whether its infidelity, or an extreme thing like incest. I know several people whose mother knew that their father was molesting them. The mother wilfully looked the other way, or at least was in denial about the situation.
Well, in simple terms, you embrace it by accepting benign behaviors that don’t impact you or anyone you care about. Ignoring it works fine too, generally speaking. Just leave people alone.
Opposing C-16 is another animal altogether, and I don’t know enough about Canadian politics to offer up any meaningful advice. Call up your Canadian Congressmen/Lords/Kings or whatever it is you have there and say “Hey dere buddy, I’d really appreciate it if you cood maybe think aboot maybe not putting me into da jail foor callin dat fella a tranny instead of a majestic xhe. Just put me in da penalty box and I’ll feel shame.”
Okay so now you’ve drawn a parallel between incest/rape and transsexuality. This is where our discussion ends. Do read the article, though - it’s quite interesting, whether you agree with this whole situation or not. At the very least, browse it before you become a champion for Kroc’s kids and explain her decisions away while ignoring everything that was publicly stated in the article.