Men afraid of commitment?

[quote]groo wrote:
I think much of this can be analyzed in a simple view of reality show singing competitions:

Women:

Men…even super shy fat young men:

Okay, but I would bet money that the young man’s partner would have given him a big, sincere hug and told him to go on alone if he’d looked to her to decide. Because she was obviously miles above the first set of girls in terms of maturity and general good egg-ness. Which is why she was on with a super shy fat young man instead of looking for a couple of tarted up girls to perform with.

Both of the second pair shone with character. None of the first three did.

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Emily I hope you find the right guy and figure out what it is about your personality that exposes or creates the insecurities you find so repulsive.

Chushin, from what I can gather about Emily I agree with you completely. She’s very complicated… But what she communicates rather than her ability to communicate is the facet I’m talking about. What is more curious is someone who has a mastery at relationships, but can’t seem to use those masterful tools to fix herself is communicating on a forum full of amateur’s, and you single me out. We have had our differences, don’t know why it has to come to this thread which is why I’m out. Cheers. [/quote]

TNation is a good resource for me because my close friends are all very alike to me. Smart, loyal - and female. I know men, obviously, but my field is female-dominated and besides, I can’t imagine spilling my guts to a male coworker or girlfriend’s husband. Which means that the men I’m intimate enough with to talk about this stuff are the men I’m in romantic relationships with.

I was married for approximately one thousand years and then went very quickly into another long term thing, so my dating skills lag behind my other skills - or maybe it’s fairer to say that the skill set I developed was one designed to sustain relationships rather than evaluate them, and that’s problematic for me now, when I’m trying to assess men rather than bond them to me.

I understand my traits and I know what draws men to me. At work it’s essential that I create trust and a bond very quickly and I’m good at that. People trust me, to a degree that often startles me. So I know that men meet me, find me funny and interesting to talk to (I’m fun as well as a good listener) and at the same time feel that I would be good long term material because of the trustworthy thing I seem to radiate. I also work out and have an outstanding body and an acceptable face. The guys with librarian fetishes like me, and particularly if we get as far as kissing and my nicely contained curls wind up loose and in my face.

So. That’s me. I’m pretty clear on that piece. It’s the men and what their words and actions mean that catches me short. So here I am, asking.

I had to cut the hunter guy loose. Last weekend’s ovulatory decision that he’s sexy seemed to spur him to even greater heights of adoration and clinginess. I had to break up before he proposed. (And it was a genuine breakup! With bitterness and everything. After what, three weeks? OMG.)

So, to recap my failures:
*Flat, depressed husband “just wanted to be left alone” to watch TV - no good. Must change up.
*Fun, bright, crazy energy, sexy, but restless guy craved conflict and cheated - no good. Must change up.
*Cerebral, maybe very rich guy boring and increasingly snooty, plus not sexy - no good. Must change up.
*Fantastic body, good cook, very tidy, works with hands guy completely suffocating - no good. Must change up.

:-/

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Conflict is stressful, and disappointing someone you care about is even worse. Which is why we tend to suppress stuff and then eventually blow.
[/quote]
No man appreciates this lol. Search your feelings; you know it to be true. That’s okay though; at least you seem to possess uncanny loyalty. That trumps most faults imo.[/quote]

I’d never really thought about it this way, but I suppose it makes sense considering the general differences in the ways girls and boys are raised. Specifically, in the ways they deal with confrontation. Boys seem to be taught to deal directly with reality from an early age, feelings be damned, whereas girls tend to be more coddled.[/quote]
I think this is wildly inaccurate. Women have a much more solid grasp of rational self interest than men in my experience. Just because they go about it differently doesn’t mean they don’t deal with reality. Its just likely often much more calculated than you see out of many especially young men.[/quote]

Scratch the last sentence of what I wrote. I was trying to provide an example, but worded it poorly. I meant it more in the sense that boys are taught to take a more direct approach (either actually taught that, or through modeling), and girls are taught to take a more indirect approach.

I still think the rest of my post is correct, that there are differences taught during childhood about how to deal with conflict and confrontation that lead to conflict later on because of differing value systems.[/quote]

Not to turn into Orion but I think that many things are learned by women in childhood in the Western world that lead to duplicitous behavior that benefits them. I can’t really find fault with say holding onto double standards that benefit them as it is really self interest but its certainly often calculated and certainly less straightforward.

The first post of the thread would sort of point to this. Instead of simply being honest there is some deception involved to allow one party to maintain a bit of a double standard. Either to be able at some later date to use the unclear nature of the situation to claim either an exclusivity or a free reign to circumscribe the behavior of one party or to excuse the behavior of the other.
[/quote]

But my goal in starting the thread was to better understand how to be clear and honest without being insulting. Because men are supposed to be the ones playing the field and reluctant to settle in with one person, I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very.

Also, I think coddled is partly accurate, but we’re also taught not to make waves. Girls are expected to be sweet and pretty, and assuming we meet that standard will be coddled when hurt. “Difficult” or unfeminine girls are not coddled. I see that as the origin of the communication issue. We hesitate to create conflict because we’re taught from the cradle not to.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I love being coddled and am always anxious to report any terrible injury I’ve sustained (“my finger is hurt!”) in order to get verbal sympathy from women and hugs and such from men. :slight_smile:

The end is near.

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
The end is near.[/quote]

I wonder if I should make some signs reminding everyone to repent?

Orion, you’d better hurry up and repent, there’s not much time left!

[quote] groo wrote:
I think much of this can be analyzed in a simple view of reality show singing competitions:

Women:

Men…even super shy fat young men:

[/quote]

Trying to split acts up on camera is a cheap tactic to create drama. The judges don’t audition every single person; there isn’t enough time.
Every applicant has to audition in front of a panel of producers to qualify for the televised auditions. That’s why the bad singers get so pissed. Their confidence is boosted by getting through the preliminaries, then Cowell rips them a new asshole and blames their family for encouraging them to audition on national TV.

Same goes for that “do you have a second song?” nonsense. . he knows they have a second song which is better than the first thanks to the producers notes.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
The end is near.[/quote]

I wonder if I should make some signs reminding everyone to repent?

Orion, you’d better hurry up and repent, there’s not much time left![/quote]

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I had to cut the hunter guy loose. Last weekend’s ovulatory decision that he’s sexy seemed to spur him to even greater heights of adoration and clinginess. I had to break up before he proposed. (And it was a genuine breakup! With bitterness and everything. After what, three weeks? OMG.)

So, to recap my failures:
*Flat, depressed husband “just wanted to be left alone” to watch TV - no good. Must change up.
*Fun, bright, crazy energy, sexy, but restless guy craved conflict and cheated - no good. Must change up.
*Cerebral, maybe very rich guy boring and increasingly snooty, plus not sexy - no good. Must change up.
*Fantastic body, good cook, very tidy, works with hands guy completely suffocating - no good. Must change up.

:-/

[/quote]
**Note to self

Lol

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
The end is near.[/quote]

I wonder if I should make some signs reminding everyone to repent?

Orion, you’d better hurry up and repent, there’s not much time left![/quote]

[/quote]
Yes! Well done.

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
The end is near.[/quote]

I wonder if I should make some signs reminding everyone to repent?

Orion, you’d better hurry up and repent, there’s not much time left![/quote]

[/quote]
Yes! Well done.[/quote]

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

But my goal in starting the thread was to better understand how to be clear and honest without being insulting. Because men are supposed to be the ones playing the field and reluctant to settle in with one person, I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very.

Also, I think coddled is partly accurate, but we’re also taught not to make waves. Girls are expected to be sweet and pretty, and assuming we meet that standard will be coddled when hurt. “Difficult” or unfeminine girls are not coddled. I see that as the origin of the communication issue. We hesitate to create conflict because we’re taught from the cradle not to.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I love being coddled and am always anxious to report any terrible injury I’ve sustained (“my finger is hurt!”) in order to get verbal sympathy from women and hugs and such from men. :)[/quote]

I’m so sorry to hear about your terribly painful break-up.

;-)[/quote]

Thanks, but I think I screwed it up because it looks like I’ve accidentally gotten back together with him. I’m trying to work out what to do next. He apologized vigorously, so I don’t know whether to give it another chance, which he seems to already believe we are, or what. But give another chance to a relationship I believe isn’t going to work anyway? That seems kind of dumb.

I’m thinking about adding this incomplete breakup to my list of failures.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

But my goal in starting the thread was to better understand how to be clear and honest without being insulting. Because men are supposed to be the ones playing the field and reluctant to settle in with one person, I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very.

Also, I think coddled is partly accurate, but we’re also taught not to make waves. Girls are expected to be sweet and pretty, and assuming we meet that standard will be coddled when hurt. “Difficult” or unfeminine girls are not coddled. I see that as the origin of the communication issue. We hesitate to create conflict because we’re taught from the cradle not to.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I love being coddled and am always anxious to report any terrible injury I’ve sustained (“my finger is hurt!”) in order to get verbal sympathy from women and hugs and such from men. :)[/quote]

I’m so sorry to hear about your terribly painful break-up.

;-)[/quote]

Thanks, but I think I screwed it up because it looks like I’ve accidentally gotten back together with him. I’m trying to work out what to do next. He apologized vigorously, so I don’t know whether to give it another chance, which he seems to already believe we are, or what. But give another chance to a relationship I believe isn’t going to work anyway? That seems kind of dumb.

[/quote]

If you thought per-pseudo-breakup hunter guy was overly clingy and adoring, I expect you’ve seen nothing compared to post-pseudo-breakup-begged-for-an-got-second-chance breakup guy.

You know how when a condemned man gets an 11th hour reprieve…

Anyway, at least you’ll get some more practice breaking up, which it appears that you might benefit from :wink:

Just try to get it done sometime in the next 28 days so…

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

But my goal in starting the thread was to better understand how to be clear and honest without being insulting. Because men are supposed to be the ones playing the field and reluctant to settle in with one person, I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very.

Also, I think coddled is partly accurate, but we’re also taught not to make waves. Girls are expected to be sweet and pretty, and assuming we meet that standard will be coddled when hurt. “Difficult” or unfeminine girls are not coddled. I see that as the origin of the communication issue. We hesitate to create conflict because we’re taught from the cradle not to.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I love being coddled and am always anxious to report any terrible injury I’ve sustained (“my finger is hurt!”) in order to get verbal sympathy from women and hugs and such from men. :)[/quote]

I’m so sorry to hear about your terribly painful break-up.

;-)[/quote]

Thanks, but I think I screwed it up because it looks like I’ve accidentally gotten back together with him. I’m trying to work out what to do next. He apologized vigorously, so I don’t know whether to give it another chance, which he seems to already believe we are, or what. But give another chance to a relationship I believe isn’t going to work anyway? That seems kind of dumb.

I’m thinking about adding this incomplete breakup to my list of failures.[/quote]

Ah, I’d re-frame it as successfully creating an opening. Hunter guy has to know about rebounding. I’ve been rebound guy a couple of times and it really isn’t bad. Knowing that a woman has just gotten out of a long term relationship and isn’t ready to jump right into another- but still has some needs to be fulfilled- is kinda nice.

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote] groo wrote:
I think much of this can be analyzed in a simple view of reality show singing competitions:

Women:

Men…even super shy fat young men:

[/quote]

Trying to split acts up on camera is a cheap tactic to create drama. The judges don’t audition every single person; there isn’t enough time.
Every applicant has to audition in front of a panel of producers to qualify for the televised auditions. That’s why the bad singers get so pissed. Their confidence is boosted by getting through the preliminaries, then Cowell rips them a new asshole and blames their family for encouraging them to audition on national TV.

Same goes for that “do you have a second song?” nonsense. . he knows they have a second song which is better than the first thanks to the producers notes. [/quote]
This isn’t particularly relevant though. Cetainly at some point they should have been told something by someone if they are truly bad. If they are merely marginal they could have been passed because they got lucky then they didn’t get so lucky. But nonetheless if you were on with a couple of your friends can you conceive if either leaving the group you left with to move forward or not volunteering to leave the group if you were truly standing in one of your friend’s way?

" I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very."

I’d say this is arguable at least in relation to the specific person you were trying to relate such a message to.

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote] groo wrote:
I think much of this can be analyzed in a simple view of reality show singing competitions:

Women:

Men…even super shy fat young men:

[/quote]

Trying to split acts up on camera is a cheap tactic to create drama. The judges don’t audition every single person; there isn’t enough time.
Every applicant has to audition in front of a panel of producers to qualify for the televised auditions. That’s why the bad singers get so pissed. Their confidence is boosted by getting through the preliminaries, then Cowell rips them a new asshole and blames their family for encouraging them to audition on national TV.

Same goes for that “do you have a second song?” nonsense. . he knows they have a second song which is better than the first thanks to the producers notes. [/quote]
This isn’t particularly relevant though. Cetainly at some point they should have been told something by someone if they are truly bad. If they are merely marginal they could have been passed because they got lucky then they didn’t get so lucky. But nonetheless if you were on with a couple of your friends can you conceive if either leaving the group you left with to move forward or not volunteering to leave the group if you were truly standing in one of your friend’s way?[/quote]

Character is character. How many guys have slept with a friend’s girl? How many men the age of the three young women have run when in the middle of a prank or crime that went bad, leaving a buddy to take the heat?

Plenty, would be my guess. Self-centered immaturity is not a gender-specific trait.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

But my goal in starting the thread was to better understand how to be clear and honest without being insulting. Because men are supposed to be the ones playing the field and reluctant to settle in with one person, I seem to have no script for slowing or pausing forward motion without seeming to indicate that I’m not interested in monogamy, which I am, very.

Also, I think coddled is partly accurate, but we’re also taught not to make waves. Girls are expected to be sweet and pretty, and assuming we meet that standard will be coddled when hurt. “Difficult” or unfeminine girls are not coddled. I see that as the origin of the communication issue. We hesitate to create conflict because we’re taught from the cradle not to.

In the interest of full disclosure I will say that I love being coddled and am always anxious to report any terrible injury I’ve sustained (“my finger is hurt!”) in order to get verbal sympathy from women and hugs and such from men. :)[/quote]

I’m so sorry to hear about your terribly painful break-up.

;-)[/quote]

Thanks, but I think I screwed it up because it looks like I’ve accidentally gotten back together with him. I’m trying to work out what to do next. He apologized vigorously, so I don’t know whether to give it another chance, which he seems to already believe we are, or what. But give another chance to a relationship I believe isn’t going to work anyway? That seems kind of dumb.

I’m thinking about adding this incomplete breakup to my list of failures.[/quote]

Ah, I’d re-frame it as successfully creating an opening. Hunter guy has to know about rebounding. I’ve been rebound guy a couple of times and it really isn’t bad. Knowing that a woman has just gotten out of a long term relationship and isn’t ready to jump right into another- but still has some needs to be fulfilled- is kinda nice.
[/quote]

I don’t think he could handle that, and probably neither could I.

Am I a snotty bitch? :frowning:

I’m giving up on all people, even women.

OH! But I have to report about my RL lesbian party! So I’m going back to my old area, which I left to follow the boyfriend. When I worked with my best friend, who works now for the company I’m joining, we used to talk about becoming lesbians together if (when!) the men thing didn’t work, and one of the main appeals of it was the lesbian party, because all the lesbians we know are always having nice parties and visiting friends at the coast and such, while we’re here dealing with difficult men.

So anyway, got a group text from her asking about my move date, which is Dec 2nd, and saying “So we’ll have our lesbian wine party on the 3rd?”

So during computer training on Thursday I brought it up to the friend, who was there because she’s switching over to the program I’m being trained in, saying I can’t wait for our lesbian party. But guess whether my new boss, who was training us, is a lesbian? Yes, readers, she IS. So now I have to worry that I’ve seemed mocking. Which I’m not! I’m envious. Of everything but the sex.

I worked with her partner, a psychiatrist, and we’re friendly. I wonder if they have many parties?? Assuming they don’t both hate me now for being a filthy homophobe as well as a snotty bitch.