Men afraid of commitment?

Off Topic
41

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Really? Under what circumstances? Is this a myth, meant to confuse women further? As if your regular incomprehensible behavior isn’t enough!

Because once again I find myself doing a deer-in-the-headlights thing as someone begins pushing in that direction, i.e. exclusivity. And we’ve been seeing each other only briefly, no sex.

So my question for the board is, how is this best handled?

I don’t understand men. Except orion.
[/quote]

Well, either you are super awesome or he needs a woman in his life.

Any woman really.

44

I don’t even want to commit to this thread, but something in my curiosity was piqued. Not sure what.

45

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I’m not sure what the question is, if there is one.

People are still largely products of their culture and our culture still holds the “fuck a lot in your early 20s, settle down find a wife and start a family by your 30s” as the norm. Ive seen a few of my friends get married at like 22/23 god knows why, but it usually didnt last very long.

A friend of mine was on a fast track towards marriage, not of his own volition, but it seemed to be progressing down that path with no concerns from him before the girl got cold feet and fucked off back to her home, upon which she got engaged to some dude she had been friendzoning for however many years, within like a few months of the breakup too. Complete 180 in man choice too, friend is a good looking tall charismatic tradesman, the dude she got engaged to is this foppish trumpet player or some shit.
[/quote]
Did the trumpet player get a solid, steady gig with a major orchestra or a major band? A lot of women like musicians; add security to that and maybe the combination is a “winner”?
[/quote]

Not that I know of but shes from vineyard family society, so toffee nosed and all that shit, dating a rough and tough tradie probably doesn’t sit well with mom and dad. He did mention when he went with her to meet her family he was utterly out of place at the social functions and it showed.

Thing if the quality of “breadwinner” is the concern, tradies are paid ridiculously well due to high demand for certain skilled trades at the moment. Mate has just turned 21 already has his own unit, two cars, a motorbike and whatever else he cares to purchase.

Ive seen pictures of the dude and while I’m sure he’s a nice dude she dropped a real good catch in all respects for the kind of dude who begs for sex yknow.

The security thing you’re probably on point with, a good looking dude who is very young is a huge flight risk I guess.

46

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:
An open relationship isn’t for everyone, you need to be very secure. [/quote]
I don’t agree with that terminology. I think the parties involved just have to not care about various aspects of the relationship.

47

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I’m not sure what the question is, if there is one.

People are still largely products of their culture and our culture still holds the “fuck a lot in your early 20s, settle down find a wife and start a family by your 30s” as the norm. Ive seen a few of my friends get married at like 22/23 god knows why, but it usually didnt last very long.

A friend of mine was on a fast track towards marriage, not of his own volition, but it seemed to be progressing down that path with no concerns from him before the girl got cold feet and fucked off back to her home, upon which she got engaged to some dude she had been friendzoning for however many years, within like a few months of the breakup too. Complete 180 in man choice too, friend is a good looking tall charismatic tradesman, the dude she got engaged to is this foppish trumpet player or some shit.
[/quote]
Did the trumpet player get a solid, steady gig with a major orchestra or a major band? A lot of women like musicians; add security to that and maybe the combination is a “winner”?
[/quote]

Not that I know of but shes from vineyard family society, so toffee nosed and all that shit, dating a rough and tough tradie probably doesn’t sit well with mom and dad. He did mention when he went with her to meet her family he was utterly out of place at the social functions and it showed.

Thing if the quality of “breadwinner” is the concern, tradies are paid ridiculously well due to high demand for certain skilled trades at the moment. Mate has just turned 21 already has his own unit, two cars, a motorbike and whatever else he cares to purchase.

Ive seen pictures of the dude and while I’m sure he’s a nice dude she dropped a real good catch in all respects for the kind of dude who begs for sex yknow.

The security thing you’re probably on point with, a good looking dude who is very young is a huge flight risk I guess.
[/quote]
That thing about the tradesman not fitting in at her family’s social functions and not meeting her family’s cultural expectations could have influenced her decision.

I wasn’t thinking in terms of the tradesman being a concern in terms of quality of “breadwinner” nor in terms of flight risk. I was thinking maybe she could be one of those who has a thing for musicians, and the reason she didn’t go for the trumpet player earlier was because there was a concern with the trumpet player’s breadwinning. And then maybe, the trumpet player’s economic situation might have improved.

I suppose your guess is more likely than mine. But musicians, foppish or not, do have a certain magic to them for some women.

49

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It depends on the guy, I think. After my early years of short term uncommitted banging around I looked forward to commitment with the right woman. A pretty distinct theme of similar characteristics which I liked in a woman had developed, and I finally found one I wanted to settle down and start a family with (she felt the same way too), so that is what we did. Earlier this month we celebrated our 6 year anniversary of marriage and yesterday was our sons first birthday.

On the other hand I have known a few guys who have always been very insecure and act like they have lost a limb if they don’t have a girlfriend. When they are single their one and only goal is to lock a woman down into a commitment (but not marriage), and until they do they are the whiniest most discontent entanglement of neurosis you can imagine. I speculate that they don’t feel like a man unless they have a woman on lock down, but at the same time since they know their own self (in a bad way)- don’t feel like they are good enough and have to keep proving their manhood (the ability to get women). One of the bad parts of these types of guys is that they will act like they are willing to jump through every imaginable hoop just for the right girl, but it’s all a lie.

Henry Rollins sums them up pretty well with this-

,and then it’s on to the next one.
[/quote]

Hmm. I don’t know. My limited experience is pretty much all long term relationships, and I believe that they’ve all exited reluctantly, or became reluctant after I said “enough,” and finally meant it, which takes a while for me.

I don’t think my question is about cheating - I shouldn’t have muddied things - more about how I can handle probing about what I’m doing with regard to dating others without being dishonest and without discouraging the questioner. Early dating things.

I just feel like my experience is the exact opposite of the stereotypical evasive guy, hopeful woman. Except it IS true, I am looking for a relationship (love) but just, I don’t know, not so quickly and before I’ve had time to catch my breath and kiss a couple of men, or maybe three, and see.

[/quote]

Yeah, I probably wasn’t so clear either. It takes a while to distill nebulous thoughts into succinct statement. The time frame I was speaking of is more than just a few months- More like a couple of years before it goes kaput.

I didn’t mean cheating either. More along the lines of a mans tendency to be dishonest about basic drives like sex, sense of security, vulnerability, Stuff like that. When a man says he is willing to forgo some of the basics he is not being honest with himself. Not honest with the other person either.

Given that I’m a probably more than a little aspy, I hit this stuff directly and appreciate the same in return. Sometimes that delicate dance around certain subjects like “what do you want out of this” just turns into a clumsy mess of ulterior motives and tickling each others ears.

So yeah, Honesty. Thats the best way to approach that getting to know each other phase. In any long term relationship I’ve been in I have said very quickly “Don’t tell me what you want me to think you are. Lets just do some stuff together and let me get to know you.”. Everybody loves world peace and thinks puppies are cute, but if a woman goes hiking with me after saying she loves hiking- but doesn’t have the shoes and hates it the whole time- She lied. Vice Versa- I’m not willing to act like I enjoy dinner theater nor would I make any attempt to do so just to develop a relationship.
[/quote]

Yeah, I agree. At this point I’m as likely to lead with my negatives, with which I’m pretty comfortable, as I’m also well aware of my strengths. A funny early conversation my ex-bf and I had was about what we’ve been called. I copped to “insufferable know-it-all,” while he admitted to having been recently called “a pompous prick.” Which was true on both sides.

But back to the point, because I think I do a good job of selecting men I like and who like me, with everyone cheerfully acknowledging flaws, what do I say when they start saying things like “just so you know, I’m not seeing anyone else” or asking about others? Should I decide these are the sorts of men I should seek or should avoid, or what?

AC, where are you? I’m ready for Phase II.[/quote]

I’m HERE! Let me read the whole thing before I offer my sage advice. So far, not enough info either way. He could just really be into you, or he could be weak and clingy. I’ll reply again after I read the thread.

50

[quote]theBeth wrote:
Wow. I am not qualified to contribute to this thread. I don’t know if there’s any such thing as true commitment or fidelity and I wish I was a willowy thing with librarian glasses who only attracted geeky intelligent types instead of narcissists and sociopaths.

I AM writing a paper on polyamory, however. Anyone got input on that?[/quote]

Ask away. Been there, done that, several times. In several configurations.

51

Here’s a novel idea for you, Em: TRY staying single for a while. Play the field a little. (not telling you to sleep with a bunch of dudes, but DATE a few)

Reading into the VERY FEW details you’ve chosen to share, I’d guess this guy met you while you were with someone else, became attracted to your sexy librarian glasses, and waited around until it didn’t work out with the other guy. Now, he’s trying to lock you down before you get out there because he feels an almost narcissistic sense of “entitlement” to you - after all, in his mind, he’s put in a fair share of “work” by waiting. We have a word for that: ORBITER. Red flag, in MY book. Being an orbiter is neither an aggressive nor a masculine trait, by the way. Unless you choose to share more info that may color the situation differently, I’d avoid any immediate commitment with this one with out some more due diligence. Sounds like a classic beta “nice guy” to me. And they are the most subtly manipulative and passive aggressive types out there. I would make it a POINT to date other people and make sure he knows it. Note his reaction. If it’s anger and impotent frustration, then he’s weak and has low self esteem. If he rises to the challenge, then let him win you. You’re worth fighting for.

You’re gun shy, uncertain and on the rebound (several times over, by my count). Why not take a little time for YOU? I’m sure your “shelf life” is fine. Figure out what YOU want. Play the field a little. Prince Charming might be just over the next hill. Wouldn’t you want to be open to that and not “locked down”?

Sounds like you’re more interested in protecting his feelings than you are in following what YOU WANT. He stepped on his dick and he KNOWS it - he was premature. Punish him a little for that - he shouldn’t get a free pass. After all, if he fails the basic simple test of having PATIENCE, then he deserves some more observation while under stress. Feel free to add more data if you like if you feel I’m off target here.

52

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:
An open relationship isn’t for everyone, you need to be very secure. [/quote]
I don’t agree with that terminology. I think the parties involved just have to not care about various aspects of the relationship.[/quote]

Care to elaborate?

53

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I’m not sure what the question is, if there is one.[/quote]

Question is: how do I gracefully handle questions or probing about whether I am dating others without damaging what may be a budding serious romance? So in other words, I want to give the potentially serious thing time to develop as it will, but without putting all my eggs in one basket. I don’t want to lie, and I don’t know what the correct phrasing or response is. I want to keep my options open.

[quote]People are still largely products of their culture and our culture still holds the “fuck a lot in your early 20s, settle down find a wife and start a family by your 30s” as the norm. Ive seen a few of my friends get married at like 22/23 god knows why, but it usually didnt last very long.

A friend of mine was on a fast track towards marriage, not of his own volition, but it seemed to be progressing down that path with no concerns from him before the girl got cold feet and fucked off back to her home, upon which she got engaged to some dude she had been friendzoning for however many years, within like a few months of the breakup too. Complete 180 in man choice too, friend is a good looking tall charismatic tradesman, the dude she got engaged to is this foppish trumpet player or some shit.[/quote]

This made me laugh. Thank you for sharing![/quote]

I suppose by just being honest with him… Reinforcing your interest but also making it clear that you don’t want to put the cart before the horse.

Your comments resonate with me because in the relationships I have been in, it was definitely the guy that was first to initiate exclusivity as well. Literally, from the age of 16 I was jumping from one long-term relationship to another (until I got married) with little “casual” dating in between. It wasn’t a conscious thing, it just seemed to work out that way.
[/quote]

Yes! 16, exactly!

One problem or factor is that I’m drawn to fairly aggressive/masculine men, and they tend to go after what they want. I think that may be something we women posting here share in common, hence our common experience. Deb, being slightly more assertive, simply says “no,” while I turn into a puddle of uncertainty.

I think I did exactly as you suggested, going back to my issue. He’s a nice guy, hopefully it will go down well.

[/quote]

Emily and Sturg, How are you meeting these guys? When your interested in someone do you ever make the first move? [/quote]

I have a history of acting SUPER socially awkward around attractive guys; morphing into the female equivalent of Napoleon Dynamite. So, making the first move would have been an epically badddddddd idea. [/quote]

LMAO! I’m surprised by that. It does explain the way you’ve been acting around me. You obviously have a crush. No worries Sturg, I will happily share my tator tots with you any day. :wink:

54

I love reading AC’s stuff. Also, how exactly does a girl make the first move? A smile and simply saying “hi” go a long way; if the guy has interest he will take it from there. I personally don’t like when a girl makes too much of an effort.

55

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
He’s a nice guy, hopefully it will go down well.

[/quote]

Not very likely[/quote]

It did! Not a problem at all. Possibly a positive result, if anything.

56

[quote]theBeth wrote:
Wow. I am not qualified to contribute to this thread. I don’t know if there’s any such thing as true commitment or fidelity and I wish I was a willowy thing with librarian glasses who only attracted geeky intelligent types instead of narcissists and sociopaths.

I AM writing a paper on polyamory, however. Anyone got input on that?[/quote]

To this point I seem to attract depression-prone and self-absorbed geeky intelligent types, who get gratuitously mad at me when they are unhappy with themselves, so I dunno that my glasses are necessarily winning this particular race.

PLUS, I can’t hang from the side of a cliff because I’m neither brave enough nor strong enough. And that’s a cool thing to do.

57

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]2busy wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
In no time we’d be zipping down the boulevard together under the gently swaying palms in my convertible with the top rolled down. Your long hair’d be whipping in the wind and a contented smile would adorn your lovely face as you leaned back in the seat soaking up the sunshine and breathing the ocean air.
[/quote]

…

Push, did you move?

I didn’t think there were palm trees where you live.[/quote]

No, me and da Em was havin’ us a tropical fantasy. I beez lurin’ her in.

Do you think I could land her if I’d typed:

[quote] push-the-honest-Injun wrote:

In no time we’d be sliding down US Highway 2 together under the leafless poplars bent halfway to the ground in a raging blizzard in my 1994 Ford Probe with bald tires with the -40* air leaking in the busted hatchback. Your long hair’d be frozen if you hadn’t blow-dried the shit outta it and a worried look would strain your lovely face as you leaned forward in the seat trying to help me stay on the road while secretly cursing yourself for ever agreeing to a Sunday afternoon ride in Big Sky country with the likes of Push Winchester Harder.

[/quote]

[/quote]

GOD, you’re sexy! I just assumed when reading the first post that palm trees materialize for you when you have a need for them.

58

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I’m not sure what the question is, if there is one.[/quote]

Question is: how do I gracefully handle questions or probing about whether I am dating others without damaging what may be a budding serious romance? So in other words, I want to give the potentially serious thing time to develop as it will, but without putting all my eggs in one basket. I don’t want to lie, and I don’t know what the correct phrasing or response is. I want to keep my options open.

[quote]People are still largely products of their culture and our culture still holds the “fuck a lot in your early 20s, settle down find a wife and start a family by your 30s” as the norm. Ive seen a few of my friends get married at like 22/23 god knows why, but it usually didnt last very long.

A friend of mine was on a fast track towards marriage, not of his own volition, but it seemed to be progressing down that path with no concerns from him before the girl got cold feet and fucked off back to her home, upon which she got engaged to some dude she had been friendzoning for however many years, within like a few months of the breakup too. Complete 180 in man choice too, friend is a good looking tall charismatic tradesman, the dude she got engaged to is this foppish trumpet player or some shit.[/quote]

This made me laugh. Thank you for sharing![/quote]

I suppose by just being honest with him… Reinforcing your interest but also making it clear that you don’t want to put the cart before the horse.

Your comments resonate with me because in the relationships I have been in, it was definitely the guy that was first to initiate exclusivity as well. Literally, from the age of 16 I was jumping from one long-term relationship to another (until I got married) with little “casual” dating in between. It wasn’t a conscious thing, it just seemed to work out that way.
[/quote]

Yes! 16, exactly!

One problem or factor is that I’m drawn to fairly aggressive/masculine men, and they tend to go after what they want. I think that may be something we women posting here share in common, hence our common experience. Deb, being slightly more assertive, simply says “no,” while I turn into a puddle of uncertainty.

I think I did exactly as you suggested, going back to my issue. He’s a nice guy, hopefully it will go down well.

[/quote]

Emily and Sturg, How are you meeting these guys? When your interested in someone do you ever make the first move? [/quote]

I have a history of acting SUPER socially awkward around attractive guys; morphing into the female equivalent of Napoleon Dynamite. So, making the first move would have been an epically badddddddd idea. [/quote]

Yes, though for me the problem only comes when I like someone well enough that there begin to be sexual undercurrents. It’s like I’m all awkward (spastic, almost) transparency and I can’t get my critical thinking stuff to work and I can’t make decisions and I start walking into walls. Which is why I move veeeeery slowly in the early process. Once there’s been more than a casual kiss, I get confused - and stay that way. It’s a nightmare!

Which is another reason I tend to move quickly into steady things.

Does that answer your question, Chushin? :-/

59

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]theBeth wrote:
Wow. I am not qualified to contribute to this thread. I don’t know if there’s any such thing as true commitment or fidelity and I wish I was a willowy thing with librarian glasses who only attracted geeky intelligent types instead of narcissists and sociopaths.

I AM writing a paper on polyamory, however. Anyone got input on that?[/quote]

To this point I seem to attract depression-prone and self-absorbed geeky intelligent types, who get gratuitously mad at me when they are unhappy with themselves, so I dunno that my glasses are necessarily winning this particular race.

PLUS, I can’t hang from the side of a cliff because I’m neither brave enough nor strong enough. And that’s a cool thing to do.[/quote]

If you want to be cool and hang off the side of a cliff, start with a 5.1 or a 5.2 - you are plenty strong enough for that, I assure you. Most women are better natural climbers than men because they are smart and rely more on their legs. Most guys rely on their arms and they gas out half way up.

60

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Here’s a novel idea for you, Em: TRY staying single for a while. Play the field a little. (not telling you to sleep with a bunch of dudes, but DATE a few)[/quote]

I’m TRYING!

[quote]Reading into the VERY FEW details you’ve chosen to share, I’d guess this guy met you while you were with someone else, became attracted to your sexy librarian glasses, and waited around until it didn’t work out with the other guy. Now, he’s trying to lock you down before you get out there because he feels an almost narcissistic sense of “entitlement” to you - after all, in his mind, he’s put in a fair share of “work” by waiting. We have a word for that: ORBITER. Red flag, in MY book. Being an orbiter is neither an aggressive nor a masculine trait, by the way. Unless you choose to share more info that may color the situation differently, I’d avoid any immediate commitment with this one with out some more due diligence. Sounds like a classic beta “nice guy” to me. And they are the most subtly manipulative and passive aggressive types out there. I would make it a POINT to date other people and make sure he knows it. Note his reaction. If it’s anger and impotent frustration, then he’s weak and has low self esteem. If he rises to the challenge, then let him win you. You’re worth fighting for.

You’re gun shy, uncertain and on the rebound (several times over, by my count). Why not take a little time for YOU? I’m sure your “shelf life” is fine. Figure out what YOU want. Play the field a little. Prince Charming might be just over the next hill. Wouldn’t you want to be open to that and not “locked down”?

Sounds like you’re more interested in protecting his feelings than you are in following what YOU WANT. He stepped on his dick and he KNOWS it - he was premature. Punish him a little for that - he shouldn’t get a free pass. After all, if he fails the basic simple test of having PATIENCE, then he deserves some more observation while under stress. Feel free to add more data if you like if you feel I’m off target here.[/quote]

I have a habit of worrying about others’ feelings in priority over my own. I’m trying to change that. I’ve returned to my therapist to speak specifically about rescue complexes and changing the “type” I go for, which issues are interrelated.

I don’t have time to give more details, but I think the guy in question is more complex (and less unpleasant) than you speculate. One of the things at play for me and for him is that we live in a low population area, so there aren’t available multitudes to choose from. I think also, looking for a moment at “game,” that I may have been so dubious previously and in starting to resume friendship (what I was willing to offer coming out of my recent relationship) that I somehow “negged” him into wanting to win a challenge, though the negs were all on my side (I feel very intimidated and outclassed by this guy) (or did, that’s reducing).

Also, something to consider is that things may work differently for people whose experience of long term relationships was largely positive, and he is one such. I think he, like me, sees it as the ideal IF you can find someone with enough integrity and whatever other qualities you most value.

Still, I have told him that I’m still actively exploring and been very clear that I’m determined not to lock myself in with anyone before I have had time to assure myself that I am ready. But that’s easier said than done for me.