[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
Um, is that not heading into the territory of being a tad misogynist?[/quote]
LOL. I love seeing people meet Orion.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Hostile work environment.
.[/quote]
Hostile Austrian.
:-)[/quote]
Remember the last one?[/quote]
Yeah. He was a better actor than he was a governor.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Here is the interesting thing:
If anyone felt the stronge urge to do so, you sometimes have ACs and my posts. replying to the same poster back to back.
80 to 90 % of times its more or less the same reply, emphasizing slightly different aspects of the situation, but hey…
Somehow it turns out however that I am bitter, jaded, musthavebeenhurtgaylivesinmomsbasement cantgetadategooglelistoffemaleshamingtactics, whereas he just knows whats going on.
Oh well…[/quote]
AC shows some capacity for flexibility of thought. The day he first added the “NOT ALL WOMEN” disclaimer, my heart swelled with pride.
He has consistently shown curiosity about others’ views, whether or not he ultimately agreed with them, and I feel like I’ve seen him change and grow. I would like to believe posters here who have been reading me for some time would say the same of me, both in terms of growth and openness. I’ve learned so much here, and it’s changed me. I don’t see that you’ve changed, though, orion.
I would also add that you have a nasty streak. You are the only one EVER, in my entire life - and I’ve been called a lot of things by various people along the way - the only one to EVER call me anything even remotely like a “cockhopper,” or whatever it was. I’m sure that’s not the only such comment, which say more about you than the people you say them to.
AC comes off as someone who likes women, but doesn’t trust them. You come off as someone who manipulates women because you like to get fucked, but who neither likes nor trusts them.
And for the record, I have steadfastly disagreed that AC “knows what’s going on” with women. I just acknowledge that he’s good at casual dating![/quote]
Yes, I do have a nasty streak, trust me, so does he.
I am 100% sure of that.
Also, NAWALT, AWALT, in some ways they are, in some ways they are not.
Depending on how deep you want to go, the more AWALT.
Finally, if you did not hop the cock there is no reason for you to be all flustered, if you cannot escape the urge to puff your feathers its either
a) you hopped the cock or
b) you are all indignant on behalf of women who indeed rode the carousel because, female sollipsism. [/quote]
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what hopping the cock is or why I would be indignant about other women’s sexual choices. Do I care how much sex other people have or with what variety of people? Why no, no I do not. Why on earth do you?
[/quote]
The cock carousel is what 30-40% of women get on in the hope to snatch one of the top 20% of men in their teens and twenties.
Why do I care:
a) because they ruin civilization while they do it. If they go feral, men will too and they already start doing it.
That means we can no longer rely on the surplus a patriarchy provides.
b) the only reason why cock hopping is an option is because in all Western states men provide 70-75% of all income, meaning, we still provide, but no woman has to take that into account because she receives those resources via the state.
c) personally I find it a tad difficult to deal with women. Not for the usual reason, they hem, they haw, they take it casually, until they get to know me better.
Then they want a relationship and all I can think about is… really?
I mean, they want all their options open, want to be sure to get the right one, and when they find out that there could be more its my job to tell them that they have ruined themselves so utterly that what they want is no longer possible for them?
Yeah, I could, they are right about that, but they cant.
NAWALT, maybe, but when it look whats on the market 80% of women necessarily are like that because the rest is not on the market. [/quote]
It’s funny that you think your perspective is devoid of emotion.
Anyhow, you and AC are not comparable for many reasons. I think the two of you may share some hostility towards women but I sense that AC has the capacity to care about women where you would refuse even if a woman worthy came along. So even if you say a similar message the commentary is still bitter and with an agenda where I think AC is genuinely sharing what he thinks will help another human.
And you’re mean 
Plus you talk a load of shit like the post above that makes you sound looney. You are in mentally dangerous territory when you personify an entire class of people as a single being with all women and their sins being any woman and all men as you.
yo orion didnt you have whinge here on the forums once detailing what some 'orrible bitch had done to you, and yet you claim to be devoid of emotion towards the situation, like you’re some sort of social scientist? LMAO
sexist, misogynist, or whatever, it still makes you a wanker Orion.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Em, I’m NOT trying to be an asshole when I write this, I swear. I would not take the time or make the effort if I did not genuinely care for you, so know that when you read this.
It’s a lack of mature boundary function coupled with an overblown sense of empathy compounded by a touch of blind, self indulgent humility. You have holes in your boundary. Period.
Boundary function:
Your career is YOURS. Navigating the waters toward better pay and better positions means that you have to play your cards close to your vest. Especially if you’ve allowed yourself to become “friends” with your boss. Such relationships are inappropriate. It’s perfectly fine to be “friendly”, “helpful”, “motivated”, “positive”, etc… with your boss. But FRIENDSHIP implies two individuals on EQUAL footing. The fact that she is your superior (therefore controlling critical aspects of your quality of life, time and livelihood) means that the “friendship” dynamic is Irrevocably skewed. Your “gut” knows this, which is why you are feeling such trepidation about talking to her about a possible change. But your “rational mind”, and your emotional landscape (protected by your porous boundary) is feeling guilt and shame. This will affect your relationship. You are acting as if you have the same standards for loyalty and fidelity with your job as you would with a marriage (or committed relationship). THIS IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.
Here’s what you owe your employer: Two weeks notice and a clean transition. THAT’S IT. You don’t owe them a heads up to start looking for your replacement before you get a position elsewhere. There are PLENTY of job applicants who would LOVE to apply for your position. You are replaceable, I promise.
Too much empathy:
You are walking on a slippery slope, my friend. In a relationship, the only consequence is a few bruised feelings and some emotional turmoil - something you are eminently qualified to deal with and process effectively. Your slippery boundaries with your JOB can affect your income, your insurance, your retirement, your ability to find work and the overall quality of your entire CAREER. That’s not something to risk by allowing emotional decisions to influence your career strategy.
The higher you get in “Life”, the higher the stakes. You are interviewing for a position that is better than where you are currently employed and SO ARE OTHER PEOPLE. Someone is going to “lose” the job if you get it. IF you get the job, you will have to leave your current one. FEELINGS WILL BE BRUISED. But bruises heal with time. Know that. If your boss/friend is really a friend, she will be happy for you that you’ve found something that will be more in alignment with your desires and professional development. If she is hurt or angry about you leaving, or if she views it as a betrayal, then SHE WAS NEVER YOUR FRIEND, she was just using an inappropriate employee retention strategy (consciously or unconsciously) so there’s no loss. Check your empathy at the door or, as we say in construction, “leave your feelings in the truck”.
A TOUCH of blind, self indulgent humility:
I hesitated a bit before putting this one in there because it sounds worse than it actually is. It’s the “nice guy/gal” syndrome. It’s the “politically correct” taken to illogical lengths. It’s where YOU get a secondary payoff by “suffering” as a result of a “noble” decision. You may sabotoge you career by tipping your hand too soon with your boss/friend, “but at least I had the integrity to be upfront and honest”. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT. Your job is not your husband. You don’t owe them a “heads up” that may turn around and bite you in the ass. YOUR career moves are YOURS. Make them with logic, maturity, honesty and respect. Not with guilt, shame, awkwardness and manipulation.
Your strategy spelled out: Take whatever personal days you need to prepare for your interviews - you have them, the days are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Do NOT tell your boss, or ANYONE you work with, or anyone in the same social circle as anyone you work with, that you are interviewing for another position. Go to as many interviews as it takes to show your potential employer how fucking awesome you are and how lucky they would be to have someone of your caliber on their team. When you are given the offer letter, let them know you need to give your current employer two weeks and a clean transition. They will expect this and understand. Type up your resignation letter and THEN tell your friend/boss, letter in hand, that you are leaving for greener pastures and that you are grateful for all the wonderful times you spent working here. Express appropriate interest in continuing your friendship. Place the letter on her desk and leave so she can process it. Show up to work the next day and be prepared to cooperate 110% with whatever procedure they need to find, hire and train your replacement. Make detailed transition notes on each of your cases. Give your clients reasonable closure if you feel it’s appropriate.
That will be $275.00 LOL[/quote]
Lots of good stuff in here, AC, but I think it suffers a bit from lack of knowledge regardng the nature of the “culture” of a MH center setting.[/quote]
I’m sure it’s like many offices, where the work/play/frienship boundaries get blurry. And that’s fine when you are just chuggin along and things are good. But when it’s time to leave or advance or otherwise “change”, you gotta look out for number one without stepping in number two. Many “work friendships” don’t survive one person or the other leaving the same place of employment. Which only goes to show you how much “weight” you should give such relationships and not compromise your career strategy for something ephemeral.[/quote]
Ok, first, most community mental health centers are populated primarily by women. And that includes the supervisory and admin positions. I know I don’t need to tell a chauvinist male pig like you that that can have implications for how things are done, and what is considered “appropriate.” 
Second, the very nature of the work makes it emotion-laden. The clients’ emotions are a key part of the work done there, and any therapist worth his / his salt recognizes that they also develop complex feelings that need to be attended to, processed and expressed appropriately. Emotion IS the coin of the ream in a MH center.
Next, the workers there are routinely dealing with the ugly, the bizarre, the dangerous, the pathetic, the shocking, and the pitiable aspects of human behavior. In this way, there are similarities to police work, and even to the military. Except that when that actively psychotic paranoid schizophrenic or that enraged child abusing father comes into your office, you DON’T have any weapons to defend yourself should the need arise. Or when that adolescent kid hangs himself some Friday night, unlike a cop, you can’t shrug and forget about it because you’ve been meeting with him for months and genuinely CARE about him. In a word, it is stressful, emotional, mental-health-robbing work in the trenches. And just like cops and soldiers develop deep ties with their co-workers, MH workers do, and they depend on each other to understand and to support them. In some ways, they can become like family.
Finally, by definition, the people who work in this setting are caring, empathic, emotionally-centered people. And their interactions about anything and everything demonstrate this.
My point is that what was appropriate and what were healthy boundaries when I worked for a trading company where worlds away from what was “normal” when I did MH work.
Again, your post was full of good stuff, but my point here is that context is also an important consideration, and the context of MH work is, in some ways, unique.
[/quote]
I’m pickin up what you’re layin down. [/quote]
Can you sense the furrowing of my brow from where you both are sitting? I SAID all that. Why did no one pick up what I laid down? Because I’m FEMALE???!! (J/K)
Chushin, interestingly, the last agency I worked for was weirdly well staffed by males, both clinicians and case managers. Not a ton of difference that I’ve noticed in the tone of the place, but then the guys there tended to be more empathic and relational than most men. It was nice having them because the more dangerous teen boys could go to them. Over the past month I’ve worked with in some capacity three boys closing in on or exceeding 200 pounds, and all of whom have a history of violence.
On the other hand, an adult male might be at more risk with these boys than a relatively slight female with a finely tuned “nonthreatening” vibe.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Em, I’m NOT trying to be an asshole when I write this, I swear. I would not take the time or make the effort if I did not genuinely care for you, so know that when you read this.
It’s a lack of mature boundary function coupled with an overblown sense of empathy compounded by a touch of blind, self indulgent humility. You have holes in your boundary. Period.
Boundary function:
Your career is YOURS. Navigating the waters toward better pay and better positions means that you have to play your cards close to your vest. Especially if you’ve allowed yourself to become “friends” with your boss. Such relationships are inappropriate. It’s perfectly fine to be “friendly”, “helpful”, “motivated”, “positive”, etc… with your boss. But FRIENDSHIP implies two individuals on EQUAL footing. The fact that she is your superior (therefore controlling critical aspects of your quality of life, time and livelihood) means that the “friendship” dynamic is Irrevocably skewed. Your “gut” knows this, which is why you are feeling such trepidation about talking to her about a possible change. But your “rational mind”, and your emotional landscape (protected by your porous boundary) is feeling guilt and shame. This will affect your relationship. You are acting as if you have the same standards for loyalty and fidelity with your job as you would with a marriage (or committed relationship). THIS IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.
Here’s what you owe your employer: Two weeks notice and a clean transition. THAT’S IT. You don’t owe them a heads up to start looking for your replacement before you get a position elsewhere. There are PLENTY of job applicants who would LOVE to apply for your position. You are replaceable, I promise.
Too much empathy:
You are walking on a slippery slope, my friend. In a relationship, the only consequence is a few bruised feelings and some emotional turmoil - something you are eminently qualified to deal with and process effectively. Your slippery boundaries with your JOB can affect your income, your insurance, your retirement, your ability to find work and the overall quality of your entire CAREER. That’s not something to risk by allowing emotional decisions to influence your career strategy.
The higher you get in “Life”, the higher the stakes. You are interviewing for a position that is better than where you are currently employed and SO ARE OTHER PEOPLE. Someone is going to “lose” the job if you get it. IF you get the job, you will have to leave your current one. FEELINGS WILL BE BRUISED. But bruises heal with time. Know that. If your boss/friend is really a friend, she will be happy for you that you’ve found something that will be more in alignment with your desires and professional development. If she is hurt or angry about you leaving, or if she views it as a betrayal, then SHE WAS NEVER YOUR FRIEND, she was just using an inappropriate employee retention strategy (consciously or unconsciously) so there’s no loss. Check your empathy at the door or, as we say in construction, “leave your feelings in the truck”.
A TOUCH of blind, self indulgent humility:
I hesitated a bit before putting this one in there because it sounds worse than it actually is. It’s the “nice guy/gal” syndrome. It’s the “politically correct” taken to illogical lengths. It’s where YOU get a secondary payoff by “suffering” as a result of a “noble” decision. You may sabotoge you career by tipping your hand too soon with your boss/friend, “but at least I had the integrity to be upfront and honest”. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT. Your job is not your husband. You don’t owe them a “heads up” that may turn around and bite you in the ass. YOUR career moves are YOURS. Make them with logic, maturity, honesty and respect. Not with guilt, shame, awkwardness and manipulation.
Your strategy spelled out: Take whatever personal days you need to prepare for your interviews - you have them, the days are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Do NOT tell your boss, or ANYONE you work with, or anyone in the same social circle as anyone you work with, that you are interviewing for another position. Go to as many interviews as it takes to show your potential employer how fucking awesome you are and how lucky they would be to have someone of your caliber on their team. When you are given the offer letter, let them know you need to give your current employer two weeks and a clean transition. They will expect this and understand. Type up your resignation letter and THEN tell your friend/boss, letter in hand, that you are leaving for greener pastures and that you are grateful for all the wonderful times you spent working here. Express appropriate interest in continuing your friendship. Place the letter on her desk and leave so she can process it. Show up to work the next day and be prepared to cooperate 110% with whatever procedure they need to find, hire and train your replacement. Make detailed transition notes on each of your cases. Give your clients reasonable closure if you feel it’s appropriate.
That will be $275.00 LOL[/quote]
You missed your calling.[/quote]
Thanks, but I’m just an ex-con without a HS diploma, bro. I got an advanced degree from the University of Hard Knocks and Stupid Mistakes! But I paid attention in class. LOL[/quote]
YOU (the general you) are why I love my work so much. I’m looking for the young you, the smart boys who are blowing out all over the place, so that you’ll have the support you need to go to college instead of jail. And I’m looking for the young me, too, of course, the girls no one is holding onto, who have frightened eyes and an air of false bravado.
If I have anything to say about it - and generally I have quite a lot to say, to schools, parents, protective services if things get that far - those kids will all safely reach adulthood, and the brightest of them leave me for college.
Hey, that’s pretty cool. I could have done with that a few years back.
As my father once said to me, “If you don’t leave now, I’m calling the police”
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Hostile work environment.
.[/quote]
Hostile Austrian.
:-)[/quote]
Remember the last one?[/quote]
Yeah. He was a better actor than he was a governor.
[/quote]
He was a better bodybuilder than he was an actor.
[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
sexist, misogynist, or whatever, it still makes you a wanker Orion.[/quote]
but he’s our wanker
Fair enough. I can respect that.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Em, I’m NOT trying to be an asshole when I write this, I swear. I would not take the time or make the effort if I did not genuinely care for you, so know that when you read this.
It’s a lack of mature boundary function coupled with an overblown sense of empathy compounded by a touch of blind, self indulgent humility. You have holes in your boundary. Period.
Boundary function:
Your career is YOURS. Navigating the waters toward better pay and better positions means that you have to play your cards close to your vest. Especially if you’ve allowed yourself to become “friends” with your boss. Such relationships are inappropriate. It’s perfectly fine to be “friendly”, “helpful”, “motivated”, “positive”, etc… with your boss. But FRIENDSHIP implies two individuals on EQUAL footing. The fact that she is your superior (therefore controlling critical aspects of your quality of life, time and livelihood) means that the “friendship” dynamic is Irrevocably skewed. Your “gut” knows this, which is why you are feeling such trepidation about talking to her about a possible change. But your “rational mind”, and your emotional landscape (protected by your porous boundary) is feeling guilt and shame. This will affect your relationship. You are acting as if you have the same standards for loyalty and fidelity with your job as you would with a marriage (or committed relationship). THIS IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.
Here’s what you owe your employer: Two weeks notice and a clean transition. THAT’S IT. You don’t owe them a heads up to start looking for your replacement before you get a position elsewhere. There are PLENTY of job applicants who would LOVE to apply for your position. You are replaceable, I promise.
Too much empathy:
You are walking on a slippery slope, my friend. In a relationship, the only consequence is a few bruised feelings and some emotional turmoil - something you are eminently qualified to deal with and process effectively. Your slippery boundaries with your JOB can affect your income, your insurance, your retirement, your ability to find work and the overall quality of your entire CAREER. That’s not something to risk by allowing emotional decisions to influence your career strategy.
The higher you get in “Life”, the higher the stakes. You are interviewing for a position that is better than where you are currently employed and SO ARE OTHER PEOPLE. Someone is going to “lose” the job if you get it. IF you get the job, you will have to leave your current one. FEELINGS WILL BE BRUISED. But bruises heal with time. Know that. If your boss/friend is really a friend, she will be happy for you that you’ve found something that will be more in alignment with your desires and professional development. If she is hurt or angry about you leaving, or if she views it as a betrayal, then SHE WAS NEVER YOUR FRIEND, she was just using an inappropriate employee retention strategy (consciously or unconsciously) so there’s no loss. Check your empathy at the door or, as we say in construction, “leave your feelings in the truck”.
A TOUCH of blind, self indulgent humility:
I hesitated a bit before putting this one in there because it sounds worse than it actually is. It’s the “nice guy/gal” syndrome. It’s the “politically correct” taken to illogical lengths. It’s where YOU get a secondary payoff by “suffering” as a result of a “noble” decision. You may sabotoge you career by tipping your hand too soon with your boss/friend, “but at least I had the integrity to be upfront and honest”. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT. Your job is not your husband. You don’t owe them a “heads up” that may turn around and bite you in the ass. YOUR career moves are YOURS. Make them with logic, maturity, honesty and respect. Not with guilt, shame, awkwardness and manipulation.
Your strategy spelled out: Take whatever personal days you need to prepare for your interviews - you have them, the days are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Do NOT tell your boss, or ANYONE you work with, or anyone in the same social circle as anyone you work with, that you are interviewing for another position. Go to as many interviews as it takes to show your potential employer how fucking awesome you are and how lucky they would be to have someone of your caliber on their team. When you are given the offer letter, let them know you need to give your current employer two weeks and a clean transition. They will expect this and understand. Type up your resignation letter and THEN tell your friend/boss, letter in hand, that you are leaving for greener pastures and that you are grateful for all the wonderful times you spent working here. Express appropriate interest in continuing your friendship. Place the letter on her desk and leave so she can process it. Show up to work the next day and be prepared to cooperate 110% with whatever procedure they need to find, hire and train your replacement. Make detailed transition notes on each of your cases. Give your clients reasonable closure if you feel it’s appropriate.
That will be $275.00 LOL[/quote]
Lots of good stuff in here, AC, but I think it suffers a bit from lack of knowledge regardng the nature of the “culture” of a MH center setting.[/quote]
I’m sure it’s like many offices, where the work/play/frienship boundaries get blurry. And that’s fine when you are just chuggin along and things are good. But when it’s time to leave or advance or otherwise “change”, you gotta look out for number one without stepping in number two. Many “work friendships” don’t survive one person or the other leaving the same place of employment. Which only goes to show you how much “weight” you should give such relationships and not compromise your career strategy for something ephemeral.[/quote]
Ok, first, most community mental health centers are populated primarily by women. And that includes the supervisory and admin positions. I know I don’t need to tell a chauvinist male pig like you that that can have implications for how things are done, and what is considered “appropriate.”
Second, the very nature of the work makes it emotion-laden. The clients’ emotions are a key part of the work done there, and any therapist worth his / his salt recognizes that they also develop complex feelings that need to be attended to, processed and expressed appropriately. Emotion IS the coin of the ream in a MH center.
Next, the workers there are routinely dealing with the ugly, the bizarre, the dangerous, the pathetic, the shocking, and the pitiable aspects of human behavior. In this way, there are similarities to police work, and even to the military. Except that when that actively psychotic paranoid schizophrenic or that enraged child abusing father comes into your office, you DON’T have any weapons to defend yourself should the need arise. Or when that adolescent kid hangs himself some Friday night, unlike a cop, you can’t shrug and forget about it because you’ve been meeting with him for months and genuinely CARE about him. In a word, it is stressful, emotional, mental-health-robbing work in the trenches. And just like cops and soldiers develop deep ties with their co-workers, MH workers do, and they depend on each other to understand and to support them. In some ways, they can become like family.
Finally, by definition, the people who work in this setting are caring, empathic, emotionally-centered people. And their interactions about anything and everything demonstrate this.
My point is that what was appropriate and what were healthy boundaries when I worked for a trading company where worlds away from what was “normal” when I did MH work.
Again, your post was full of good stuff, but my point here is that context is also an important consideration, and the context of MH work is, in some ways, unique.
[/quote]
I’m pickin up what you’re layin down. [/quote]
Can you sense the furrowing of my brow from where you both are sitting? I SAID all that. Why did no one pick up what I laid down? Because I’m FEMALE???!! (J/K)
Chushin, interestingly, the last agency I worked for was weirdly well staffed by males, both clinicians and case managers. Not a ton of difference that I’ve noticed in the tone of the place, but then the guys there tended to be more empathic and relational than most men. It was nice having them because the more dangerous teen boys could go to them. Over the past month I’ve worked with in some capacity three boys closing in on or exceeding 200 pounds, and all of whom have a history of violence.
On the other hand, an adult male might be at more risk with these boys than a relatively slight female with a finely tuned “nonthreatening” vibe.[/quote]
No offense to you and your brow, Em, but I was a lot more eloquent about it.
That does sound like an unusual agency. Generic community MH/ MR?[/quote]
Yup, your standard place. Right after I started there they hired a male case manager for the kids program and I remember someone saying how great it would be not to be all female. Then another came, and another. Then a clinician. Then one of the case managers finished grad school and moved into a therapist role. Children’s crisis was manned by a guy. Just raining men, hallelujah!
I would say that the components of the agency with which I had familiarity - adult and children’s crisis, CRT, substance abuse, and partial - were at least 30% male. Adult crisis more. There was one female in upper management, the rest were men.
The place was still a mess in all the usual ways.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
sexist, misogynist, or whatever, it still makes you a wanker Orion.[/quote]
but he’s our wanker[/quote]
Yes! I agree.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Em, I’m NOT trying to be an asshole when I write this, I swear. I would not take the time or make the effort if I did not genuinely care for you, so know that when you read this.
It’s a lack of mature boundary function coupled with an overblown sense of empathy compounded by a touch of blind, self indulgent humility. You have holes in your boundary. Period.
Boundary function:
Your career is YOURS. Navigating the waters toward better pay and better positions means that you have to play your cards close to your vest. Especially if you’ve allowed yourself to become “friends” with your boss. Such relationships are inappropriate. It’s perfectly fine to be “friendly”, “helpful”, “motivated”, “positive”, etc… with your boss. But FRIENDSHIP implies two individuals on EQUAL footing. The fact that she is your superior (therefore controlling critical aspects of your quality of life, time and livelihood) means that the “friendship” dynamic is Irrevocably skewed. Your “gut” knows this, which is why you are feeling such trepidation about talking to her about a possible change. But your “rational mind”, and your emotional landscape (protected by your porous boundary) is feeling guilt and shame. This will affect your relationship. You are acting as if you have the same standards for loyalty and fidelity with your job as you would with a marriage (or committed relationship). THIS IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.
Here’s what you owe your employer: Two weeks notice and a clean transition. THAT’S IT. You don’t owe them a heads up to start looking for your replacement before you get a position elsewhere. There are PLENTY of job applicants who would LOVE to apply for your position. You are replaceable, I promise.
Too much empathy:
You are walking on a slippery slope, my friend. In a relationship, the only consequence is a few bruised feelings and some emotional turmoil - something you are eminently qualified to deal with and process effectively. Your slippery boundaries with your JOB can affect your income, your insurance, your retirement, your ability to find work and the overall quality of your entire CAREER. That’s not something to risk by allowing emotional decisions to influence your career strategy.
The higher you get in “Life”, the higher the stakes. You are interviewing for a position that is better than where you are currently employed and SO ARE OTHER PEOPLE. Someone is going to “lose” the job if you get it. IF you get the job, you will have to leave your current one. FEELINGS WILL BE BRUISED. But bruises heal with time. Know that. If your boss/friend is really a friend, she will be happy for you that you’ve found something that will be more in alignment with your desires and professional development. If she is hurt or angry about you leaving, or if she views it as a betrayal, then SHE WAS NEVER YOUR FRIEND, she was just using an inappropriate employee retention strategy (consciously or unconsciously) so there’s no loss. Check your empathy at the door or, as we say in construction, “leave your feelings in the truck”.
A TOUCH of blind, self indulgent humility:
I hesitated a bit before putting this one in there because it sounds worse than it actually is. It’s the “nice guy/gal” syndrome. It’s the “politically correct” taken to illogical lengths. It’s where YOU get a secondary payoff by “suffering” as a result of a “noble” decision. You may sabotoge you career by tipping your hand too soon with your boss/friend, “but at least I had the integrity to be upfront and honest”. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT. Your job is not your husband. You don’t owe them a “heads up” that may turn around and bite you in the ass. YOUR career moves are YOURS. Make them with logic, maturity, honesty and respect. Not with guilt, shame, awkwardness and manipulation.
Your strategy spelled out: Take whatever personal days you need to prepare for your interviews - you have them, the days are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Do NOT tell your boss, or ANYONE you work with, or anyone in the same social circle as anyone you work with, that you are interviewing for another position. Go to as many interviews as it takes to show your potential employer how fucking awesome you are and how lucky they would be to have someone of your caliber on their team. When you are given the offer letter, let them know you need to give your current employer two weeks and a clean transition. They will expect this and understand. Type up your resignation letter and THEN tell your friend/boss, letter in hand, that you are leaving for greener pastures and that you are grateful for all the wonderful times you spent working here. Express appropriate interest in continuing your friendship. Place the letter on her desk and leave so she can process it. Show up to work the next day and be prepared to cooperate 110% with whatever procedure they need to find, hire and train your replacement. Make detailed transition notes on each of your cases. Give your clients reasonable closure if you feel it’s appropriate.
That will be $275.00 LOL[/quote]
Lots of good stuff in here, AC, but I think it suffers a bit from lack of knowledge regardng the nature of the “culture” of a MH center setting.[/quote]
I’m sure it’s like many offices, where the work/play/frienship boundaries get blurry. And that’s fine when you are just chuggin along and things are good. But when it’s time to leave or advance or otherwise “change”, you gotta look out for number one without stepping in number two. Many “work friendships” don’t survive one person or the other leaving the same place of employment. Which only goes to show you how much “weight” you should give such relationships and not compromise your career strategy for something ephemeral.[/quote]
Ok, first, most community mental health centers are populated primarily by women. And that includes the supervisory and admin positions. I know I don’t need to tell a chauvinist male pig like you that that can have implications for how things are done, and what is considered “appropriate.”
Second, the very nature of the work makes it emotion-laden. The clients’ emotions are a key part of the work done there, and any therapist worth his / his salt recognizes that they also develop complex feelings that need to be attended to, processed and expressed appropriately. Emotion IS the coin of the ream in a MH center.
Next, the workers there are routinely dealing with the ugly, the bizarre, the dangerous, the pathetic, the shocking, and the pitiable aspects of human behavior. In this way, there are similarities to police work, and even to the military. Except that when that actively psychotic paranoid schizophrenic or that enraged child abusing father comes into your office, you DON’T have any weapons to defend yourself should the need arise. Or when that adolescent kid hangs himself some Friday night, unlike a cop, you can’t shrug and forget about it because you’ve been meeting with him for months and genuinely CARE about him. In a word, it is stressful, emotional, mental-health-robbing work in the trenches. And just like cops and soldiers develop deep ties with their co-workers, MH workers do, and they depend on each other to understand and to support them. In some ways, they can become like family.
Finally, by definition, the people who work in this setting are caring, empathic, emotionally-centered people. And their interactions about anything and everything demonstrate this.
My point is that what was appropriate and what were healthy boundaries when I worked for a trading company where worlds away from what was “normal” when I did MH work.
Again, your post was full of good stuff, but my point here is that context is also an important consideration, and the context of MH work is, in some ways, unique.
[/quote]
I’m pickin up what you’re layin down. [/quote]
Can you sense the furrowing of my brow from where you both are sitting? I SAID all that. Why did no one pick up what I laid down? Because I’m FEMALE???!! (J/K)
Chushin, interestingly, the last agency I worked for was weirdly well staffed by males, both clinicians and case managers. Not a ton of difference that I’ve noticed in the tone of the place, but then the guys there tended to be more empathic and relational than most men. It was nice having them because the more dangerous teen boys could go to them. Over the past month I’ve worked with in some capacity three boys closing in on or exceeding 200 pounds, and all of whom have a history of violence.
On the other hand, an adult male might be at more risk with these boys than a relatively slight female with a finely tuned “nonthreatening” vibe.[/quote]
Emily, I worked as a clinician in an adolescent treatment unit in a residential program (boys ages 15-18). I can tell you first hand, these kids / teens had a WAYYYYY bigger problem with male staff. Never once did I ever feel threatened or in any kind of danger while working there.
The problem was, rather than talking these guys down, the workers were essentially provoking them resulting in multiple restraints a day. A kid’s refusing to transition so you feel the need to use physical management, really? I complained to management which resulted in me having to give staff a presentation on de-escalation practices. Needless to say, I don’t think anyone was paying attention because there was something like 8 restraints that day. sigh
When I was working in a clinic, I had a male client that had a dissociative disorder as well as intermittent explosive disorder. He had a very threatening presence and the guy was huge. I was quite honestly, very afraid of this guy and I’d put all of the other clinicians and staff on alert when he came in.
I have never been more uncomfortable with I client, ever. No matter what I did, I could NOT get rid of this man as a client. When I left the clinic I wrote on his d/c summary that he needed to see a male clinician.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:
I’ve always had significant interest in Japan, I just love the culture! Oh, and I LOVE Japanese cuisine. I can make pretty awesome okonomiyaki, if I do say so myself! I had a very good friend from Japan and I suppose that had some influence in inspiring me to become more acquainted with speaking the language. Do you live in Japan? [/quote]
I used to. I was there for almost 15 years in all. I may go back in a year or so, depending on how things go. I don’t have to explain the appeal of the culture and the cuisine to you, but (not even knowing you) I will predict that if you ever went to Japan you would love it and never want to leave. I should have never left.
Oh, by the way, if you ever make it to Chushin’s home town (Chushin likes to keep his location seeeeekrit, so I can’t tell you where that is), but they make the BEST okonomiyaki there. I’ve had all types, but that’s the best, hands down. [/quote]
Sadly, I have no plans of venturing there any time soon but when I do, perhaps I will be able to coax it out of him. I can’t imagine traveling almost 7000 miles and not being able to have the very BEST okonomiyaki!
[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:
I’ve always had significant interest in Japan, I just love the culture! Oh, and I LOVE Japanese cuisine. I can make pretty awesome okonomiyaki, if I do say so myself! I had a very good friend from Japan and I suppose that had some influence in inspiring me to become more acquainted with speaking the language. Do you live in Japan? [/quote]
I used to. I was there for almost 15 years in all. I may go back in a year or so, depending on how things go. I don’t have to explain the appeal of the culture and the cuisine to you, but (not even knowing you) I will predict that if you ever went to Japan you would love it and never want to leave. I should have never left.
Oh, by the way, if you ever make it to Chushin’s home town (Chushin likes to keep his location seeeeekrit, so I can’t tell you where that is), but they make the BEST okonomiyaki there. I’ve had all types, but that’s the best, hands down. [/quote]
Sadly, I have no plans of venturing there any time soon but when I do, perhaps I will be able to coax it out of him. I can’t imagine traveling almost 7000 miles and not being able to have the very BEST okonomiyaki![/quote]
Well, in the meantime,
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Der_Steppenwolfe wrote:
sexist, misogynist, or whatever, it still makes you a wanker Orion.[/quote]
but he’s our wanker[/quote]
Yes! I agree.[/quote]
I have new respect for the wanker.