Men afraid of commitment?

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
How do otherwise honest people handle these standard deceptions? That’s what I need to figure out. I have therapy tonight, so that’s good.[/quote]
Just don’t bother with any of that and tell everything how it is. Run toward the awkward, and it isn’t nearly as bad.[/quote]
I have had a few of my employees leave and it was very awkward for them.

After they came in to put in their notice, I informed them that this is their life and I did not take it personally. I wish them luck and just tell them that in the future be more open and straight forward, when you run a business you need to know about staffing as soon as possible. [/quote]

I do understand that, and it’s important to me as well, as my caseload is a heavy one in terms of acuity and I care very much about both my team and the people we serve. Hence my desire to tell, along with a general discomfort in feeling secretive. My interview tomorrow will give information about how long a process I can expect and what kind of competition there is for the job. If it looks like this is something that could come to fruition in the next month I’ll disclose (will undoubtedly have a second interview with medical staff, possibly more - could be a couple of months before I know anything). But not today. Again, for her sake as well as mine. She doesn’t need to be worrying and the team strained only to find in a month that - just kidding! - I’m staying.

Do you want to know every time someone puts in for a better job, whether it’s a long shot or not? And would you not start viewing that person as dispensable?

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
^ So you are afraid of emotional confrontations?

Where you might be seen in a light you dont want to be seen in?

So you would rather use misleading or false information to keep you conscious clean? [/quote]

I am afraid of disadvantaging myself professionally. If I am not offered this new job, I will remain where I am, without further job hunting, and pursue advancement within the agency, which had been my plan. Professional and personal are different and the lines blur for me.

And no, how does deception cleanse my conscience? I feel like my problem is the opposite, that I have difficulty merely playing my cards close to my chest when appropriate, as in dating and work advancement. Which I guess are the only two areas where complete transparency can be a disadvantage.
[/quote]
As an employer I guess I see things a little different. I do not believe someone that comes to me expressing that they have been recruited for another job as a failure on either party. Its just some thing to explore and open dialogue is important to find out what/where/why we are at this spot. But unlike you, I can very easily delineate professional and personal, that maybe a guy thing or a psychotic thing.

Some people will delude themselves in a sense by “altering” the situations where they come out clean and can lay blame on others. As in your scenario someone could turn the blame on the boss for not being there that day. “I tried to go in and tell you, but you took it off so you missed that chance for me to tell you” type of thing.

Hell its the internet Q, you can only analyze so much.

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Oh, I meant to post earlier - I have an interview tomorrow afternoon. Former coworkers and friends referred me for an opening in their practice and it’s too good a job not to pursue.

Yesterday, my supervisor, who is wonderful, offered that I could skip tomorrow’s weekly meeting to work on paperwork because I’m so behind, which is because I’ve had two clients hospitalized over the last week or so for mental health stuff, which is time consuming as well as emotionally draining. So now my entire team is being extra nice to me.

Anyway, I’d sort of been toying with the idea of calling in sick because I have to get dressed for the interview and obviously can’t do it at work. So, the supervisor is being all supportive and all, while meanwhile I’m sort of playing the field, and I wound up doing the same exact thing I do with men. First I hedged when she suggested I take time Wednesday, saying without making eye contact that I was thinking of taking a personal day.

I left her office awkwardly (we’re friends). Then I went away and thought about it last night and this morning and decided that I need to tell her about the interview and that I didn’t seek it out (I wasn’t job hunting, honest!) even though I KNOW you don’t mention interviews to bosses.

So what I have realized is that the men don’t have anything to do with it. It’s me! I can’t handle ANY of it. I was all set to march in and confess this morning, and had gotten all bucked up for it, but she wasn’t here and then a coworker did an intervention on me (which mostly consisted in deciding together that the supervisor will be stressed by the thought of me leaving and it should wait for her sake, because we both like her).

How do otherwise honest people handle these standard deceptions? That’s what I need to figure out. I have therapy tonight, so that’s good.[/quote]

Emily, what kind of work do you do? Good luck on your job interview! [/quote]

I’m a clinical social worker - therapist - currently in community mental health and working primarily with children and families. Interviewing to be a clinician in a family medical setting, so less dire and tragic, hopefully. And with more pay .

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
How do otherwise honest people handle these standard deceptions? That’s what I need to figure out. I have therapy tonight, so that’s good.[/quote]
Just don’t bother with any of that and tell everything how it is. Run toward the awkward, and it isn’t nearly as bad.[/quote]
I have had a few of my employees leave and it was very awkward for them.

After they came in to put in their notice, I informed them that this is their life and I did not take it personally. I wish them luck and just tell them that in the future be more open and straight forward, when you run a business you need to know about staffing as soon as possible. [/quote]

Do you want to know every time someone puts in for a better job, whether it’s a long shot or not? And would you not start viewing that person as dispensable?[/quote]
No I would not view them that way. I sit down to discuss the situation, some people need to see the global scheme.

Example:

I hire EMT-basics and Paramedics. I have lost one to the Houston Fire dept, he was young, unmarried and wanted the guts and glory. My guys do industrial medicine, mostly sitting in a refinery taking care of minor injuries.

I pay more

FF get laid more

How do I compete with that? I did not take it personal and really liked this kid, he text me all the time still.
I have another kid now who works for me and he is starting to lean that way himself.
Do I have long term plans for him? No
Would I if he wanted it? Yes, he is a good employee

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Oh, I meant to post earlier - I have an interview tomorrow afternoon. Former coworkers and friends referred me for an opening in their practice and it’s too good a job not to pursue.

Yesterday, my supervisor, who is wonderful, offered that I could skip tomorrow’s weekly meeting to work on paperwork because I’m so behind, which is because I’ve had two clients hospitalized over the last week or so for mental health stuff, which is time consuming as well as emotionally draining. So now my entire team is being extra nice to me.

Anyway, I’d sort of been toying with the idea of calling in sick because I have to get dressed for the interview and obviously can’t do it at work. So, the supervisor is being all supportive and all, while meanwhile I’m sort of playing the field, and I wound up doing the same exact thing I do with men. First I hedged when she suggested I take time Wednesday, saying without making eye contact that I was thinking of taking a personal day.

I left her office awkwardly (we’re friends). Then I went away and thought about it last night and this morning and decided that I need to tell her about the interview and that I didn’t seek it out (I wasn’t job hunting, honest!) even though I KNOW you don’t mention interviews to bosses.

So what I have realized is that the men don’t have anything to do with it. It’s me! I can’t handle ANY of it. I was all set to march in and confess this morning, and had gotten all bucked up for it, but she wasn’t here and then a coworker did an intervention on me (which mostly consisted in deciding together that the supervisor will be stressed by the thought of me leaving and it should wait for her sake, because we both like her).

How do otherwise honest people handle these standard deceptions? That’s what I need to figure out. I have therapy tonight, so that’s good.[/quote]

Emily, what kind of work do you do? Good luck on your job interview! [/quote]

I’m a clinical social worker - therapist - currently in community mental health and working primarily with children and families. Interviewing to be a clinician in a family medical setting, so less dire and tragic, hopefully. And with more pay .[/quote]

I’m an LMFT! I’m in private practice now and I can’t tell you how much better it is on this side!!! I could never, ever, ever go back to a clinic. Huge, high risk caseload and little pay… No thank you, I’m done with that! I hope the new potential job works out for you. :slight_smile:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
^ So you are afraid of emotional confrontations?

Where you might be seen in a light you dont want to be seen in?

So you would rather use misleading or false information to keep you conscious clean? [/quote]

I am afraid of disadvantaging myself professionally. If I am not offered this new job, I will remain where I am, without further job hunting, and pursue advancement within the agency, which had been my plan. Professional and personal are different and the lines blur for me.

And no, how does deception cleanse my conscience? I feel like my problem is the opposite, that I have difficulty merely playing my cards close to my chest when appropriate, as in dating and work advancement. Which I guess are the only two areas where complete transparency can be a disadvantage.
[/quote]
As an employer I guess I see things a little different. I do not believe someone that comes to me expressing that they have been recruited for another job as a failure on either party. Its just some thing to explore and open dialogue is important to find out what/where/why we are at this spot. But unlike you, I can very easily delineate professional and personal, that maybe a guy thing or a psychotic thing.

Some people will delude themselves in a sense by “altering” the situations where they come out clean and can lay blame on others. As in your scenario someone could turn the blame on the boss for not being there that day. “I tried to go in and tell you, but you took it off so you missed that chance for me to tell you” type of thing.

Hell its the internet Q, you can only analyze so much. [/quote]

No, there’s no blame to be placed. Only better and worse ways to handle the decision about when to disclose. She’s my friend, so it matters to me.

My analysis is not so much to do with the job situation as about what seems to be an inability to be cool and STFU when appropriate.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
^ So you are afraid of emotional confrontations?

Where you might be seen in a light you dont want to be seen in?

So you would rather use misleading or false information to keep you conscious clean? [/quote]

I am afraid of disadvantaging myself professionally. If I am not offered this new job, I will remain where I am, without further job hunting, and pursue advancement within the agency, which had been my plan. Professional and personal are different and the lines blur for me.

And no, how does deception cleanse my conscience? I feel like my problem is the opposite, that I have difficulty merely playing my cards close to my chest when appropriate, as in dating and work advancement. Which I guess are the only two areas where complete transparency can be a disadvantage.
[/quote]
As an employer I guess I see things a little different. I do not believe someone that comes to me expressing that they have been recruited for another job as a failure on either party. Its just some thing to explore and open dialogue is important to find out what/where/why we are at this spot. But unlike you, I can very easily delineate professional and personal, that maybe a guy thing or a psychotic thing.

Some people will delude themselves in a sense by “altering” the situations where they come out clean and can lay blame on others. As in your scenario someone could turn the blame on the boss for not being there that day. “I tried to go in and tell you, but you took it off so you missed that chance for me to tell you” type of thing.

Hell its the internet Q, you can only analyze so much. [/quote]

My analysis is not so much to do with the job situation as about what seems to be an inability to be cool and STFU when appropriate.[/quote]

Could be experience level in dealing with that.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Really? Under what circumstances? Is this a myth, meant to confuse women further? As if your regular incomprehensible behavior isn’t enough!

Because once again I find myself doing a deer-in-the-headlights thing as someone begins pushing in that direction, i.e. exclusivity. And we’ve been seeing each other only briefly, no sex.

So my question for the board is, how is this best handled?

I don’t understand men. Except orion.
[/quote]
Dump him.

would this be an awkward time to ask miss Emily for a nekkid pic?

seems ya’all’re freinds now

‘scantily clad’ is the term, I think. And this is T-Nation. We’re all scantily clad. Even I am only wearing my old rugby jersey and a pair of boxers.

Em, I’m NOT trying to be an asshole when I write this, I swear. I would not take the time or make the effort if I did not genuinely care for you, so know that when you read this.

It’s a lack of mature boundary function coupled with an overblown sense of empathy compounded by a touch of blind, self indulgent humility. You have holes in your boundary. Period.

Boundary function:
Your career is YOURS. Navigating the waters toward better pay and better positions means that you have to play your cards close to your vest. Especially if you’ve allowed yourself to become “friends” with your boss. Such relationships are inappropriate. It’s perfectly fine to be “friendly”, “helpful”, “motivated”, “positive”, etc… with your boss. But FRIENDSHIP implies two individuals on EQUAL footing. The fact that she is your superior (therefore controlling critical aspects of your quality of life, time and livelihood) means that the “friendship” dynamic is Irrevocably skewed. Your “gut” knows this, which is why you are feeling such trepidation about talking to her about a possible change. But your “rational mind”, and your emotional landscape (protected by your porous boundary) is feeling guilt and shame. This will affect your relationship. You are acting as if you have the same standards for loyalty and fidelity with your job as you would with a marriage (or committed relationship). THIS IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.

Here’s what you owe your employer: Two weeks notice and a clean transition. THAT’S IT. You don’t owe them a heads up to start looking for your replacement before you get a position elsewhere. There are PLENTY of job applicants who would LOVE to apply for your position. You are replaceable, I promise.

Too much empathy:
You are walking on a slippery slope, my friend. In a relationship, the only consequence is a few bruised feelings and some emotional turmoil - something you are eminently qualified to deal with and process effectively. Your slippery boundaries with your JOB can affect your income, your insurance, your retirement, your ability to find work and the overall quality of your entire CAREER. That’s not something to risk by allowing emotional decisions to influence your career strategy.

The higher you get in “Life”, the higher the stakes. You are interviewing for a position that is better than where you are currently employed and SO ARE OTHER PEOPLE. Someone is going to “lose” the job if you get it. IF you get the job, you will have to leave your current one. FEELINGS WILL BE BRUISED. But bruises heal with time. Know that. If your boss/friend is really a friend, she will be happy for you that you’ve found something that will be more in alignment with your desires and professional development. If she is hurt or angry about you leaving, or if she views it as a betrayal, then SHE WAS NEVER YOUR FRIEND, she was just using an inappropriate employee retention strategy (consciously or unconsciously) so there’s no loss. Check your empathy at the door or, as we say in construction, “leave your feelings in the truck”.

A TOUCH of blind, self indulgent humility:
I hesitated a bit before putting this one in there because it sounds worse than it actually is. It’s the “nice guy/gal” syndrome. It’s the “politically correct” taken to illogical lengths. It’s where YOU get a secondary payoff by “suffering” as a result of a “noble” decision. You may sabotoge you career by tipping your hand too soon with your boss/friend, “but at least I had the integrity to be upfront and honest”. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT. Your job is not your husband. You don’t owe them a “heads up” that may turn around and bite you in the ass. YOUR career moves are YOURS. Make them with logic, maturity, honesty and respect. Not with guilt, shame, awkwardness and manipulation.

Your strategy spelled out: Take whatever personal days you need to prepare for your interviews - you have them, the days are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Do NOT tell your boss, or ANYONE you work with, or anyone in the same social circle as anyone you work with, that you are interviewing for another position. Go to as many interviews as it takes to show your potential employer how fucking awesome you are and how lucky they would be to have someone of your caliber on their team. When you are given the offer letter, let them know you need to give your current employer two weeks and a clean transition. They will expect this and understand. Type up your resignation letter and THEN tell your friend/boss, letter in hand, that you are leaving for greener pastures and that you are grateful for all the wonderful times you spent working here. Express appropriate interest in continuing your friendship. Place the letter on her desk and leave so she can process it. Show up to work the next day and be prepared to cooperate 110% with whatever procedure they need to find, hire and train your replacement. Make detailed transition notes on each of your cases. Give your clients reasonable closure if you feel it’s appropriate.

That will be $275.00 LOL

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]WhiteSturgeon wrote:

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]The Other Titan wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Okay cant read all of this thread.

Can someone give me some cliff notes?

Q do ever think maybe you think about all this stuff to much? Meaning you OVER think/analyse all this.

Just a thought, dont yell at me :slight_smile: [/quote]

I’m going to give what you’ve said a great deal of thought, Derek, and will respond at length after I’ve had time to really turn it over and view it from all angles. :slight_smile:

[/quote]
hahahaahahahhahahaa awesome.

I dont believe you go through relationships with your head in the clouds and the lust in your loins, but you also should not go through it like a you are a psychologist analysing every little thing. Just my .02, sometimes what makes a relationship great is a little of both of these. [/quote]

Actually, I think I do exactly that (head in clouds, loins in lust) which seems to be the concensus on this thread, if I’m not misreading AC and Chushin, etc.

I have more to say, naturally, but I need to say some stuff to my agency’s documentation system before I get fired.[/quote]

My loins are always in lust[/quote]

I can buy my own drinks, so don’t think I’m going to kiss you. And I don’t see anyone more than once a week. And this is the last post I’m writing to you until - Thursday![/quote]

Emily, if you ever laid eyes on me you’d be asking to buy my drinks and praying I’d plant a passionate one on ya. I’m sorry but Thursday is not good for me I already have plans with Sturgeon that day.

Yours very truly,

Lusty Loins
[/quote]

Right… If badgering me on the forums constitutes “having plans”. [/quote]

Just do what I do. Insult him in Japanese and Swahili.
[/quote]

You know how to speak Swahili? LOL

Nihongo ga sukoshi hanasemasu. It has been 7 years since I last practiced Japanese. In my case, since I haven’t used it, I really did lose it! Now that I’m thinking about it, it’s making me a little sad - all of that time and effort and I would say at least 80% of it is completely gone. :frowning: [/quote]
Apoptosis.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Nah, he’ll get over it. It’s an immature expectation, nothing eternal about it. He will evolve past it when he finds someone who captures his attention and his heart. If anything, it’s inspiring because he’ll hold out a little longer and not settle for just anyone.

Perfect example just happened to a very close friend of mine. He was a bigger man whore than I was, if anyone can believe that! And last month he told me that he found “the one”. After years of wading through the dating cess-pool, he is in “LUUUUUV”. I met her and she’s a great chick - everything he was looking for. He found the white buffalo! That’s a GOOD thing! [/quote]

Is it just me, or have you returned from your hiatus down South more open to positive, fulfilling relationships with women?[/quote]
Uh did you miss the memo?

Check G+ I will not say what changed.[/quote]

No, no - He and I talked about THAT even before the “memo.” LOL.

That is actually partly why I posed the question, ya know?[/quote]

You guys are like a couple of fuckin schoolgirls! LOL

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Nah, he’ll get over it. It’s an immature expectation, nothing eternal about it. He will evolve past it when he finds someone who captures his attention and his heart. If anything, it’s inspiring because he’ll hold out a little longer and not settle for just anyone.

Perfect example just happened to a very close friend of mine. He was a bigger man whore than I was, if anyone can believe that! And last month he told me that he found “the one”. After years of wading through the dating cess-pool, he is in “LUUUUUV”. I met her and she’s a great chick - everything he was looking for. He found the white buffalo! That’s a GOOD thing! [/quote]

Is it just me, or have you returned from your hiatus down South more open to positive, fulfilling relationships with women?[/quote]
Uh did you miss the memo?

Check G+ I will not say what changed.[/quote]

No, no - He and I talked about THAT even before the “memo.” LOL.

That is actually partly why I posed the question, ya know?[/quote]

You guys are like a couple of fuckin schoolgirls! LOL

[/quote]

Are you saying that’s why you love us so? :-)[/quote]

Not even if you put on a plaid skirt! LOL