Melding Evolution and Creationism

First- let me say that I second all of Prof X posts. It is like he is typing what I am thinking…

Second- Just because a fossil exhibits similar characteristics to a still living species does not mean that it was an evolutionary step to the still living species. I dont get where that huge jump is made. Organisms with similar characteristics are grouped into the taxonomical catagories of kingdom, phylum, class, family, genus, species. Why is it that if something is found fossilized it is determined to be an intermediate evolutionary link, but if it is found living it is grouped into the taxonomical catagories? Where is the evidence that it is some kind of step and not just another variation of a given phylum or species or genus?

I would like to add several pieces of science; Derived from Quantom theory, astronomy, physics, etc. These are new findings. That way we are all on the same page and up to date. I don’t intend to discuss anymore, just going to give you guys a little bit more information. (if it has not already been stated)

Briefly:

We RECENTLY found that the Universe is FLAT and Infinite with of course No center. (looking and the lumps of galaxies etc. Also one model from Albert Eistein regarding the three possibilites of the universe. Flat, open, closed.) He predicted a Flat Universe prior to this.

You may have heard about dark matter, but we now know there is Dark Energy as well.

Also RECENTLY, the inflation of the Universe has picked up SPEED.( This dealing with Dark energy surpassing Dark matter etc. )

This was discovered noticing that stars, galaxies were MOVING farther away from us. Eventually this could results in our galaxy being alone and then eventually our galaxy moving as well. Yikes!

In addition, the Big Bang is more than a “theory.” Some may dismiss the Bang bang saying it’s only a theory… However, I just wanted to let everyone know the evidence is undeniable. In other words, accept it.

Scientists have been reaching into thousands/millions of a split second of the occurence or “beginning” of the Big bang. They know what was going on in a split second. We don’t have physics for what was going on during the unimaginable time frames.

Also, it has been postulated that the Big bang, was not necessarily the first and only occurence… That one ought to scramble your brain if the other stuff did not. In other words, the big bang we know of may not have been the first. LOL

Oh yeah, our 4 dimensions that we are aware of may be in the nucleus (with gravity slipping out occasionally) of an 11 dimensions additionally.

Fun fact: Gravity is the CURVATURE of space time.

“Stringing” is a very interesting topic but I will pass on that one.

AND, if you made it this far without your brains being completely scrambled and giving up try read this.

These new discoveries were taught by a professor who helped design the “Hubble Space telescope”

telescopes are cheap by the way to comparison to how much we spend on wars, and dog food.

-Get Lifted

P.S There is a new telescope almost ready and able to launch! How exciting with ITTT will find

DA MAN: I thought you and Prof X were the same guy. Both smart, rational dudes either way.

[quote]Get Lifted wrote:
I would like to add several pieces of science; Derived from Quantom theory, astronomy, physics, etc. These are new findings. That way we are all on the same page and up to date. I don’t intend to discuss anymore, just going to give you guys a little bit more information. (if it has not already been stated)

Briefly:

We RECENTLY found that the Universe is FLAT and Infinite with of course No center. [/quote] Well, of course, not really infinite since it’s size must be bounded by a beginning in space-time (the big bang) and therefore has a limit but not necessarily an “edge” [quote](looking and the lumps of galaxies etc. Also one model from Albert Eistein regarding the three possibilites of the universe. Flat, open, closed.) He predicted a Flat Universe prior to this.
. . .

In addition, the Big Bang is more than a “theory.” Some may dismiss the Bang bang saying it’s only a theory… However, I just wanted to let everyone know the evidence is undeniable. In other words, accept it.
[/quote]
Still a theory, although I accept it since the evidence is clear, consistent, and nearly undeniable… [quote]

. . .

telescopes are cheap by the way to comparison to how much we spend on wars, and dog food. [/quote]

Especially that dude with the “softer side” He probably buys his dog all sorts of gifts.

but seriously, I’d just like to add that the Big Bang implies a beginning, which implies a beginner.

Hi all, this is my first post on t-nation, usually i’d just sit and read the A1-grade articles, but this creation vs evolution argument is making me spin!
As a preface, I?ve a background in geology, and went to a christian school.
In my view any answer to an inquisitive kid that goes along the lines of ?..well I don?t know, but God moves in mysterious ways.? is blatantly not good enough.
On a personal note, whilst we do not have the concrete evidence that conclusively proves the bigbang model is correct, we have no proof at all that a supernatural entity exists. Through a bit of research, I?m convinced that the idea of a single entity that is the beginning and the end and is the giver of all life, etc, came, quite simply from a drug-addled mind several thousand yrs ago.
Lets take the idea of ?manna from heaven? ? the facts given to us through the bible:
? Heavenly in hue (ie I take that to be blueish)
? Breeds worms and maggots if left unconsumed, or out in the sun
? It can be preserved by immolation in honey
? It has a bread-like consistancy
? The israelites were herders of sheep and goats.

In my mind this all adds up to psilocybe mushrooms. The ones that you trip on, and let you speak to your own internal gods.
The spores are unharmed when the fruiting body is consumed by ruminants. Thus the animals transported the spores as the people travelled. Leave any mushroom unpicked, and the bugs get them. The psilocybe bruises blue when picked, and it?s halucinogenic properties are uncompromised when stored in honey. Being a mushroom, when fresh it has a crisp texture ? breadlike ? additionally it can be dried and ground to a powder ? and used as a substitute for cereal meal.

Make up your own minds.

On a second note ? the israel / palestine region has several varieties of shrub which exude volotile oils. These oils are used by the plant to inititate a fire ? the fire will crack the hard seed cases allowing the plant to seed.
These plants also grow well on stony hillsides. Interetingly enough these same stony hillsides have a lot of flint in their makeup.
Heres a scenario: bloke in a desert is semi dehydrated while tripping on mushies, climbs a hill looking for some wayward animals. Said animals are above him on the hill, as he climbs toward then, the animals move, knock some rock loose and it falls toward some bushes, while striking other rocks. Sparks happen. Bush catches alight.
Bloke stumbles back to camp, the story is spread and a miracle is born.
After all, is not the bible a collection of stories written by people about other people?s experiences?

In answer to T-Doff ?yes infinite implies no beginning and no end. Our current knowledge of space-time breaks down in the very early stages on the bigbang. Imagine the universe to be a sinewave ? the universe ?bigbangs? at a trough ? expands up to a peak, ?entropy happens?, and then ?condenses? to the next trough (according to one model of the universe) Now extend that sinewave out ? peak/trough/peak/trough, pull it around and make it a closed loop.
Now tell me where we are in terms of beginning and end.

Recently I saw a doco based on a book called ?This Elegant Universe? describing the current exitement regarding string theory. The science was a bit far above my head, but what I gleaned is that string theory just may be the missing link to bring together the General Theory of Relativity and Quantum Theory (GTR works really well at the macro level, and QT works really well at the subatomic level, but they don?t correspond ? what you predict with masses such as black holes and neutron stars acording to GTR will not work at the quantum level, and vice versa).
If string theory can bring together GTR and QT, then we will have the holy grail of a General Theory of Everything.

The below links are pertinant to other parts of this discussion (i hope they come thru allright- very interesting reading).

Regards
Shaun

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm

http://www.lightnet.co.uk/informer/scitech/20000125.htm

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/09.12/CreatingLifeina.html

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article13.html

http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/diatribes010/diatribes189-209/diatribes198.htm

If the idea is so undeniable then all cosmologist would agree on the details right?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v16/i3/cosmologists.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0601skepticism.asp

and just for those who say the Earth is old

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/old_earth.asp

There are way too many unexplained things to flat out say the idea is proven. Possible, but still not proven.

Presupposition of any evidence is what makes this such an on going thing. I have no doubt that any time new evidence comes out people are jumping on it to stretch it into their own point of view.

We still have issues with our own Galaxy and the kupier belt.

[quote]ShaunW wrote:

Lets take the idea of ?manna from heaven? ? the facts given to us through the bible:
? Heavenly in hue (ie I take that to be blueish)
? Breeds worms and maggots if left unconsumed, or out in the sun
? It can be preserved by immolation in honey
? It has a bread-like consistancy
? The israelites were herders of sheep and goats.

In my mind this all adds up to psilocybe mushrooms. The ones that you trip on, and let you speak to your own internal gods.
The spores are unharmed when the fruiting body is consumed by ruminants. Thus the animals transported the spores as the people travelled. Leave any mushroom unpicked, and the bugs get them. The psilocybe bruises blue when picked, and it?s halucinogenic properties are uncompromised when stored in honey. Being a mushroom, when fresh it has a crisp texture ? breadlike ? additionally it can be dried and ground to a powder ? and used as a substitute for cereal meal.

Make up your own minds.

On a second note ? the israel / palestine region has several varieties of shrub which exude volotile oils. These oils are used by the plant to inititate a fire ? the fire will crack the hard seed cases allowing the plant to seed.
These plants also grow well on stony hillsides. Interetingly enough these same stony hillsides have a lot of flint in their makeup.
Heres a scenario: bloke in a desert is semi dehydrated while tripping on mushies, climbs a hill looking for some wayward animals. Said animals are above him on the hill, as he climbs toward then, the animals move, knock some rock loose and it falls toward some bushes, while striking other rocks. Sparks happen. Bush catches alight.
Bloke stumbles back to camp, the story is spread and a miracle is born.
After all, is not the bible a collection of stories written by people about other people?s experiences?

In answer to T-Doff ?yes infinite implies no beginning and no end. Our current knowledge of space-time breaks down in the very early stages on the bigbang. Imagine the universe to be a sinewave ? the universe ?bigbangs? at a trough ? expands up to a peak, ?entropy happens?, and then ?condenses? to the next trough (according to one model of the universe) Now extend that sinewave out ? peak/trough/peak/trough, pull it around and make it a closed loop.
Now tell me where we are in terms of beginning and end.

Recently I saw a doco based on a book called ?This Elegant Universe? describing the current exitement regarding string theory. The science was a bit far above my head, but what I gleaned is that string theory just may be the missing link to bring together the General Theory of Relativity and Quantum Theory (GTR works really well at the macro level, and QT works really well at the subatomic level, but they don?t correspond ? what you predict with masses such as black holes and neutron stars acording to GTR will not work at the quantum level, and vice versa).
If string theory can bring together GTR and QT, then we will have the holy grail of a General Theory of Everything.

The below links are pertinant to other parts of this discussion (i hope they come thru allright- very interesting reading).

Regards
Shaun

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm

http://www.lightnet.co.uk/informer/scitech/20000125.htm

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/09.12/CreatingLifeina.html

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article13.html

http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/diatribes010/diatribes189-209/diatribes198.htm
[/quote]

No offense, but your thoughts are slightly disjointed. You are comparing food that Moses (and company) recorded fell from the sky was a mushroom and that this is why…what exactly? The pillar of fire was before this event. The parting of the red sea was before this event. Please explain to me how you ignored those recorded “miracles” and came to the conclusion that being lost in the desert was a result of recreational drugs. Aside from that, I will plow through the rest of what you wrote when I have more time.

Hi, don’t have much time on the net at work, just chucked down some thoughts.
i was not introducing any time line, merely pointing out some interesting concepts which can be used to explain (prove, if you will) various miraculous occurences. Above several posters are intent on proving evolution and physics theory as incorrect based on certain facts - well it can go both ways.

“Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4). And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16: 14). And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.”

above is a quick religious grab - It says this substance rained down from heaven, so why was this just upon the ground? (the face of the wilderness), not on the tent surfaces, bed rolls, in upturned pots, etc? - go outside and watch it hail - any reasonably flat or concave surface will be populated with the hail, not just the ground, thus ‘proving’ that this susbstance could not fall from the sky. Indeed, as stated, this was a substance for all - whether or not you were jewish. Meaning it seems to me this stuff would appear whether the jews were there or not.

Additionally the people are told to gather a “certain rate every day” - to me this means that it is a substance which in itself is natural and needs to reproduce. After all if the people gathered and ate it all, what would be left for the sheep and goats to eat, to carry the spores?

I’ve enjoyed this discussion, reminds me of arguing with the reverend back in school.

[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Hi, don’t have much time on the net at work, just chucked down some thoughts.
i was not introducing any time line, merely pointing out some interesting concepts which can be used to explain (prove, if you will) various miraculous occurences. Above several posters are intent on proving evolution and physics theory as incorrect based on certain facts - well it can go both ways.

“Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4). And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16: 14). And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.”

above is a quick religious grab - It says this substance rained down from heaven, so why was this just upon the ground? (the face of the wilderness), not on the tent surfaces, bed rolls, in upturned pots, etc? - go outside and watch it hail - any reasonably flat or concave surface will be populated with the hail, not just the ground, thus ‘proving’ that this susbstance could not fall from the sky. Indeed, as stated, this was a substance for all - whether or not you were jewish. Meaning it seems to me this stuff would appear whether the jews were there or not.

Additionally the people are told to gather a “certain rate every day” - to me this means that it is a substance which in itself is natural and needs to reproduce. After all if the people gathered and ate it all, what would be left for the sheep and goats to eat, to carry the spores?

I’ve enjoyed this discussion, reminds me of arguing with the reverend back in school.[/quote]

You don’t understaand why they picked it off the ground? The bible had to say that it fell everywhere with a flat surface for you to understand it? I am still getting over how you assume that the substance was blue and that it must be a mushroom. Are you on drugs right now? They walked around high for 40 years? Hell, what was the problem? I would have been like, “Yo, Moses, I am not really all into that land of milk and honey thing when we have women, weed and manna right here. Lay back, put your staff down, and puff puff pass”. You assume much my friend. Anything the bible isn’t deep in detail about, you have seemingly assumed some detailed explanation from drugs to how manna needed one day to procreate. Out of everyone who has posted in this thread, yours has been the most “mushroom induced”.

[quote]ToShinDo:
Well said… and understood that there are some chemicals to be found in space. You are obviously current on the searches for building blocks of life. I wasn’t saying that relevant chemicals don’t exist in nature - just that the assumption that they react in just the right way, at just the right place, in just the right time to form even just a simple protein strains credibility even with generous allowances. [/quote]

Thanks, I try! I don’t know if it strains credibility any more than some of the creationist claims, but then obviously that is a point of contention between the two sides. My point was that it ups the probability when you have some molecules “pre-made” as compared to it all happening at once.

[quote] Good point about microbes and stuff living in the dark, I’m sorry I oversimplified the argument. (Biochemistry is not my forte’ and soy protein is always good humor) However, the ‘energy’ that sustains life on earth in places where the sun don’t shine (read that as deep-sea vents, please) is oxygen (or other oxidants) transported by diffusion from the surface. If, as hypothesized, there is a liquid “ocean” under the surface of the crust, and if there was sufficient tidal heating to maintain it, it is still a stretch to assume that oxidants can be transported from the surface to sustain living organisms given that the thickness of the ice is more likely to be several miles thick based on images taken by Galileo and calculations by P. Schenk of the Lunar and Planetary Institute (Nature, vol 417, p. 419, 2002)

But none of this will convince anyone who has already made up his mind that it’s still possible. Nevertheless at some point you have to decide which way the evidence points or doesn’t point. I guess that’s the nature of faith.[/quote]

There are several examples of anaerobic bateria on earth, Klebsiella or Clostridium for example. Who knows what could exist out there?

[quote]
ToShinDo wrote:

…Prof. X: I was not trying to imply that Earth is the only planet with life, I apologize if that’s what you thought. I personally would find it surprising if we turn out to be the only place in the entire universe that has life (it’s been said before, but what a waste of space!)…

Well, it could be a waste of space or it could be a proclamation of how much care (time, effort, whatever) a “God” took to create a place for us.[/quote]

I still lean toward the waste of space (of course!) I look at it like this: I compare the current estimate for the size of the universe with the known size of the Earth. The ratio is 1.55 novemdecillion. (OT, that’s a fun number to say!) or 1.55 x 10e+60 if you like that better. That’s like making a container the size of the sun to hold a single hydrogen atom. A lot of packing peanuts would be required.

Me too.

As I said above, I agree that it’s unlikely that we are it as far as life goes.

[quote]
The Big Bang apparently only works if there is an absence of a center of the universe. The entire concept requires you to believe that the force of life was released once and only once at this point in time and that it was carbon based and landed on Earth where it became a single celled organism that eventually became every living thing on this planet. It also requires you to believe that every solar system in the universe was compressed into a single massive entity yet never questions what this entity was residing in before it exploded with a Bang. Along with that, it apparently requires you to believe that, out of the millions of planetary environments, life just decided that a carbon based life-form would make the most sense. Damn, and some think believing in God is crazy?[/quote]

Well, the concept does not require you to believe that life came about here and only here. That is not a component of the Big Bang theory. And it has been questioned what came before the singularity and what it was in. Since science (currently) has no way to find that out, I doubt we’ll ever know for sure. There are several hypothesises as to what it was (colliding branes for one), but again, they’re just hypothesises. As for carbon, I have stated before that chemically speaking, carbon is the only element that can work. Silicon, might work, but we don’t know yet. Carbon is the only one that can form complex molecules that can be easily rearranged and is pretty abundant across the cosmos.

True. The 2nd law states that closed macroscopic systems tend toward greater entropy. The universe is still expanding at a faster rate than galaxy/star formation. So overall entropy is increasing even while local entropy decreases. Otherwise, babies could never form, as an entropy decrease is needed for the cells to organize thenselves in organs, etc.

Personally I find the Bible to be an interesting religious text, but not much more, ike the Rig Veda or Popol Vuh. Here’s an example: In Genesis, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We all know how this ends. But how would they have known disobeying God was bad? They had no knowledge of Good and Evil, so they would have no concept that obeying God was Good or that disobeying Him was Evil. Then God punished them for something they did not have the capacity to realize was wrong. Even in our prison-happy society we don’t punish people who have no concept (diminshed capacity) that what they did was wrong, they’re put in hospitals. If Adam and Eve did know it was wrong to disobey, then they would have had knowledge of Good and Evil and would have had to reason to eat from the tree.

I do believe there is a possiblity of a catastrophic flood in our prehistory, but farther back than 4500 years ago. I don’t believe it’s enough time to repopulate the whole Earth with people and animals (that is a LOT of humping) and to raise up mountains, erode them, lower valleys, have dinosaurs die and have an Ice Age come and go. We have the Indus Valley civilization , Jericho and the Jomon in Japan dated to more than 6000 years ago. Jomon pottery has been dated to 16,500 years ago using the accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) technique for radiocarbon analysis, now recognized as producing the most reliable results, even on minute quantities of carbon in samples.

I would also like to hear some arguments relating to the vestigial organ post further up. I’ve never really heard any before.

All these being said, I would like to thank everyone on here for keeping this discussion civil (so far!). It hasn’t degraded into name calling like the politcal discussions tend to do. So, thank you for expressing your views calmly and keeping this post interesting!

To-Shin Do

[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Hi, don’t have much time on the net at work, just chucked down some thoughts.
i was not introducing any time line, merely pointing out some interesting concepts which can be used to explain (prove, if you will) various miraculous occurences. Above several posters are intent on proving evolution and physics theory as incorrect based on certain facts - well it can go both ways.

“Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4). And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16: 14). And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.”

above is a quick religious grab - It says this substance rained down from heaven, so why was this just upon the ground? (the face of the wilderness), not on the tent surfaces, bed rolls, in upturned pots, etc? - go outside and watch it hail - any reasonably flat or concave surface will be populated with the hail, not just the ground, thus ‘proving’ that this susbstance could not fall from the sky. Indeed, as stated, this was a substance for all - whether or not you were jewish. Meaning it seems to me this stuff would appear whether the jews were there or not.

Additionally the people are told to gather a “certain rate every day” - to me this means that it is a substance which in itself is natural and needs to reproduce. After all if the people gathered and ate it all, what would be left for the sheep and goats to eat, to carry the spores?

I’ve enjoyed this discussion, reminds me of arguing with the reverend back in school.[/quote]

That is a great idea, too bad is doesn’t explain the quail dropping out of the air just for them for 40 whole years!

It also doesn’t explain the fall of any of the nations that the Hebrew defeated. Especially Jericho since it is obsurd to think the walls of a city being attacked would in the in which they did. Too bad archealogy confirms the exact record of Jericho’s fall.

So the burden of proof is still upon you. There also seems to be an extreme clarity in Moses writings that would not indicate someone who was tripping.

After that you still have to explain all of the other miracles of the people after moses.

DNA, more proof that random chance has painted itself into a corner.

[quote]ShaunW wrote:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm

http://www.lightnet.co.uk/informer/scitech/20000125.htm

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/09.12/CreatingLifeina.html

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article13.html

http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/diatribes010/diatribes189-209/diatribes198.htm
[/quote]

It is amazing what we have accomplished. It is even more astounding to think that the only way these things have been created is through a human creator tampering with things. Even the research that is preformed indicates ID.

It is a strange irony.

Well If God said don’t do something then they would know not too. As far as understanding they should not do it, consider standing on high cliff, why would you not jump? Because you would just know that if you fell you would die. Do you have to jump off of a cliff to know not to do it? Why? Because somethings are instinct. Consider the argument for the Natural Law. We are all born with a certain knowledge of what is ethically/morally wrong.

Radiocarbon Dating has problems. WHile it may be the most accurate, that does not mean it does not have its flaws.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/feedback/negative6-26-2000.asp

I find it interesting that when every Creationist use a God of the gaps theology everyone complains.

The Big bang still has gaps too, and all that is said well this is science and we are working those problems out so it must be true! When the problems are fixed that is when it becomes true.

Until then it is just what you believe, or want to believe is true.

What about carbon dating?
By Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, Ed. Don Batten

First published in The Revised and Expanded Answers Book
Chapter 4

How does the carbon ?clock? work? Is it reliable? What does carbon dating really show? What about other radiometric dating methods? Is there evidence that the earth is young?

---------------------------------------Recommended Resources:
The Revised and Expanded Answers Book
Why Won’t They Listen?
The Lie: Evolution
Refuting Evolution
Refuting Evolution 2

People who ask about carbon-14 (14C) dating usually want to know about the radiometric1 dating methods that are claimed to give millions and billions of years?carbon dating can only give thousands of years. People wonder how millions of years could be squeezed into the biblical account of history.

Clearly, such huge time periods cannot be fitted into the Bible without compromising what the Bible says about the goodness of God and the origin of sin, death and suffering?the reason Jesus came into the world.

Christians, by definition, take the statements of Jesus Christ seriously. He said, ?But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female? (Mark 10:6). This only makes sense with a time-line beginning with the creation week thousands of years ago. It makes no sense at all if man appeared at the end of billions of years.

We will deal with carbon dating first and then with the other dating methods.

How the carbon clock works
Carbon has unique properties that are essential for life on earth. Familiar to us as the black substance in charred wood, as diamonds, and the graphite in ?lead? pencils, carbon comes in several forms, or isotopes. One rare form has atoms that are 14 times as heavy as hydrogen atoms: carbon-14, or 14C, or radiocarbon.

Carbon-14 is made when cosmic rays knock neutrons out of atomic nuclei in the upper atmosphere. These displaced neutrons, now moving fast, hit ordinary nitrogen (14N) at lower altitudes, converting it into 14C. Unlike common carbon (12C), 14C is unstable and slowly decays, changing it back to nitrogen and releasing energy. This instability makes it radioactive.

Ordinary carbon (12C) is found in the carbon dioxide (CO2) in the air, which is taken up by plants, which in turn are eaten by animals. So a bone, or a leaf or a tree, or even a piece of wooden furniture, contains carbon. When the 14C has been formed, like ordinary carbon (12C), it combines with oxygen to give carbon dioxide (14CO2), and so it also gets cycled through the cells of plants and animals.

We can take a sample of air, count how many 12C atoms there are for every 14C atom, and calculate the 14C/12C ratio. Because 14C is so well mixed up with 12C, we expect to find that this ratio is the same if we sample a leaf from a tree, or a part of your body.

In living things, although 14C atoms are constantly changing back to 14N, they are still exchanging carbon with their surroundings, so the mixture remains about the same as in the atmosphere. However, as soon as a plant or animal dies, the 14C atoms which decay are no longer replaced, so the amount of 14C in that once-living thing decreases as time goes on. In other words, the 14C/12C ratio gets smaller. So, we have a ?clock? which starts ticking the moment something dies.

Obviously, this works only for things which were once living. It cannot be used to date volcanic rocks, for example.

The rate of decay of 14C is such that half of an amount will convert back to 14N in 5,730 years (plus or minus 40 years). This is the ?half-life.? So, in two half-lives, or 11,460 years, only one-quarter will be left. Thus, if the amount of 14C relative to 12C in a sample is one-quarter of that in living organisms at present, then it has a theoretical age of 11,460 years. Anything over about 50,000 years old, should theoretically have no detectable 14C left. That is why radiocarbon dating cannot give millions of years. In fact, if a sample contains 14C, it is good evidence that it is not millions of years old.

However, things are not quite so simple. First, plants discriminate against carbon dioxide containing 14C. That is, they take up less than would be expected and so they test older than they really are. Furthermore, different types of plants discriminate differently. This also has to be corrected for.2

Second, the ratio of 14C/12C in the atmosphere has not been constant?for example, it was higher before the industrial era when the massive burning of fossil fuels released a lot of carbon dioxide that was depleted in 14C. This would make things which died at that time appear older in terms of carbon dating. Then there was a rise in 14CO2 with the advent of atmospheric testing of atomic bombs in the 1950s.3 This would make things carbon-dated from that time appear younger than their true age.

Measurement of 14C in historically dated objects (e.g., seeds in the graves of historically dated tombs) enables the level of 14C in the atmosphere at that time to be estimated, and so partial calibration of the ?clock? is possible. Accordingly, carbon dating carefully applied to items from historical times can be useful. However, even with such historical calibration, archaeologists do not regard 14C dates as absolute because of frequent anomalies. They rely more on dating methods that link into historical records.

Outside the range of recorded history, calibration of the 14C clock is not possible.4

Other factors affecting carbon dating
The amount of cosmic rays penetrating the earth?s atmosphere affects the amount of 14C produced and therefore dating the system. The amount of cosmic rays reaching the earth varies with the sun?s activity, and with the earth’s passage through magnetic clouds as the solar system travels around the Milky Way galaxy.

The strength of the earth?s magnetic field affects the amount of cosmic rays entering the atmosphere. A stronger magnetic field deflects more cosmic rays away from the earth. Overall, the energy of the earth?s magnetic field has been decreasing,5 so more 14C is being produced now than in the past. This will make old things look older than they really are.

Also, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total 12C in the biosphere (including the atmosphere?plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total 14C is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more 12C, 14C is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the 14C/12C ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now.

Unless this effect (which is additional to the magnetic field issue just discussed) were corrected for, carbon dating of fossils formed in the flood would give ages much older than the true ages.

Creationist researchers have suggested that dates of 35,000 - 45,000 years should be re-calibrated to the biblical date of the flood.6 Such a re-calibration makes sense of anomalous data from carbon dating?for example, very discordant ?dates? for different parts of a frozen musk ox carcass from Alaska and an inordinately slow rate of accumulation of ground sloth dung pellets in the older layers of a cave where the layers were carbon dated.7

Also, volcanoes emit much CO2 depleted in 14C. Since the flood was accompanied by much volcanism, fossils formed in the early post-flood period would give radiocarbon ages older than they really are.

In summary, the carbon-14 method, when corrected for the effects of the flood, can give useful results, but needs to be applied carefully. It does not give dates of millions of years and when corrected properly fits well with the biblical flood.

Other radiometric dating methods
There are various other radiometric dating methods used today to give ages of millions or billions of years for rocks. These techniques, unlike carbon dating, mostly use the relative concentrations of parent and daughter products in radioactive decay chains. For example, potassium-40 decays to argon-40; uranium-238 decays to lead-206 via other elements like radium; uranium-235 decays to lead-207; rubidium-87 decays to strontium-87; etc. These techniques are applied to igneous rocks, and are normally seen as giving the time since solidification.

The isotope concentrations can be measured very accurately, but isotope concentrations are not dates. To derive ages from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:

The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there).

Decay rates have always been constant.

Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added.

There are patterns in the isotope data
There is plenty of evidence that the radioisotope dating systems are not the infallible techniques many think, and that they are not measuring millions of years. However, there are still patterns to be explained. For example, deeper rocks often tend to give older ?ages.? Creationists agree that the deeper rocks are generally older, but not by millions of years. Geologist John Woodmorappe, in his devastating critique of radioactive dating,8 points out that there are other large-scale trends in the rocks that have nothing to do with radioactive decay.

?Bad? dates
When a ?date? differs from that expected, researchers readily invent excuses for rejecting the result. The common application of such posterior reasoning shows that radiometric dating has serious problems. Woodmorappe cites hundreds of examples of excuses used to explain ?bad? dates.9

For example, researchers applied posterior reasoning to the dating of Australopithecus ramidus fossils.10 Most samples of basalt closest to the fossil-bearing strata give dates of about 23 Ma (Mega annum, million years) by the argon-argon method. The authors decided that was ?too old,? according to their beliefs about the place of the fossils in the evolutionary grand scheme of things. So they looked at some basalt further removed from the fossils and selected 17 of 26 samples to get an acceptable maximum age of 4.4 Ma. The other nine samples again gave much older dates but the authors decided they must be contaminated and discarded them. That is how radiometric dating works. It is very much driven by the existing long-age world view that pervades academia today.

A similar story surrounds the dating of the primate skull known as KNM-ER 1470.11 This started with an initial 212 to 230 Ma, which, according to the fossils, was considered way off the mark (humans ?weren?t around then?). Various other attempts were made to date the volcanic rocks in the area. Over the years an age of 2.9 Ma was settled upon because of the agreement between several different published studies (although the studies involved selection of ?good? from ?bad? results, just like Australopithecus ramidus, above).

However, preconceived notions about human evolution could not cope with a skull like 1470 being ?that old.? A study of pig fossils in Africa readily convinced most anthropologists that the 1470 skull was much younger. After this was widely accepted, further studies of the rocks brought the radiometric age down to about 1.9 Ma?again several studies ?confirmed? this date. Such is the dating game.

Are we suggesting that evolutionists are conspiring to massage the data to get what they want? No, not generally. It is simply that all observations must fit the prevailing paradigm. The paradigm, or belief system, of molecules-to-man evolution over eons of time, is so strongly entrenched it is not questioned?it is a ?fact.? So every observation must fit this paradigm. Unconsciously, the researchers, who are supposedly ?objective scientists? in the eyes of the public, select the observations to fit the basic belief system.

We must remember that the past is not open to the normal processes of experimental science, that is, repeatable experiments in the present. A scientist cannot do experiments on events that happened in the past. Scientists do not measure the age of rocks, they measure isotope concentrations, and these can be measured extremely accurately. However, the ?age? is calculated using assumptions about the past that cannot be proven.

We should remember God?s admonition to Job, ?Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?? (Job 38:4).

Those involved with unrecorded history gather information in the present and construct stories about the past. The level of proof demanded for such stories seems to be much less than for studies in the empirical sciences, such as physics, chemistry, molecular biology, physiology, etc.

Williams, an expert in the environmental fate of radioactive elements, identified 17 flaws in the isotope dating reported in just three widely respected seminal papers that supposedly established the age of the earth at 4.6 billion years.12 John Woodmorappe has produced an incisive critique of these dating methods.13 He exposes hundreds of myths that have grown up around the techniques. He shows that the few ?good? dates left after the ?bad? dates are filtered out could easily be explained as fortunate coincidences.

What date would you like?
The forms issued by radioisotope laboratories for submission with samples to be dated commonly ask how old the sample is expected to be. Why? If the techniques were absolutely objective and reliable, such information would not be necessary. Presumably, the laboratories know that anomalous dates are common, so they need some check on whether they have obtained a ?good? date.

Testing radiometric dating methods
If the long-age dating techniques were really objective means of finding the ages of rocks, they should work in situations where we know the age. Furthermore, different techniques should consistently agree with one another.

Methods should work reliably on things of known age
There are many examples where the dating methods give ?dates? that are wrong for rocks of known age. One example is K-Ar ?dating? of five historical andesite lava flows from Mount Nguaruhoe in New Zealand. Although one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975, the ?dates? range from less than 0.27 to 3.5 Ma.14

Again, using hindsight, it is argued that ?excess? argon from the magma (molten rock) was retained in the rock when it solidified. The secular scientific literature lists many examples of excess argon causing dates of millions of years in rocks of known historical age.15 This excess appears to have come from the upper mantle, below the earth?s crust. This is consistent with a young world?the argon has had too little time to escape.16 If excess argon can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age?

Other techniques, such as the use of isochrons,17 make different assumptions about starting conditions, but there is a growing recognition that such ?foolproof? techniques can also give ?bad? dates. So data are again selected according to what the researcher already believes about the age of the rock.

Geologist Dr Steve Austin sampled basalt from the base of the Grand Canyon strata and from the lava that spilled over the edge of the canyon. By evolutionary reckoning, the latter should be a billion years younger than the basalt from the bottom. Standard laboratories analyzed the isotopes. The rubidium-strontium isochron technique suggested that the recent lava flow was 270 Ma older than the basalts beneath the Grand Canyon?an impossibility.

Different dating techniques should consistently agree
If the dating methods are an objective and reliable means of determining ages, they should agree. If a chemist were measuring the sugar content of blood, all valid methods for the determination would give the same answer (within the limits of experimental error). However, with radiometric dating, the different techniques often give quite different results.

In the study of the Grand Canyon rocks by Austin, different techniques gave different results.18 Again, all sorts of reasons can be suggested for the ?bad? dates, but this is again posterior reasoning. Techniques that give results that can be dismissed just because they don?t agree with what we already believe cannot be considered objective.

In Australia, some wood found in Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was ?dated? by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was ?dated? by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old!19

Isotope ratios or uraninite crystals from the Koongarra uranium body in the Northern Territory of Australia gave lead-lead isochron ages of 841 Ma, plus or minus 140 Ma.20 This contrasts with an age of 1550-1650 Ma based on other isotope ratios,21 and ages of 275, 61, 0,0, and 0 Ma for thorium/lead (232Th/208Pb) ratios in five uraninite grains. The latter figures are significant because thorium-derived dates should be the more reliable, since thorium is less mobile than the uranium minerals that are the parents of the lead isotopes in lead-lead system.22 The ?zero? ages in this case are consistent with the Bible.

More evidence something is wrong?14C in fossils supposedly millions of years old
Carbon dating in many cases seriously embarrasses evolutionists by giving ages that are much younger than those expected from their model of early history. A specimen older than 50,000 years should have too little 14C to measure.

Laboratories that measure 14C would like a source of organic material with zero 14C to use as a blank to check that their lab procedures do not add 14C. Coal is an obvious candidate because the youngest coal is supposed to be millions of years old, and most of it is supposed to be tens or hundreds of millions of years old. Such old coal should be devoid of 14C. It isn’t. No source of coal has been found that completely lacks 14C.

Fossil wood found in ?Upper Permian? rock that is supposedly 250 Ma old still contained 14C.23 Recently, a sample of wood found in rock classified as ?middle Triassic,? supposedly some 230 million years old, gave a 14C date of 33,720 years, plus or minus 430 years.24 The accompanying checks showed that the 14C date was not due to contamination and that the ?date? was valid, within the standard (long ages) understanding of this dating system.

It is an unsolved mystery to evolutionists as to why coal has 14C in it,25 or wood supposedly millions of years old still has 14C present, but it makes perfect sense in a creationist world view.

Many physical evidences contradict the ?billions of years?
Of the methods that have been used to estimate the age of the earth, 90 percent point to an age far less than the billions of years asserted by evolutionists. A few of them follow.

Evidence for a rapid formation of geological strata, as in the biblical flood. Some of the evidences are: lack of erosion between rock layers supposedly separated in age by many millions of years; lack of disturbance of rock strata by biological activity (worms, roots, etc.); lack of soil layers; polystrate fossils (which traverse several rock layers vertically?these could not have stood vertically for eons of time while they slowly got buried); thick layers of ?rock? bent without fracturing, indicating that the rock was all soft when bent; and more. For more, see books by geologists Morris26 and Austin.27

Red blood cells and hemoglobin have been found in some (unfossilized!) dinosaur bone. But these could not last more than a few thousand years?certainly not the 65 Ma since the last dinosaurs lived, according to evolutionists.28

The earth?s magnetic field has been decaying so fast that it looks like it is less than 10,000 years old. Rapid reversals during the flood year and fluctuations shortly after would have caused the field energy to drop even faster.29

Radioactive decay releases helium into the atmosphere, but not much is escaping. The total amount in the atmosphere is 1/2000th of that expected if the universe is really billions of years old. This helium originally escaped from rocks. This happens quite fast, yet so much helium is still in some rocks that it has not had time to escape?certainly not billions of years.30

A supernova is an explosion of a massive star?the explosion is so bright that it briefly outshines the rest of the galaxy. The supernova remnants (SNRs) should keep expanding for hundreds of thousands of years, according to physical equations. Yet there are no very old, widely expanded (Stage 3) SNRs, and few moderately old (Stage 1) ones in our galaxy, the Milky Way, or in its satellite galaxies, the Magellanic Clouds. This is just what we would expect for ?young? galaxies that have not existed long enough for wide expansion.31

The moon is slowly receding from the earth at about 4 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year, and this rate would have been greater in the past. But even if the moon had started receding from being in contact with the earth, it would have taken only 1.37 billion years to reach its present distance from the earth. This gives a maximum age of the moon, not the actual age. This is far too young for evolutionists who claim the moon is 4.6 billion years old. It is also much younger than the radiometric ?dates? assigned to moon rocks.32

Salt is entering the sea much faster than it is escaping. The sea is not nearly salty enough for this to have been happening for billions of years. Even granting generous assumptions to evolutionists, the sea could not be more than 62 Ma years old?far younger than the billions of years believed by the evolutionists. Again, this indicates a maximum age, not the actual age.33

Dr Russell Humphreys gives other processes inconsistent with billions of years in the pamphlet Evidence for a Young World.34

Creationists cannot prove the age of the earth using a particular scientific method, any more than evolutionists can. They realize that all science is tentative because we do not have all the data, especially when dealing with the past. This is true of both creationist and evolutionist scientific arguments?evolutionists have had to abandon many ?proofs? for evolution just as creationists have also had to modify their arguments. The atheistic evolutionist W.B. Provine admitted: ?Most of what I learned of the field [evolutionary biology] in graduate (1964-68) school is either wrong or significantly changed.? 35

Creationists understand the limitations of dating methods better than evolutionists who claim that they can use processes observed in the present to ?prove? that the earth is billions of years old. In reality, all dating methods, including those that point to a young earth, rely on unprovable assumptions.

Creationists ultimately date the earth historically using the chronology of the Bible. This is because they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history, which bears the evidence within it that it is the Word of God, and therefore totally reliable and error-free.

Then what do the radiometric ?dates? mean?
What the do the radiometric dates of millions of years mean, if they are not true ages? To answer this question, it is necessary to scrutinize further the experimental results from the various dating techniques, the interpretations made on the basis of the results and the assumptions underlying those interpretations.

The isochron dating technique was thought to be infallible because it supposedly covered the assumptions about starting conditions and closed systems.

Geologist Dr Andrew Snelling worked on dating the Koongarra uranium deposits in the Northern Territory of Australia, primarily using the uranium-thorium-lead (U-Th-Pb) method. He found that even highly weathered soil samples from the area, which are definitely not closed systems, gave apparently valid ?isochron? lines with ?ages? of up to 1,445 Ma.

Such ?false isochrons? are so common that a whole terminology has grown up to describe them, such as apparent isochron, mantle isochron, pseudoisochron, secondary isochron, inherited isochron, erupted isochron, mixing line and mixing isochron. Zheng wrote:

Some of the basic assumptions of the conventional Rb-Sr [rubidium-strontium] isochron method have to be modified and an observed isochron does not certainly define valid age information for a geological system, even if a goodness of fit of the experimental results is obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr. This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions can also arise in applying Sm-Nd [samarium-neodymium] and U-Pb [uranium-lead] isochron methods.37

Clearly, there are factors other than age responsible for the straight lines obtained from graphing isotope ratios. Again, the only way to know if an isochron is ?good? is by comparing the result with what is already believed.

Another currently popular dating method is the uranium-lead concordia technique. This effectively combines the two uranium-lead decay series into one diagram. Results that lie on the concordia curve have the same age according to the two lead series and are called ?concordant.? However, the results from zircons (a type of gemstone), for example, generally lie off the concordia curve?they are discordant. Numerous models, or stories, have been developed to explain such data.38 However, such exercises in story-telling can hardly be considered as objective science that proves an old earth. Again, the stories are evaluated according to their own success in agreeing with the existing long ages belief system.

Andrew Snelling has suggested that fractionation (sorting) of elements in the molten state in the earth?s mantle could be a significant factor in explaining the ratios of isotope concentrations which are interpreted as ages.

As long ago as 1966, Nobel Prize nominee Melvin Cook, professor of metallurgy at the University of Utah, pointed out evidence that lead isotope ratios, for example, may involve alteration by important factors other than radioactive decay.39 Cook noted that, in ores from the Katanga mine, for example, there was an abundance of lead-208, a stable isotope, but no Thorium-232 as a source for lead-208. Thorium has a long half-life (decays very slowly) and is not easily moved out of the rock, so if the lead-208 came from thorium decay, some thorium should still be there. The concentrations of lead-206, lead-207, and lead-208 suggest that the lead-208 came about by neutron capture conversion of lead-206 to lead-207 to lead-208. When the isotope concentrations are adjusted for such conversions, the ages calculated are reduced from some 600 Ma to recent. Other ore bodies seemed to show similar evidence. Cook recognized that the current understanding of nuclear physics did not seem to allow for such a conversion under normal conditions, but he presents evidence that such did happen, and even suggests how it could happen.

Anomalies in deep rock crystals
Physicist Dr Robert Gentry has pointed out that the amount of helium and lead in zircons from deep bores is not consistent with an evolutionary age of 1,500 Ma for the granite rocks in which they are found.40 The amount of lead may be consistent with current rates of decay over millions of years, but it would have diffused out of the crystals in that time.

Furthermore, the amount of helium in zircons from hot rock is also much more consistent with a young earth (helium derives from the decay of radioactive elements).

The lead and helium results suggest that rates of radioactive decay may have been much higher in the recent past. Humphreys has suggested that this may have occurred during creation week and the flood. This would make things look much older than they really are when current rates of decay are applied to dating. Whatever caused such elevated rates of decay may also have been responsible for the lead isotope conversions claimed by Cook (above).

Orphan radiohalos
Decaying radioactive particles in solid rock cause spherical zones of damage to the surrounding crystal structure. A speck of radioactive element such as Uranium-238, for example, will leave a sphere of discoloration of characteristically different radius for each element it produces in its decay chain to lead-206.41 Viewed in cross-section with a microscope, these spheres appear as rings called radiohalos. Dr Gentry has researched radiohalos for many years, and published his results in leading scientific journals.42

Some of the intermediate decay products?such as the polonium isotopes?have very short half-lives (they decay quickly). For example, 218Po has a half-life of just 3 minutes. Curiously, rings formed by polonium decay are often found embedded in crystals without the parent uranium halos. Now the polonium has to get into the rock before the rock solidifies, but it cannot derive a from a uranium speck in the solid rock, otherwise there would be a uranium halo. Either the polonium was created (primordial, not derived from uranium), or there have been radical changes in decay rates in the past.

Gentry has addressed all attempts to criticize his work.43 There have been many attempts, because the orphan halos speak of conditions in the past, either at creation or after, perhaps even during the flood, which do not fit with the uniformitarian view of the past, which is the basis of the radiometric dating systems. Whatever process was responsible for the halos could be a key also to understanding radiometric dating.44

Conclusion
There are many lines of evidence that the radiometric dates are not the objective evidence for an old earth that many claim, and that the world is really only thousands of years old. We don’t have all the answers, but we do have the sure testimony of the Word of God to the true history of the world.

Actually, you do not need to know evil to go against what you were told not to do. To obey, you only need to know to obey. Obey is what they did…until easily pursuaded by evil incarnate to do the wrong thing. Once all was known to them, they had shame for being unclothed and lost their innocence. The Garden was pure before that point as were their minds. He removed the tainted minds from the pure Garden and set an angel to guard the entrance. You claim this is strictly punishment when it truth, it would seem to be necessity.

I know some of you may trip, but use the movie the Matrix as an example…only because they used the same concept. In the Matrix, Neo was told that there had been many versions of the Matrix. In the original, everything was perfect and all needs were met…but the minds of men wouldn’t allow them to accept the purity of the situation so they rejected it. In the mind of someone who knows pain as well as pleasure (yin/yang), there can not be an existance devoid of it. We will destroy it the same way we have collectively polluted this planet. That is because we know of both good and evil…and we are no longer innocent.

[quote]T-Doff wrote:
Well, of course, not really infinite since it’s size must be bounded by a beginning in space-time (the big bang) and therefore has a limit but not necessarily an “edge” [/quote]

(looking and the lumps and smoothness of galaxies etc. Also one model from Albert Eistein regarding the three possibilites of the universe. Flat, open, closed.) He predicted a Flat Universe prior to this.

If you check my post again you will notice there is some research regarding the existence of more than one “big bang” Where is the Universe expanding from? It has no center so it can not expand from a point. The Universe has no center. You are correct that there is no “edge”, but recent finding support and infinite universe with of course no center.

[quote]T-Doff wrote:
Still a theory, although I accept it since the evidence is clear, consistent, and nearly undeniable…
[/quote]

The reason why we know so much about the universe is because back then toward the minsicule seconds of the “first” or “the big bang” occuring THE UNIVERSE was simpler than it is now. :slight_smile:

[quote]T-Doff wrote:
but seriously, I’d just like to add that the Big Bang implies a beginning, which implies a beginner.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Consider what I mentioned a good way into my previous post about the possibility of there being MORE THAN one big bang… This may mean the big bang we know of may not have been the beginning in reality… AND consider lastly and ultimately that there is a possibilty of no creator…

I am aware and OPEN to both POSSIBLE outcomes. >Personally, Always Hoping Your Right Buddy. :slight_smile:

Just can not deny the latter.

Perhaps Camus is right or perhaps you are…

Albert Camus, existentialist philosopher:

Humans are creatures who spend their lives trying to convince themselves that their existence is not absurd.

-Get Lifted

Prof.
That is an interesting way to put it. once corrupted they could no longer accept it. I like it. I would not say that is how it is though. I really don’t fully understand God’s reasoning behind it.

I know punishment it how it is portrayed, but if God foretold the consequence of the action based on His foreknowledge of our reaction to the corruption of His creation is certainly and idea that is most valid.

I think you are now beginning to wax philosophical.

Great thought!

Technical article on Dark Energy

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0601skepticism.asp

Secular scientists blast the big bang
What now for na?ve apologetics?

by Carl Wieland

It?s amazing to see how many Christian leaders have not merely tolerated the ?big bang? idea, but embraced it wholeheartedly. To hear their pronouncements, believers should welcome it as a major plank in our defense of the faith. ?At last, we can use science to prove there?s a creator of the universe.?

However, the price of succumbing to the lure of secular acceptability, at least in physics and astronomy, has been heavy. We have long warned that adopting the big bang into Christian thought is like bringing the wooden horse within the walls of Troy. This is because:

The big bang forces acceptance of a sequence of events totally incompatible with the Bible (e.g. earth after sun instead of earth before sun?see Two worldviews in conflict and How could the days of Genesis 1 be literal if the Sun wasn?t created until the fourth day?)

The big bang?s billions of years of astronomical evolution are not only based on naturalistic assumptions, they are contrary to the words of Jesus Himself, who said people were there from the beginning, not towards the end of an interminably long ?creation? process (Mark 10:6)?see Jesus and the age of the world.

The slow evolution of the stars, then solar system and planets (including earth) in big bang thinking means that ?big bang Christians? are invariably dragged into accepting ?geological evolution? (millions of years for the earth?s fossil-bearing rocks to be laid down). So they end up denying the global Flood, and accepting death, bloodshed and disease (as seen in the fossils) before Adam. This removes the Fall and the Curse on creation from any effect on the real world, as well as removing the biblical answer Christians have always had to the problem of suffering and evil (God made a perfect world, ruined by sin). See Terrorists and Death and The god of an old earth.

Marrying one?s theology to today?s science means that one is likely to be widowed tomorrow.

In fact, the signs are strong that exactly that is happening, and that those who have ?bought? the big bang for its allegedly irrefutable science have been ?sold a pup?. A bombshell ?Open Letter to the Scientific Community? by 33 leading scientists has been published on the internet (www.cosmologystatement.org) and in New Scientist (Lerner, E., Bucking the big bang, New Scientist 182(2448)20, 22 May 2004). An article on www.rense.com titled ?Big bang theory busted by 33 top scientists? (27 May 2004) says, ?Our ideas about the history of the universe are dominated by big bang theory. But its dominance rests more on funding decisions than on the scientific method, according to Eric Lerner, mathematician Michael Ibison of Earthtech.org, and dozens of other scientists from around the world.?

The open letter includes statements such as:

?The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed?inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory.?

?But the big bang theory can?t survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation. ? Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory?s explanation of the origin of the light elements.? [This refers to the horizon problem, and supports what we say in Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang.]

?In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory [emphasis in original].?

?What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory?s supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centred cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.?

The dissidents say that there are other explanations of cosmology that do make some successful predictions. These other models don?t have all the answers to objections, but, they say, ?That is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined.?

Those who urge Christians to accept the big bang as a ?science fact? point to its near-universal acceptance by the scientific community. However, the 33 dissidents describe a situation familiar to many creationist scientists: ?An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences ? doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.? Evolutionist and historian of science, Evelleen Richards, has noticed that it?s hard even for rival evolutionary theories to get a hearing when challenging the ruling paradigm?see Science ? a reality check. This should give some idea of the difficulties biblical creationists face.

But don?t we read, even in the daily newspapers, about many ?observations? that only ever seem to support the big bang? In fact, these prominent secular scientists say:

?Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed.?

Science is a wonderful human tool, but it needs to be understood, not worshipped. It is fallible, changing, and is severely limited as to what it can and cannot determine. As AiG has often pointed out, instead of a scientific concept, the big-bang idea is more a dogmatic religious one?based on the religion of humanism. As these big-bang opposers point out:

?Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method?the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible.?

Furthermore, contrary to the na?ve pronouncements of many who should know better, it is not in any sense a matter of ?looking into a telescope and ?seeing? the big bang billions of years ago.? As always, observations are interpreted and filtered through worldview lenses. Those who developed the big bang were guided by secular worldview filters just as much as those who are now crying that the emperor has no clothes. They wanted a universe that created itself; their opponents want an eternal, uncreated universe. From a Christian perspective, both are in open defiance of their Creator?s account of what really happened.

With Darwinism on the run, the Enemy of souls is seeking to seduce believers into embracing a more subtle, yet far deadlier way of evading the authority of the Bible. With progressive creationism/big-bangery rampaging through the evangelical community, he must think he is on a winner.

NEW BOOK!
Refuting Compromise
Dr Jonathan Sarfati
The most powerful and scientific defense of a straightforward view of Genesis creation ever written.

ORDER YOUR COPY TODAY

For a powerful, profound exposition of all of the issues involved in this, today?s most important evangelical compromise position, my colleague Dr Jonathan Sarfati?s just-released book Refuting Compromise is not just a casual recommendation ?for further reading?. Chapter 5 pokes holes into the big bang, showing how it has become a ruling paradigm, supported by fallacious logic and ignoring many scientific problems?some confirmed by the above letter from big-bang?dissenting evolutionary cosmologists. It also shows how one can use a ?first cause? argument without needing the big bang. The book is in fact destined to become a Christian classic, a culture-changing colossus of ?cut-through-the-smokescreen? clarity and logic. I urge all who are reading this to get Refuting Compromise, read it, lend it and give it out far and wide.

If they were created already knowing what was right and wrong, they would have had no need of eating from the tree.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
Actually, you do not need to know evil to go against what you were told not to do. To obey, you only need to know to obey. [/quote]
And why do you obey? Because it goes along with you own ideas of right and wrong or you know it is bad to disobey (i.e. bad=punishment) They did not have this capacity.

Which they had no idea was wrong!

I’ve never understood why being naked was evil/bad. It’s not like there was anyone else around to see. Naked as bad (and the shame that goes along with your “naughty bits”) seems to be mostly a Christian invention.

[quote]The Garden was pure before that point as were their minds. He removed the tainted minds from the pure Garden and set an angel to guard the entrance. You claim this is strictly punishment when it truth, it would seem to be necessity.

[quote]

To-Shin Do