Melding Evolution and Creationism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]roamer82 wrote:
haney,
Last history of science course I took addressed the very issue of translation of ancient works. Its somewhat ironic you mention Aristotle, our Proffesor claimed there is much speculation that Aristotle distorted the work of his predessecors. Unfortunately it is primarily through Aristotle that we get this information. Libraries and literacy were very rare in those days. Unfortunately raids and wars that destroyed literature weren’t uncommon Anyways my point is it is hard is hell to determine what a lot of ancient text means, since so often there was distortion from one specefic source. Also it is the job of the scholar who is fluent in this test to translate it, much as you like to think this is not a clear cut case, especially when an agenda motivates it.
[/quote]

Aristotle distorting the work of his predeccessors, is different then His work not being translated correctly. His opinion on someones work is not the same as this is not correct.

If you were to find one manuscript from the NT that had an extreme contrast between it and all the others than that would say something. There are none as of today that differ. I am guessing you did not read my post on all of the things that make the Bible unique. If you had then you would not even be bringing this argument up. There are fewer questions about the Bible being correct than there are about shakespeare’s plays. Not one of the questions about the Bible would even effect the message (they are spelling question about certain words).
The question about shakespeare change the ending of many of his plays dramatically.

So to make this argument you would need to show some extreme text that differed. Which as stated as of today does not exist.

As far as an agenda what agenda would the fishermen have? To over throw the religious leaders of their time, and conquere the roman empire? They did a great job of that by having Jesus say put away your sword. What angenda would survive when you preach peace, and then the ruler of the roman empire dips your followers in tar and then sets them on fire at night? Especially when all they had to do to avoid it was just simply say you are right Nero is God. Yeah that is the best agenda ever!

It is easy to say there are problems with the translation, it is harder to prove it since we have more copies of the origional mss than any other ancient book. I think it is 24,000 copies. Homer and Aristotle are around 500. There is no comparison.

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haney,
You know I kinda looked over my last post and I sound like a know it all prick. I guess I’m gonna shut my mouth form here on out, I really don’t know much on the history of bible, nor the content. For some weird reason I was just spouting off arguments I’ve heard, but never investigated on my own. I can honestly say I’ve learned something about ones thoughts, sometimes they aren’t even your own.

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[quote]roamer82 wrote:
haney,
You know I kinda looked over my last post and I sound like a know it all prick. I guess I’m gonna shut my mouth form here on out, I really don’t know much on the history of bible, nor the content. For some weird reason I was just spouting off arguments I’ve heard, but never investigated on my own. I can honestly say I’ve learned something about ones thoughts, sometimes they aren’t even your own.

[/quote]

Well I appreciate your reflective view. We all fall guilty to just spouting off someone’s arguments time and again. I am not an expert in the Bible, but I have done my research on the culture and influence surrounding it. If you have any questions about it I would be more than willing to try and answer. I will also be honest and tell you when I don’t know something. Which is verified by a post between me and toshindo.

264

Wow How did I miss this topic? WTF?

some people are brainwashed here and I won’t say who… needless to say anyone who belives that THIER religion is the 100% accurate way things happend are brainwashed. there might be some truth in all religions, however all written words have come from man and not god, and no human interpretation of gods essence can capture it wholly. I personallt think the new age movement is closer to the essence of god because e have a ton more genral knowledge of how the univers works, so our interpretations of divine knowledge can be more accurate. Or maybe more realistic. for instance, does everyone know of the canary Islands? and the one remaining volcanic cone that has yet to fully erupt? when it does… (not if) a chunk of land the size of a small city will fall into the atlantic ocean, the tidal wave set off will engulf the entire east coast of the americas. there will be a secondary wave that will be slower, lower but much longer that pushes back towards europe and africa. Since there were 3 cones origionally and 2 have already fallen in… might noas flood been this rebound effect of one of those massive tidal waves? we obviously all know that it is impossible for it to rain hard enough all around the world to flood the entire world. Even if all the polar ice caps melted there would still be land masses. And if the polar ice caps melted, it would not rain all over the world. The oceans would rise maybe some violent storms… but rain for 30 days or whatever? … No

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Well the wording of the Bible is the waters of the deep broke up. So not only did it “rain” but there would of been a contintental drift, and waters from below the surface would of sprung up too. So While you idea of a volcanic erruption might help explain what happened, (which in some way would fit with what I believe.) It would not account for Noah knowing that he needed to build an Ark ahead of time.

It is nice that you think certain unnamed people are brainwashed. Yet you have never seen things the way they see them, nor have you done the same research that they have. I think it is extremely one sided to say that about certain people on here.

As far as new age being somewhat right I would like to hear your reasons on that.

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I don’t think they are more right… I just think they have more capability to understand and interperet divine thought. I believe in general, people are more Knowledgable today than they were 1000 years ago. I also believe this knowledge allows one to understand more of the unknown, or at least theorize about the possibilities of such an unknown. Say a caveman with limited knowledge of how the world works, much less the universe were to see a meteor shower. He would view this as communication from god, or at least a spiritually inclined caveman would. He might then try to interpret this message from god, maybe he kiiled a hog that day and it had babbies. but he killed the mother anyways. He sees this meteor shower and the only thing he can relate it to is killing a mother hog… He might interpret this communication from some unknown power that it is not ok to kill a mother hog. or any hog. you see what I am getting at don’t you?

think about the knowledge level of the people of the time when the bible or any old holy book was written. a high school student knows more by far. the world was still flat at that point in time and the world was the center of the universe. Interpretations such as why a violent storm happens or why a swarm of locusts destroys a crop field were obviously gods doing. And while I will say yes they are gods doing or whatever, I don’t think the bible is the sole authority as to WHY these things happened at the time and place they did. They make the meaning up to fit thier agenda… or belief system. Even if they used the most logical thought process they had available, it is still a far cry from the ability of modern man to understand complex ideas theories and happenings. If a swarm of locusts destroys a farmers field… is he supposed to think god sent them? or is he supposed to think that that is just how things in nature work.

I am not 100% sure what your position is on the bible but I take it that you think the bible is the only word of god written? I take it that every written word is gods.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
I don’t think they are more right… I just think they have more capability to understand and interperet divine thought. I believe in general, people are more Knowledgable today than they were 1000 years ago. I also believe this knowledge allows one to understand more of the unknown, or at least theorize about the possibilities of such an unknown. Say a caveman with limited knowledge of how the world works, much less the universe were to see a meteor shower. He would view this as communication from god, or at least a spiritually inclined caveman would. He might then try to interpret this message from god, maybe he kiiled a hog that day and it had babbies. but he killed the mother anyways. He sees this meteor shower and the only thing he can relate it to is killing a mother hog… He might interpret this communication from some unknown power that it is not ok to kill a mother hog. or any hog. you see what I am getting at don’t you?

think about the knowledge level of the people of the time when the bible or any old holy book was written. a high school student knows more by far. the world was still flat at that point in time and the world was the center of the universe. Interpretations such as why a violent storm happens or why a swarm of locusts destroys a crop field were obviously gods doing. And while I will say yes they are gods doing or whatever, I don’t think the bible is the sole authority as to WHY these things happened at the time and place they did. They make the meaning up to fit thier agenda… or belief system. Even if they used the most logical thought process they had available, it is still a far cry from the ability of modern man to understand complex ideas theories and happenings. If a swarm of locusts destroys a farmers field… is he supposed to think god sent them? or is he supposed to think that that is just how things in nature work.

I am not 100% sure what your position is on the bible but I take it that you think the bible is the only word of god written? I take it that every written word is gods.[/quote]

Well I think you are giving ancient people a bad wrap. They understood far more than we give them credit for. While many of the things that happened in their day was associated with God, that does not mean there was a lack of understanding of the surrounding world. I posted an article that talked about how we found an ancient battery in the area of iraq. As far as our advancments are concerned there are still many things that were done thousand of years ago that we still have not been able to accomplish (pyramids, almost anything rome built, etc.). It is interesting the ideas that we have about God have not changed much either.

To say the Bible is the sole source would line up with what I believe. It is not a leap that I just made without reason. I always hear well man wrote it so even if it was from God it is not His full word. I find this to be a strange thought, and very limiting to a being that can harness all of Nature. If God is in charge of all of these comsmic forces surely making sure we don’t change His word would be with in His power. The fact that the Bible survived through mass attempts to destroy is not full evidence that it is from God, but it certainly shows a certain mark of the respect people have had for it. Why work so hard to preserve a book of stories?

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t New Age believe everything is God? We are all God? That all is harmonious nature?

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“Correct me if I am from, but doesn’t New Age believe everything is God? We are all God? That all is harmonious nature?”

Somewhat, All is harmonious in gods eyes, not necisarrily our eyes. God has no fear of not existing. Therefore he has no pain, no suffering, he has no loss. We endure these things as smaller parts of god, as beings that have been given fear of non existance. We have also been given hope and love, which god can also not understand as himself. God has to love through us and hate through us (as well as any other realities he may create). God is true neutrality, no good or bad, just pure entropy. it is complex and I don’t have all the answers, only fleeting visions and concepts that grow and grow untill they implode upon themselves in my head. It is just as good of a belief system as anyone else can claim, and it feels right to me. I guess if someone really wants to believe the bible is the literal written word of god himself, that is thier choosing. They make the argument that the book has been around for so long and yadda yadda. But if thier god was so influential, so magnificaent, why would he not write a book that grabbed every human by the sould and left them no chance to not believe it’s teachings? Why can I read “gods word” and find human corruption, greed and power hungry drivel disguised as a chocolate cake. That fact alone should say something.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:

Somewhat, All is harmonious in gods eyes, not necisarrily our eyes. God has no fear of not existing. Therefore he has no pain, no suffering, he has no loss. We endure these things as smaller parts of god, as beings that have been given fear of non existance. We have also been given hope and love, which god can also not understand as himself. God has to love through us and hate through us (as well as any other realities he may create). God is true neutrality, no good or bad, just pure entropy.
[/quote]

Well in that case there is no good or bad. They are just inventions that we have come up with. So the murderer in Cell block C really never did anything wrong, and we are punishing Him for no good reason. Since God is nuetral He would care less, and I would think It would be wrong for us to force our ideas of good on any such person. After all we are all on the same level. So who are we to say what is right?

Well that is how I see God. More complex than my feeble mind can understand.

Well why create suffering? Why have pain? why death? That just begs the question, and would rob men of free will. If I say hey come and live at my house it is the best house around, and you don’t ask directions is that my fault? If I tell you hey grab the direction that are in this book, and you say no thanks. Does that mean I failed? No you had a choice.

[quote]
Why can I read “gods word” and find human corruption, greed and power hungry drivel disguised as a chocolate cake. That fact alone should say something.[/quote]

you see the corruption of men in the Bible as a great sign that there is something wrong. I see the problems with the men in the Bible as a sign that we are all like them. You cannot name one thing in the Bible that was done by those men that is not repeated today by all of us. The men were not praised for their failures, they were instead shown grace. There is a picture of man’s weakness and God’s mercy that shines through the Bible. The OT lines up in Harmony with the NT that it is by God’s grace. The Bible puts all men on equal playing ground in that all can never do it on their own. The Bible is filled with some of the biggest losers that are ever recorded in history, and it does not speak kindly of them when they fail. It does speak kindly of God’s mercy towards mankind.

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“Well why create suffering? Why have pain? why death? That just begs the question, and would rob men of free will. If I say hey come and live at my house it is the best house around, and you don’t ask directions is that my fault? If I tell you hey grab the direction that are in this book, and you say no thanks. Does that mean I failed? No you had a choice.”

That is quite simple… Can god suffer? What would he suffer about? he (she whatever) is perfect as far as being perfect can go. Can god die? Not as many believe him to be… eternal. Can god feel pain? what could possibly cause something that can never be extinguished to feel pain? can god even truly love? If god has no possible way of knowing fearing anything can he really love anything?

These things were created for god to know these things. It is the classic example of how beutiful a candle light is against a dark night sky. How beutiful is that candle light when it is held up in front of the full summer sun? you can’t even see it. you must have dark to have light, you must have bad to have good, you must have hate to know love.

I will go further in depth when I have more time.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
“Well why create suffering? Why have pain? why death? That just begs the question, and would rob men of free will. If I say hey come and live at my house it is the best house around, and you don’t ask directions is that my fault? If I tell you hey grab the direction that are in this book, and you say no thanks. Does that mean I failed? No you had a choice.”

That is quite simple… Can god suffer? What would he suffer about? he (she whatever) is perfect as far as being perfect can go. Can god die? Not as many believe him to be… eternal. Can god feel pain? what could possibly cause something that can never be extinguished to feel pain? can god even truly love? If god has no possible way of knowing fearing anything can he really love anything?

These things were created for god to know these things. It is the classic example of how beutiful a candle light is against a dark night sky. How beutiful is that candle light when it is held up in front of the full summer sun? you can’t even see it. you must have dark to have light, you must have bad to have good, you must have hate to know love.

I will go further in depth when I have more time.[/quote]

Well If God was Christ then He would of suffered, and Loved. All without forcing us too. You also confine the infinite in saying He does not have these things. He may and He may not.

For instance God can hate and still be just( he would hate wrong). God can be angry(He could be angry at those who disobey) and still be just. While they may or may not be traits of God that does not mean it is beyond Him. We are on an experience needed to understand basis. God who could control everything would not be on that type of basis. Once again though If God does not know evil then how do we know evil? We would be making this up as we go. If God would not have a standard than why do we? You are bringing in a philosophy on God that would have no standards. So one must ask why are there boundries? Who came up with these boundries? Why must I follow that person idea of a boundry?

This idea is talked about in the Bible too. It usally says and everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

From that we can see what happens when the playing field between man and God is leveled. There is no appeal to authority therefore there is no real right, and there is no wrong. It is everyone does as they choose.

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Christ was human … same as you and me. God is everything including everything that is not human. you did not even try to understand the thought process that I proposed. Not saying that it is the way things ARE… but you didn’t even comprehend it.

it’s ok not everyone is meant to be on the same path. You have a different path and I am fine with it. I have a different path than you do, there is nothing wrong with either path, as long as we can both be happy in doing what we are doing, we are both on the right path.

Take Care

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
Christ was human … same as you and me. God is everything including everything that is not human. you did not even try to understand the thought process that I proposed. Not saying that it is the way things ARE… but you didn’t even comprehend it.
[/quote]

No I understood what you are getting at. That doesn’t mean I agree with it though. In a discussion between two people that have different views I would expect the other to counter with how he sees the info. I get your drift about God being perfect so He would never know these things, that we are extensions of God. That He is experiencing these things through us. I have read plenty of New Age material. That does not mean I think it is correct. As far as Christ being Human the written accounts we have of Him say He thought was God. Not an extension of God but God Himself. Could He still be Human? Yeah, but then we would have to ask if He is insane. He certainly didn’t show any signs of being insane.

[quote]
it’s ok not everyone is meant to be on the same path. You have a different path and I am fine with it. I have a different path than you do, there is nothing wrong with either path, as long as we can both be happy in doing what we are doing, we are both on the right path.

Take Care[/quote]

I agree. I am not here to convert you to my way of thinking. I am mostly here to show that people who have faith, and especially the faith I have are not just fools who have no reason to believe what they believe. It is my hope though that I am wrong about my faith. If I am not wrong, then we are not both on the right path, and your fate, and many others would be a shame.

Also I would disagree that God is everything, instead I would say my pov is He is in everything. Similiar to the air I breath it is not a part of me but it is inside me, and with out it I cease to live.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
Christ was human … same as you and me. God is everything including everything that is not human. you did not even try to understand the thought process that I proposed. Not saying that it is the way things ARE… but you didn’t even comprehend it.

it’s ok not everyone is meant to be on the same path. You have a different path and I am fine with it. I have a different path than you do, there is nothing wrong with either path, as long as we can both be happy in doing what we are doing, we are both on the right path.

Take Care[/quote]

Also while your idea of a candle held up to a night sky is a shining example of how we would instantly know right from wrong because it would shine out. Then your thought process could explain away all of the gray areas of wrong too?
From what I gather you are saying is that the standard of good would always exist since the evil would be everywhere. Ok, so then why do we still have gray areas? for instance abortion, homosexuality, war, drugs and etc… These are in high debate over them being wrong or right. There is even high debate over is there even such a thing as right or wrong. which if no higher power had a standard than then there would most certainly be a question of did we make these things up?

I have heard your ideas before, but no one has explained away when is something wrong? If God gave us that ability, then we should be able to see clearly the wrong that exists. It seems that we don’t.

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“I have heard your ideas before, but no one has explained away when is something wrong? If God gave us that ability, then we should be able to see clearly the wrong that exists. It seems that we don’t.”

ok I’ll adress a few things here, the candle theory can be used for grey areas, even though it is only really a sybolism. but… say it were in a dimly lit room instead of against the dark night sky, it would still be nice but not quite as stunning as against the night sky. Or in a brightly lit room, it would be a little drowned out but you would still be able to see it.

Right and wrong were and are created by man. Society determines what is right and wrong for humans. Animals don’t have to worry about right and wrong because there is only survival. (untill we domesticate them that is) (my dog knows it is wrong to get on the couch)
trend setters, people or groups with power make things right or wrong. In high school, the popular kids dictate what is acceptable dress and how to act in order to be accepted by them. Now some kids don’t give a crap what others think and have therefore taken the power away from the popular kids and given it to themselves. They decide what is right and wrong. This does not mean total chaos insues in high school, but certainly there will be power struggles.

Right and wrong basically boils down to control, who has it, why they have it, and how they use it. Some people use control for the benefit of all, some use it for the benefit of a few or themselves. It is wrong to kill, yet in self defense we have deemed it acceptable. Why? what if a person is just plain rotten, i.e. a major disruption to the society? Should they be permanately removed? should they just be killed? who makes that decision? people with power make those decisions. In america, by and large the populace HAS the power. The gay marriage thing got shot down because the society did not want it. sure a portion of them wanted it but so did a portion of america want to have slaves. if everything goes the way it is currently going there will be no debating gay marriage, it will not be allowed in society and will be frowned upon as if someone today were to say they think slavery is ok and they want to own a slave.

anyways I ramble too much

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
“I have heard your ideas before, but no one has explained away when is something wrong? If God gave us that ability, then we should be able to see clearly the wrong that exists. It seems that we don’t.”

ok I’ll adress a few things here, the candle theory can be used for grey areas, even though it is only really a sybolism. but… say it were in a dimly lit room instead of against the dark night sky, it would still be nice but not quite as stunning as against the night sky. Or in a brightly lit room, it would be a little drowned out but you would still be able to see it.

Right and wrong were and are created by man. Society determines what is right and wrong for humans. Animals don’t have to worry about right and wrong because there is only survival. (untill we domesticate them that is) (my dog knows it is wrong to get on the couch) trend setters, people or groups with power make things right or wrong. In high school, the popular kids dictate what is acceptable dress and how to act in order to be accepted by them. Now some kids don’t give a crap what others think and have therefore taken the power away from the popular kids and given it to themselves. They decide what is right and wrong. This does not mean total chaos insues in high school, but certainly there will be power struggles.

Right and wrong basically boils down to control, who has it, why they have it, and how they use it. Some people use control for the benefit of all, some use it for the benefit of a few or themselves. It is wrong to kill, yet in self defense we have deemed it acceptable. Why? what if a person is just plain rotten, i.e. a major disruption to the society? Should they be permanately removed? should they just be killed? who makes that decision? people with power make those decisions. In america, by and large the populace HAS the power. The gay marriage thing got shot down because the society did not want it. sure a portion of them wanted it but so did a portion of america want to have slaves. if everything goes the way it is currently going there will be no debating gay marriage, it will not be allowed in society and will be frowned upon as if someone today were to say they think slavery is ok and they want to own a slave.

anyways I ramble too much[/quote]

So molesting a child could be ok if society deemed it ok? The child would have no feeling of being violated because society would feel it is right? The child would thus accept it, and we would move on? right?

As far as murder, and self defense. I would assume most people would be very broke up about taking a life. So even then we could easily say that there is a sense that it is wrong, not because society deemed it that way but because the person has a built in law saying that it is wrong to take a life. Even in self defense I doubt someone would not feel an extreme sense of loss.

I don’t think I explained that last part very well but I think you get my point.

At this point it is nothing more than philosophy, which usually is nothing more than anything can be a possibility. There really don’t seem to be any constants in your path. Just men trying to control things. Right and wrong subjective to those who control things.

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“As far as murder, and self defense. I would assume most people would be very broke up about taking a life. So even then we could easily say that there is a sense that it is wrong, not because society deemed it that way but because the person has a built in law saying that it is wrong to take a life. Even in self defense I doubt someone would not feel an extreme sense of loss.”

well I think you are applying these things to “american” society, if I remember right the taliban used to kill and torture women fow showing skin in public. I’m sure they didn’t feel bad about doing it either. In fact they felt it would be wrong to NOT kill them.

And isn’t there a practice in africa in which girls have thier privates mutilated? do they do this because they are all evil people? no they do it because for some damn reason thier society thinks it is right to do this. We obviously know it is not right.

And, yes it is possible for a society to think that molesting children is RIGHT, look at the sick fucks in NAMBLA if there is a group that large that thinks it’s right then why not an entire society. of course these are extreme examples but it is a way to more clearly understand how right and wrong are created. right and wrong do not come from god, I’m sorry they just don’t god wants both right and wrong to happen. what freaking purpose would god have to make beings, throw them on a planet, and just life thier lifes, and “good” ones go to heaven with him, “bad” ones go to hell. he made them he should already know who is going where, so then the question becomes, why send anyone to hell. why does god feel the need to test us like that… I didn’t ask him to create me. maybe if I had real free will he would have asked me if I wanted to do this in the first place. doesn’t seem like free will to me. ok so say I take a couple rats and have em run a maze. two ends of the maze have posonus food, the other two have good food. the rats can go and eat whatever they want, do they have free will? no I put them in a situation where they have to choose life or death, and they are probably mostly unaware or totally unaware that they are even making that decision. what about people who lived before the bible? all in heavan? all in hell? all in pergatory? what about people who have never had the chance to be exposed to the bible? what about a little boy who is raped by a minister so he denounces the church and his religion? he going to heaven? I’d also like to discuss this idea of a priest being infallable when he is preaching in the house of god. care to start that debate with me? why are there some preiests now then who are saying it is ok to be gay? Directly against the bible, yet they are infallable?

hmmmm rambling again?

and yes I have no order to my thought process, I just spew ideas that pop into my head. :wink:

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
well I think you are applying these things to “american” society, if I remember right the taliban used to kill and torture women fow showing skin in public. I’m sure they didn’t feel bad about doing it either. In fact they felt it would be wrong to NOT kill them.
[/quote]
No I am applying what is known as the Natural law. to these things. They think it is punishment, just because they have accepted that as a fact of life does not mean that when they first killed someone they did not have reservations when they took human life. Civilizations have been accustomed to killings for years, when they used to give the death penalty sure many people watched, but few were capable of being an executioner. Why? because they would have death upon their conscience.

What about the people who are molested. Just because the adults accept it does not mean the child is ok with it. If the child would not be ok with it then we would ask where does the child get those feelings? That would be the Natural law. Just because we get older we tend to pervert it does not mean there is not a natural law.

I could ask you the same why would God want us to live our life so he could experience good and evil? It seems a little self serving of God wouldn’t you think? It would also seem like we would be some test tube project that once it has run it course is thrown out.

It would not be an issue of good vs. bad. It would be an issue of atoned vs. unatoned, redeemed vs. unredeemed.

He may already know. Foreknowledge does not equal ordained will. Well if I invite you to my house, and you turn me down that is not my fault. That would be your choice.

Ok lets give free will to somethnig that doesn’t even exist. God could ask nothing if it wanted to be created.

Well lets say you could communicate with the rat, and lets say you told the rate what is awaiting him, and lets say you even point to where the poison is. The rat at that point would have free will. This is not some nondisclosure type of thing.

Those who truly seek God usually find Him. There is a story of a man from joppa in the book of acts that talks about how God revealed Himself to the man because He earnestly sought after Him.

When did I say anyone was infallable? When did I even say I was Catholic? Or even believe in Priests? I think all people are capable of doing some extremely horrible things. I make no excuses for them, or myself. If my believes are right, then I don’t deserve to go to Heaven it is by His grace that I am allowed. If I was God I would of wiped this planet out long ago. My mercy is not even a shadow of what His would be.

[quote]
hmmmm rambling again?

and yes I have no order to my thought process, I just spew ideas that pop into my head. ;)[/quote]

I would just say you got a little passionate about this topic. You are more than welcome to view it however you like.

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I can see where you are coming from. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Neither can be proven except in the deepest medetations of our inner self. You believe in a god that has a purpose of testing beings he created. I am still unsure of WHY you think he did this. But nonetheless in your view only those of us who prove to be worthy will be rewarded. (wich is a selfish idea in and of itself) (i.e. I am doing this so I get something out of it) In my views I can actually have a clear consious about choosing a helping loving path because I do not believe my actions will detirmine where I go when I die. Therefore I have free will and you do not. You make your choices based on the fear of not wanting to go to hell for eternity, I make my choices because I feel good about them. And if I am wrong… You ARE right… I’m sure there is room in your heaven for me, and if not, it is no place I want to be anyways.

That is the major problem I have with gods in general who test us or the theory that they test us. If people would just follow what they feel to be right, instead of what someone else tells them is right, we would be better off in the long run. When people really and I mean really believe that thier actions here will determine how they spend the rest of existance, they will literally do anything to achieve that outcome. Even if it means blowing up a school or burning down a village, or any number of “bad” things that have been done in the name of god.

I know there are some problems with some of the things I have just said… and I could probably write half of your response, but i’m too tired to go back and change anything now. :slight_smile:

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Vegita,
Your idea of religion is more of a wish. As has been said there is not evidence or proof to back up your beliefs. It is a way of believing that leaves no consequences for your wrong actions, and allows you to believe any of the good that you do is yours. What I keep hearing is I I I , you must let go of the idea that you or your own God. This self pride is what leads to everyman?s downfall. God does not tempt us, temptation is from the devil. He tempts us to ask many of the same questions that you are asking, in other words questioning God.

Hope you have a great X-mas.