Melding Evolution and Creationism

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
(Gen2:7)Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (emphasis mine)
If this were true, we would be made out of the same elements as the Earth. The most common elements on the outermost layers of Earth are oxygen, silicon, magnesium and iron. Oxygen is the only one that’s right. The rest of our chemicals are far more common in space than on Earth. The Bible does’t say dust from space, it says dust from the ground, which we are not.

(Gen 4:22)Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron

Using the Bible to calculate how long Tubal-cain lived after Adam, we get seven generations, approximately 1020 years after creation. This would put the beginning of the Iron Age at 4980 years ago, instead of 3500 years at the earliest. So we have 1500 years of missing iron work.
[/quote]

We don’t have many artifacts that date much before 3k years old. So it is possible it exist we just have not found it. Archealogy is a great thing but it can never prove the Bible it can only try to find out what best fits the picture of evidence it has.

well lets assume it wasn’t at our current sea level. Lets assume it was taller, but with the continents still being intact before the flood. The sea level could also have been different. Insert flood, contintental drift, shift in land mass, and water level fluctuation. All could affect it. Did it happen that way? Who knows. I have done a study on the amount of growth mount everst has had over that last few millenia. It is certainly as plausible as yours.

[quote]haney wrote:

Haney,

regarding ‘too much’ helium in rocks.

from http://gondwanaresearch.com/ra

"What about Humphreys excess helium arguments

The premise of the RATE work is this:

“Acquisition of data on which to base a claim that the amount of helium in rocks today should not be so high if it was produced by nuclear decay over millions of years.? If helium was produced within the most recent thousands of years, it would be expected to still remain in the rocks as observed”

Mumbo-jumbo.? The claim here appears to be that there is too much helium in the rocks today.? The RATE Group does not provide an explanation of what is too much.? It states rather matter-of-factly that it is too high.? The rate of helium diffusion from minerals is not a simple linear process1,5,6. ? Once again, the RATE Group begins with a false premise that it intends to prove by misinterpretation of the data and an incomplete reading of the literature.? Remember: Misinterpreting Science is not the same thing as disproving science.? Humphreys takes issue with me on this at http://www.answersingenesis.or

?? Humphreys claims that helium is not retained for any great time in zircons.? He proposes that zircons close and 'then re-open" to helium diffusion shortly after their closure temperature.?? Dodson describes the concept of closure temperature as follows:

?? " It is assumed that, while the system is near to the temperature of crystallization, the daughter nuclide diffuses out as fast as it is produced by radioactive decay.? As the system cools, it enters a transitional temperature within which some of the daughter product accumulates in the mineral and some is lost.? Eventually, at temperatures near ambient, the losses are negligible, and the daughter product accumulates without any loss whatsoever…Closure temperature can be given a precise definition namely the temperature of the system at the time given by its apparent age"

?Humphreys work describes a number Q which he states is the ‘re-opening’.? This re-opening is defined as marking a point where helium loss is balanced by helium production resulting in a steady state level of helium within the zircon.? Unfortunately, Humphreys does not provide the critical analysis for defining what Q really is (he refers to equation 16, but did not bother to post it).? Therefore, it is difficult to analyze exactly what Humphreys is talking about without providing the relevant equations.?? There certainly is a point in the cooling history of zircons where loss=gain, and this may even occur at temperatures below the ‘closure temperature’, but Humphreys assertion that the zircons would maintain this steady-state situation is not grounded in good science.?

[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Haney ?
You will note in my first post in this discussion, I stated I attended an anglican christian private school. From my subsequesnt education there, I?ve rejected as fallacy the Literal bible.
I referenced the Shroud: I stated ?I don?t understand your insistance that one needs to find an explaination for every story in this book. With enough research, time and technology, then I think every story in the bible will end up with a plausable explanation. The turin shroud is a top example.

The resurection is a story in the bible, and the shroud has been used as evidence of the truth of this story. Otherwise, why would it be called a ?Holy Relic? and owned by the Holy See?
The research I?ve linked in a previous post shows the impossibility of using the shroud as eveidence of the resurection, considering it?s 1300yrs too old. Thus I state the resurection has one less piece of credible evidence, religatting it to more story/myth than truth.
[/quote]

I don’t use the shroud as proof. I use the four eye witness testimonies, what they had to say, how they lived their life before and after the resurrection. the logical conclusion they were not lying. as my proof.

No it is dismissed because it lacks apostolic authority. The four gospels we have were widely accepted as how it was by 115 ce. Since you are such an avid scholar you would also be aware that Matthew was most likely the first gospel written. It was written in Hebrew, We don’t have any surviving copies, but the ear marks of being transalted from a different language are there.

Where are these scholars? I have never seen any true historian give it an earlier dating.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/thomasgospel.html

“Our focus will be upon common arguments used to date GThom earlier than is usually assumed, pursuing arguments presented in a variety of relevant sources with a “pro-GThom” stance. Let it be understood, though, that the primary arguments are NOT for the ENTIRETY of GThom, especially GThom in its present form, being dated early - rather, it is usually argued that only PARTS of GThom may be traced back to an early date.”

I would be willing to accept it except it goes against four other eye witness accounts. It also would not match anything that Paul, or any of the other apostles wrote. It would represent a view that came about at a much later date.

[quote]
In answer to your question ? my take on Christ risen ? just a story. A good one, it certainly attracts people.

Well if you wanted to not believe in God and many scientist do. Then you would look to prove Evolution true.

Which would fit with what I said about there being presupposition on both sides.

Well by all means shoot it down. I am looking for the truth. Just because the guy is wrong in one part does not mean all of it is wrong, neither is that the only source I look to. I find many of their articles in laymans terms. Which is why I post them. So those who are not totally in the know about these things can understand.

Oh and here is a reply to the helium article that you site as proof that things have changed.

Helium in the Earth?s Atmosphere
by David Malcolm

Synopsis
Creationists have used the argument that the amount of helium in the earth?s atmosphere indicates a young earth. It was first brought to the public?s attention by Nobel Prize nominee Melvin A. Cook in 1957, when an article was printed in Nature.1 The rate at which helium is entering the atmosphere from radioactive decay is known fairly well; as is the rate at which helium is presently escaping from the atmosphere into interplanetary space.

However, the Australian Skeptics, in their publication Creationism, an Australian Perspective, have printed an article by Ken Smith, suggesting that creationists have not done their homework properly, and are in fact seriously in error with this conclusion.2 This paper is submitted with the aim of correcting the false claims put forward in the Skeptics? publication. Much of Ken Smith?s article is highly misleading if not simply wrong as we will here attempt to show.

We will explain how the rate of loss of helium from the atmosphere has been obtained. Since the rate of loss is less than the rate at which helium is entering the atmosphere, the evidence does indicate a young age for the earth (of the order of two million years), a result which is well known amongst atmospheric scientists.

Jeans Escape
To understand the mechanism by which helium is known to be escaping from the atmosphere, we can do no better than quote from the reference Walker.3 In fact we will be relying heavily on this source, as he presents a full and fair treatment of the matter.

Ken Smith accuses creationists of relying on obsolete work done before the International Geophysical Year of 1957?58. However, Walker?s book was written in 1977, so both he and almost all his authorities come after 1958.

Figure 1. Diagram of atmosphere.

With reference to figure 1, the mechanism of Jeans escape is as follows:

?Let us assume that there is a level in the atmosphere, called the critical level or exobase, above which collisions between molecules are so infrequent as to be negligible and below which collisions are sufficiently frequent to maintain a completely isotropic and random distribution of molecular velocities. At or below the exobase, therefore, the velocity distribution of the molecules of a given atmospheric constituent is the Maxwellian distribution. Since collisions are negligible above the exobase, the molecules in this region, called the exosphere, move along ballistic trajectories under the action of the earth?s gravitational field. Some of the upward-moving molecules have velocities sufficiently great to carry them on hyperbolic trajectories away from the earth, into space.?4

The escape velocity can be found from a known formula.5 At the planetary surface the escape velocity is given by ?

where G is the universal gravitational constant; and r and M are respectively the radius and mass of the planet.

At an altitude Z, the escape velocity6 will be ?

Height Z
(km) Escape Speed
(km/sec)
0
100
200
300
400
500 11.18
11.09
11.01
10.93
10.84
10.75
Table 1. Escape speed is dependent on altitude
Escape velocity figures for the earth are tabulated in table 1, for different altitudes.
Deciding on the height of the exobase is rather difficult because there is actually a transition region. But

?Let us take a value for the exospheric temperature T=1500 K, which is higher than average, and let us place the exobase at a height of 500km.?7

So particles need to be moving at 10.75 kilometers per second to escape from the earth?s gravitational influence. And this is independent of the mass of the particles.

Maxwell Distribution
As a next step we need to find the distribution of molecular velocities, so that we can find how many molecules can be expected to be traveling faster than the escape velocity. This is given by the Maxwell distribution8, the equation for which is:-

Results are shown for this function in figure 2. We have shown distribution curves for atomic hydrogen, atomic oxygen, and helium at 1500 K.

Figure 2. Curve showing relative probability of molecules having any given speed.

The most probable speed9 is given by the equation:

Although the formula for the Maxwell distribution looks complicated, it will be seen that the only variable in it is the square of the most probable speed. In other words, given a most probable speed, the probability curve is completely defined. And the area under the curve is unity. This means that if two distributions are displayed, and the most probable speed for B is twice that for A, then B will have exactly twice the spread of A, and half the height.

Now the plot shown in the skeptics? article, which is shown as figure 3, is misleading in several ways. Most importantly, no units are shown on the x axis. (It is reasonable for there to be no y axis units). Clearly units should be shown for the plot to have any meaning, and so that we can compare against the known escape velocity. A curve is shown dashed, which purports to be at a somewhat higher temperature, but there is no indication of how much higher. If the most probable speed is doubled for the higher temperature, as seems to be the case, then it must be at four times the absolute temperature, i.e. If the solid curve represents 1500 K, then the dashed curve is for 6000 K.

Figure 3. Supposed Maxwell distribution given in Skeptic?s publication.

It is also misleading to group hydrogen and helium as being similar, and in a contrasting class to oxygen and nitrogen. In fact, helium is placed as a geometric mean in between hydrogen and oxygen, in the sense that the most probable speed for helium is twice that for oxygen, and half that for hydrogen, as shown in table 2. (This is because the square roots of their molecular weights are in the ratio of 1:2:4).

Table 2 also shows the molecular density of the most common gases at the exobase.10

Molecule Density
(m?3) Molecular
Weight (m) vmp
at 1500 K
Atomic Hydrogen (H) 8 x 1010 1 5 km/sec
Helium (He) 2.5 x 1012 4 2.5 km/sec
Atomic Oxygen (O) 2.7 x 1013 16 1.25 km/sec
Atomic Nitrogen (N) 8 x 1011
Nitrogen (N2) 4.4 x 1011
Oxygen (O2) 8 x 109
Argon (Ar) 1 x 107
Table 2. Molecular densities and most probable speeds at the exobase.
Some Qualifications
It will probably be clear at this point that a number of assumptions have been made. This includes the unrealistic assumption that there is a sharp change at the exobase. Walker evaluates this and other approximations: To Walker ?

?The arbitrary nature of the definition of the exobase is not a matter of concern (Jeans, 1925; Chamberlain 1963).?11

But Fahr and Shizgal caution that
?The rigorous kinetic theory treatment of the transition region from collision-dominated to collisionless flow remains an outstanding objective.?12

?Chamberlain (1963) has shown that the neglect of collisions occurring above the exobase does not lead to an overestimate of the escape flux.?13

There is also apparently no problem in considering each type of gas molecule independently. That is, as if it was present alone.14

?A slight overestimate does result from the assumption that the Maxwellian distribution is fully populated in the region from which escape occurs. ? The effect has been extensively studied (Hays and Liu, 1965; Chamberlain and Campbell, 1967; Chamberlain, 1969; Brinkmann, 1970, 1971; Chamberlain and Smith, 1971), and it appears that corrections to the expression for the escape flux derived above are generally smaller than 30%.?15

Vardiman doesn?t quite agree:

?Fahr and Shizgal imply that the rate of actual thermal escape is probably 70-80% of Jeans escape, although some calculations have been made that indicate the actual flux to be as little as 10?20% of the rate of Jeans escape. ? In any case, Jeans escape is likely to be an upper limit to the thermal flux.?16

It should also be noted that the Maxwell speed distribution function alone, does not give the full story, as is implied by Ken Smith?s article. For some gases, diffusion is the limiting factor, rather than Jeans escape:

?Hydrogen, in fact, escapes into space almost as soon as it reaches the level from which escape is possible. The rate of loss of hydrogen is therefore limited to the rate at which hydrogen and its compounds are transported upwards from lower levels.?17

Estimated Helium Loss
To obtain the actual rate of loss of helium, we need to integrate the probability function for all molecules traveling upwards at a speed greater than the escape velocity. This has been done correctly by Walker, and is confirmed by Vardiman.18 The result is clear:

The characteristic time for helium escape at an average exospheric temperature of 1500 K is 60 million years19 or 70 million years20. But the magnitude of the source from the decay of radioactive elements has been estimated by a number of researchers 21 22 23 24 25 as 2 x 106 cm-2 sec-1. By dividing this flux into the column density of helium in the atmosphere (1.1 x 1020 cm-2)we obtain a residence time for helium of 2 million years, much less than the characteristic escape time.

?This result implies that the rate of Jeans escape at 1500 K is much smaller than the crustal source of helium. Since 1500 K is well above the average temperature of the exosphere, there appears to be a problem with the helium budget of the atmosphere.?26

Walker realizes that the influx of helium into the atmosphere vastly outweighs the loss to space by means of Jeans escape. But he is not happy with this result and immediately sets out to suggest various mechanisms that could perhaps account for this obvious problem with orthodox evolutionary science.

Other Loss Mechanisms
?MacDonald (1963, 1964) has evaluated the escape flux averaged over an entire 11-year cycle of solar activity, using satellite data on exospheric temperature. He finds an average escape flux of 6 x 104 cm-2sec?1, a factor of 30 less than the source. It is still possible, nevertheless, that the bulk of escape occurs during infrequent periods of unusually high temperature (Spitzer, 1949; Hunten 1973). Hunten has pointed out that if the temperature were to exceed 2000 K, diffusion would become the limiting process and the escape flux would be equal to the limiting flux, about 108 cm-2sec?1. To provide an average loss rate of 2 x 106 cm?2sec?1, these hot episodes would therefore have to occupy about 2% of the time.?27

Such hot episodes would dispose of the helium, but note that they have not been observed.

In figure 4 we show how the speed distribution for helium varies with temperature (1000?2000 K). Although there doesn?t appear to be a significant increase in the area under the tail of the curve above 10.75 km/s at 2000 K, it is apparently enough to make a difference. However?

?The average global exospheric temperature is 1037 K for average solar flux and magnetically quiet conditions.?28

There is the process of photochemical escape, which seems to be significant on Mars but not on earth.

?An alternative possibility is that there is a loss process for helium in addition to Jeans escape. Mechanisms other than Jeans escape have been proposed for the escape of gases from planetary atmospheres (Cole, 1966; Axford, 1968; Michel, 1971; Sheldon and Kern, 1972; Torr et al., 1974; Liu and Donahue, 1974a,b). Most of these are speculative and of undetermined evolutionary significance.?29

In this section we have referenced 11 papers in technical publications involving 13 different authors, who are trying to explain the ?discrepancy? in the ?helium budget.? Perhaps, they haven?t even considered the possibility that there is no problem with the helium figures because the earth is just not 4.5 billion years old.

Conclusion
It certainly seems that the creationist position is correct, on the basis of the latest observational evidence. As Chamberlain and Hunten admitted30 as recently as 1987, the helium escape problem ?will not go away, and it is unsolved.?

This is a subject area which creationists will need to monitor closely. Quite complex calculations are involved, and data is needed from several disciplines, so there exists the possibility that authors may try to force results to fit their preconceived ideas. Therefore, if you are interested in this subject, it would be worthwhile obtaining the book by Larry Vardiman, which looks at this subject a lot more thoroughly than we have done here.

Acknowledgments
The Maxwell distribution curves were produced using the gnuplot software.

The book by Larry Vardiman was very helpful to me, particularly with his Bibliography of scientists who admit there is a problem.

David Malcolm has a Masters Degree in Engineering and works as a Computer Systems Officer for the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Newcastle, Australia. (in 1994). Return to top

Appendix: Symbols and Constants
Meaning Symbol Value
Avogadro?s number NA 6.022 x 1023 mol-1
Boltzman?s constant k 1.381 x 10-23 JK-1
Earth radius r 6370 km
Earth mass M 5.9742 x 1024 kg
Gravitational constant G 6.672 x 10-11 m3kg-1s-2
Molecular weight m

Temperature T K
Escape velocity ve

Most probable speed vmp

I will ask this shaunw.

How many times are geologist going to change their mind about how that sandstone got deposited??

"That?s also what the geologists thought about the Hawkesbury Sand?stone in 1883.7 However, scien?tists did not always think the sand amassed in a desert. In 1844 Charles Dar?win described the Sydney rocks as forming in a marine environment. How?ever, in 1880 another scientist said they had been partly formed by glaciers. In 1883 yet another scientist said the rocks had partly formed in a lake.
Figure 2 (Sydney, Australia)

So, the various ideas about how the sandstone formed were tossed back and forth like shifting sands. In 1920 a geolo?gist proposed that all the sand accumu?lated in a large lake. Thus, between 1920 and 1960 the lake interpre?tation was taught at the universities and presented to the public as fact.

However, by the 1960s, some geologists questioned how such large sand waves, which point to fast flowing water,8 could form in a lake. Accord?ingly, in 1964 it was proposed that the sand was deposited by a river. Yet the size of the deposits was still a puzzle, so in 1969 it was said that the sand was deposited by tides on a marine barrier in a river delta. But this didn?t make sense either.

Since the late 1970s, geologists have thought that the Hawkesbury Sandstone was deposited in a very wide river. Not only was the river wide, but also very long, extending over 2,000 kilometres north. Rock was eroded from either side of the river, transported thousands of kilometres, sorted into a uniform sand size, and deposited in the Sydney area. But how could normal rainfall sustain a fast-flowing, 250-km-wide river? The latest suggestion is that the river flowed intermittently.9 A huge lake upstream accumu?lated a large volume of water, which periodically burst through its ice dam. Massive flood waves, 20 metres high and 250 km wide roared down?stream at enormous speed, delivering tonnes of sand into the Sydney area. "

The article I may have post might be wrong, but It appears He isn’t the only one…

Could it be we still just are not for sure?

See what I mean by presupposition

“Ironically, NASA scientists accept that there have been ?catastrophic floods? on Mars7 that carved out canyons8 although no liquid water is present today. But they deny that a global flood happened on earth, where there is enough water to cover the whole planet to a depth of 1.7 miles (2.7 km) if it were completely uniform, and even now covers 71 percent of the earth?s surface!”

Haney,
You seem to be getting upset with me. Relax.

  1. I haven’t lied about your posts. I think lothario may have mis-quoted you once, but it wasn’t me.
  2. Show me where I don’t know what I’m talking about. Everything I’ve posted is accepted science.

Maxwell’s equations were used, but I think the other dude applied them to the helium dating method. Maybe I’m wrong, show me Maxwell first did this.

3)pay attention, you mentioned the word panteon to lothario not me.

[quote]beaudry wrote:
Haney,

Carbon-14 dating is accurate to about 40-50k years. Many of the other radiometric dating techniques are precise to 1% and are accurate to billions of years. These radiometric techniques don’t date the carbon, but date the radioactive elements. [/quote]

Read the link I posted it dealt with all of the dating problems, not just carbon. Which include radioactive.

no one has addressed the two paragraphs I posted on the findings of human artifacts, that were recent either.

I will state this again. I am only looking for the truth, if science is correct great, It doesn’t disprove my faith. If it is wrong great, it doesn’t prove my faith.

It just means what I have been saying we don’t know, and there are too many problems with current science to say it is right.

[quote]beaudry wrote:
Haney,
You seem to be getting upset with me. Relax.

  1. I haven’t lied about your posts. I think lothario may have mis-quoted you once, but it wasn’t me.
  2. Show me where I don’t know what I’m talking about. Everything I’ve posted is accepted science.

Maxwell’s equations were used, but I think the other dude applied them to the helium dating method. Maybe I’m wrong, show me Maxwell first did this.

3)pay attention, you mentioned the word panteon to lothario not me.

[/quote]

actually I was responding to lothario. It should of had his added text in the post.

I am not upset with anyone. I enjoy having these debates with open people. I don’t know everything, and I am where I am because of things I have learned. Sometimes what we think we know truth, and we don’t. I am just trying to find truth. You have brought some interesting things to the discussion, and it has required me dig down and come up with some answers.

Maxwell Distribution have been applied by many to all forms of gas. just do a search on google and you will see them.

for a better search just put this one in.
Maxwell Distribution Helium

I would post them but there are too many to bother with it. I am sure you would agree.

Maxwell Distribution

You are right you have not done any of the things lothario has done.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
The most common elements on the outermost layers of Earth are oxygen, silicon, magnesium and iron. Oxygen is the only one that’s right.

So nitrogen and carbon can’t be found in the ground? What exactly in our bodies can not be found in dirt?[/quote]

I didn’t say they can’t be found in the ground, it’s just that they’re relatively rare. Silicon, magnesium and iron compose less than 1% of the elements in our bodies. If we were made from earth, I would expect the ratios of the elements to be the same as our source material. This is the way it worked in chemistry class, why would we be any different?

[quote](Gen 4:22)Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron

Using the Bible to calculate how long Tubal-cain lived after Adam, we get seven generations, approximately 1020 years after creation. This would put the beginning of the Iron Age at 4980 years ago, instead of 3500 years at the earliest. So we have 1500 years of missing iron work.

Except for the fact that many believed that life expectancy was longer during this period. Noah, I believe, was well over 100 years old when he was still working on the Arc.[/quote]

Well, Noah was over 600 when he began work on the Ark. But that’s beside the point. I used the stated lifespans and birth years in Genesis 5. The chronology I used came directly from the King James Version.

haney: Maybe we’ll find some, but as for now, ask almost any anthropologist they will say that’s way too early for iron tools.

[quote]Mt. Everest was defintely below the sea at some time. Assuming it was at sea level during the Flood, to get all the sea creatures buried to make fossils, it have to have grown 6.5 feet a year to get as tall as it is today. I wonder why no one noticed…

How do you know at what level Everest was during the flood?[/quote]

I don’t, like I said, I was assuming. It had be low enough for the flood waters to cover it to a depth of 15 cubits. I picked sea level just because it’s the start point for measurements of elevation.

haney: By the current measurements of its growth, it would take 2210253 years to rise, at mimimum.

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:

[quote]Toshindo

haney: Maybe we’ll find some, but as for now, ask almost any anthropologist they will say that’s way too early for iron tools.

[/quote]

Agreed. Most would say it is too early. I will not dispute that. I would simply say at this point we don’t know, and it does pose a problem. I have not looked for any answers on it, but I will see what I can find.

Well consider the following article which says basically the same thing that I said. with post flood changes the globe would be ver different.

It is purely speculation of course, but possible none the less.

toshindo:

Here is some food for thought.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030721.htm

http://www.creationism.org/vonfange/vonFangeSpadingChap01.htm

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:

I didn’t say they can’t be found in the ground, it’s just that they’re relatively rare. Silicon, magnesium and iron compose less than 1% of the elements in our bodies. If we were made from earth, I would expect the ratios of the elements to be the same as our source material. This is the way it worked in chemistry class, why would we be any different?
[/quote]

Possibly because those ratios were different a few million years ago? Beyond that, why think of it as simple as someone reaching down and grabbing a handfull of dirt? Through this entire thread has been the concept that the way many think of God probably isn’t even close. If you were going to use the elements available on this planet to create anything, would you simply bend down and grab a handfull or would you put more thought into how you wanted it formed? Wouldn’t you manipulate ratios a little until your creation was how you wanted it? Why would you think God would be dumber than you in that aspect?

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:

Well, Noah was over 600 when he began work on the Ark. But that’s beside the point. I used the stated lifespans and birth years in Genesis 5. The chronology I used came directly from the King James Version.
[/quote]

How can you use the years in Genesis 5 for how long it was until the days of Tubal-Cain when his life span was mentioned in Genesis 4?

Genesis 4:21-22
21: His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.
22: Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubal-cain was Na’amah.

Lothario,
You said, “I do not degrade the bible. I degrade those who think it is absolute truth. Because it isn’t.”

I do not degrade evolution, I question those who think it is absolute truth. Because it isn’t.

There is no need to degrade anyone.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:

Well, Noah was over 600 when he began work on the Ark. But that’s beside the point. I used the stated lifespans and birth years in Genesis 5. The chronology I used came directly from the King James Version.

How can you use the years in Genesis 5 for how long it was until the days of Tubal-Cain when his life span was mentioned in Genesis 4?

Genesis 4:21-22
21: His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.
22: Zillah bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubal-cain was Na’amah. [/quote]

Because chapter 5 lists the years of Lamech (Tubal-cain’s father) and his fathers before him. Chapter 4 doesn’t list any lifespans.

[quote]
Possibly because those ratios were different a few million years ago? [/quote]

So you don’t believe the world was created in six days? We also have no reson to beleive that the ratios were that different.

Well, the “inerrant word of God” says that He formed form the dust of the earth, not that He messed around with the dust until it suited Him. Besides, it would make more sense for God to just reach up into the heavens and grab the proper elements already there, instead of taking all the time to sort them out of the earth. Here’s the average composition of igneous rocks:

Silica 59.0 %
Alumina 15.3 %
Iron oxide 7.0 %
Calcium oxide 5.0 %
Sodium oxide 3.8 %
Magnesium oxide 3.5 %
Potassium oxide 3.1 %
Titanium oxide 1.0 %
Water 1.0 %
Various 1.1 %

Very little hydrogen, no carbon or nitrogen.

haney: The East Indian redwood, or sapanwood (Caesalpinia sappan), was called “bresel wood” when it was first imported to Europe in the Middle Ages; Portuguese explorers used this name for a similar South American tree (C. echinata), from which the name Brazil for its native country purportedly derives.

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
So you don’t believe the world was created in six days? We also have no reson to beleive that the ratios were that different.
[/quote]

We know for a fact that the Earth was meshed into one large land mass but it is impossible for there to be a difference in the ratios of elements found in common dirt? The bible had to go into a huge scientific explanation of why he chose more carbon than nitrogen just so you could entertain the possibility that God had the ability to pull what he wanted to pull from dirt?

I have already explained my understanding of those “six days” and I do not believe that it is a literal 24 hour day. I think it is a concept of time but I don’t believe that our concept of a week was used at this point. I think this is the way it was perceived by the messenger. Whether I am right or not is something neither I nor you can prove. That is what all of those posts above this one have been about. You missed them? The Tower of Babble is also not believed to have been a tower. I think some items are taken too literally at the expense of understanding the intention of the passage.

The Bible is not a science book although, as you pointed out, it does go into great detail in many aspects like the generations of lives (although your point misses the concept that our understanding of the bronze age is based on archeological findings which does open the possibility of that scientific concept being off). You will not get blue prints for why and how God chose what he did from the dust of the Earth. You will simply get the information that he created us from the Earth. The millions of humans before you and I wouldn’t have been able to comprehend the use of a centrifuge or understand what a “carbon molecule” was so what sense would it have made to alienate the majority of the people that have lived and died on this planet by making it that complicated? My understanding is that God is far beyond our level of intellect so I don’t even understand you acting as if he couldn’t choose what he wanted from the earth while leaving what he didn’t. Why attempt to mentally limit what he can do? I was under the impression that there were no limits.

Haney you?ve picked up an interesting point: - how old is geology as a science? A more pertinant question is ? when did the sciences move away from describing findings in line with church dogma?
You said ?So, the various ideas about how the sandstone formed were tossed back and forth like shifting sands ?.. Thus, between 1920 and 1960 the lake interpre?tation was taught at the universities and presented to the public as fact?
How often do you think physists have changed their views and ?laws? in the last 200 yrs?
Indeed, Continental drift was first postulated in 1912! It wasn?t until the 60?s that Drift theory (or Plate Techtonics) was accepted. Remember we had a few wars, depressions etc which sort of limits funding for scientific research (unless theres a possibility of making a weapon from it ? then we throw bunches on $$ at it)

And the advancement in geology has been likened to a Copernican revolution.

From Plate tectonics
?Continental drift was first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener who noticed the similarity in shape of the coasts of Africa and South America. His ideas were not taken seriously by geologists who pointed out that there was no mechanism for continental drift.?

We?ve been over this: like all sciences, geology takes a theory, and tests this theory against current known facts. If new facts (which come about from advancement in technology, etc) refute the current theory, a new theory is postulated to fit the current facts.
Thus science is a malleable tool. And this is it?s strength.
Unlike a religion which rests on faith, science must rely on fact. And if the facts change, the science must accommodate.
It?s interesting to note that religions stay fast to their tennets ? despite emerging new facts.
Ever heard the Aesop fable about the malleable bending reed and the strong steadfast oak?

[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Haney you?ve picked up an interesting point: - how old is geology as a science? A more pertinant question is ? when did the sciences move away from describing findings in line with church dogma?
You said ?So, the various ideas about how the sandstone formed were tossed back and forth like shifting sands ?.. Thus, between 1920 and 1960 the lake interpre?tation was taught at the universities and presented to the public as fact?
How often do you think physists have changed their views and ?laws? in the last 200 yrs?
Indeed, Continental drift was first postulated in 1912! It wasn?t until the 60?s that Drift theory (or Plate Techtonics) was accepted. Remember we had a few wars, depressions etc which sort of limits funding for scientific research (unless theres a possibility of making a weapon from it ? then we throw bunches on $$ at it)

And the advancement in geology has been likened to a Copernican revolution.

From Plate tectonics
?Continental drift was first proposed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener who noticed the similarity in shape of the coasts of Africa and South America. His ideas were not taken seriously by geologists who pointed out that there was no mechanism for continental drift.?

We?ve been over this: like all sciences, geology takes a theory, and tests this theory against current known facts. If new facts (which come about from advancement in technology, etc) refute the current theory, a new theory is postulated to fit the current facts.
Thus science is a malleable tool. And this is it?s strength.
Unlike a religion which rests on faith, science must rely on fact. And if the facts change, the science must accommodate.
It?s interesting to note that religions stay fast to their tennets ? despite emerging new facts.
Ever heard the Aesop fable about the malleable bending reed and the strong steadfast oak?
[/quote]

That is my whole point about this. We hear science is right. we know for sure that these things happened this way, and then twenty years later they say they are wrong, and now they know for sure how it is! So why is this a problem that I doubt the scientific answers thus far? The evidence has not even come to the point of being beyond a reasonible doubt. It still has doubt. If it didn’t then the story would stay the same. Scientist take the data and interpret the way they think it is, not neccessarily the way it is. That is the problem I have been stating all along. It is great to consider it that way, and I don’t discourage free thought. I discourage free thought based on interpretation of unproved data being forced as the sole answer!

I fully admit I may be wrong. I also admit I have good reasons to believe what I believe based off of strong evidence. It still could be wrong though.

I also pointed out that we have never had any proof of water being on mars yet it is predicted that there was water, but we cannot even consider the idea of a global flood.

If the science is always changing it menas that the proof/evidence is still not final. Why would I trust something that is constantly changing.

If this were a trial would you trust the witness who always says the same thing or would you trust the one that keeps changing his story?

I believe at some point science will have a very clear answer on many things I do however doubt the answers that it offers now.

I trust my faith not because of some flat dogma, but because of the unbelievable odds by which the first church survived. The chance of the old testiment prophecy that fit the with the gospel record of Christ is an amazing thing in its self. You are an inteligent person, and I believe you have done research on many things. I too have sought answers. The faith I first had was based on faith alone. The faith I now have is not only based on faith, but built on answers that I have found.

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:

haney: The East Indian redwood, or sapanwood (Caesalpinia sappan), was called “bresel wood” when it was first imported to Europe in the Middle Ages; Portuguese explorers used this name for a similar South American tree (C. echinata), from which the name Brazil for its native country purportedly derives.
[/quote]

I never said it had merit. I just thought it was interesting. I will have to do some real research on it. I will be honest with you preflood era may never turn anything up. Doesn’t mena it is not wrong or right. just means we may have something unanswered.

It should also be pointed out that it could be a copyist error that would have been lost in a recopy.