Medical Field/Drugs and Death

Off Topic
181

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

I’m tired of some people bashing government as if it’s ALL bad.

Damn right I want some regulation - especially in the food industry.
[/quote]

No, not all government is bad, roads, cops, teachers and temporary assitance are good.

I will say it again:

I just feel it is more impowering to everyone to educate people on how they may or may not be manipulated, than continue to enable bad choices by just regulating away what we feel is bad.

One option gives people power in the way of information. The other wipes their ass and allows them to continue blindly dependant upon the collective.

Your idea isn’t actually helping anyone. You can lead a man to water and explain why he needs to drink, or you can strap him down, pour the water in his mouth and expect to have to show him how to piss later too.

Your call.[/quote]

That can be turned around just as easily.

Watch several hours of TV per night and you’;ll see what I mean.

Information is only as good as the platform it sits on allows. There’s no platform for it on primetime. It’s ALL pharm/drug commercials, and crap food commercials. The public isn’t aware of much else in this instance. Why? Because there’s no profit in educating the public that a good diet and exercise could be the cure to what ails them.

Regulate to level the field. Remove the items that misinform the public that there’s only ONE way to feel better… “ask your doctor.”

[/quote]

This is where the people not being hard wired to survive comes into play. If someone can’t or won’t log into the internet or pick up a book to put 2 ounces of work into fixing themselves for themselves, they deserve all the commericals and drugs they can get stuffed down their mouth.

Does it cost me more in health insurance? Sure. But it keeps medical research funded and gives people jobs. Both the people making the commercial, airing it, and the company making the pill. I look at it like me tipping more at a meal out.

If someone wants to be lazy enough to ignore the infomation that is right in front of their face, here in 2012, and focus on shitty primetime TV, well… They can lie in their bed.

Doctors deserve more money than they make because they have to deal with these assholes and keep them alive.

182

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Information is only as good as the platform it sits on allows. There’s no platform for it on primetime. It’s ALL pharm/drug commercials, and crap food commercials. The public isn’t aware of much else in this instance. Why? Because there’s no profit in educating the public that a good diet and exercise could be the cure to what ails them.

Regulate to level the field. Remove the items that misinform the public that there’s only ONE way to feel better… “ask your doctor.”[/quote]

The other route is to educate the doctors better with respect to some of these issues. Most med schools don’t even cover the topic of nutrition (“that’s what nutritionists are for” – direct quote from my pediatrician girlfriend, esp in the hospital setting). Most doctors really only know the typical regurgitated “diet and exercise” and “do more cardio to lose weight” knowledge. They’re about as ignorant on the subjects of nutrition and exercise as most people when they join these forums.

I’m talking about the MD degree. I believe DO’s are educated a bit better in that regard.

If you “ask your doctor” and your doctor says “actually, you’d be better off doing this instead”, we’d be a lot further along.[/quote]

Waiting for someone in the medical field to say you’re stupid for thinking this way :wink:

I asked a cardiologist I train his thoughts on it, and essentially he doesn’t think they should get much training on it. That’s better suited for dieticians and the like because if he talked about nutrition then it would take away time from what he really needs to do, which are surgeries (that partly makes sense)… he also then said direct quote “if we changed their eating habits I’d be out of a job”. to put that in context, he was making that statement towards the financial side of things not the helping people side of things.

183

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

184

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

That can be turned around just as easily.

Watch several hours of TV per night and you’;ll see what I mean.

[/quote]

The differnce here is I want people to turn the TV off and think.

You want to TV to continue to think for people.

185

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

[/quote]

Regulation can make doctors more educated on the subject though. And that might be the right kind of regulation.

Either make it mandatory material when passing your Step2/Step3 exams, or even mandatory to have x-number-of-hours covering the subjects in med school.

The doctors are really the gatekeepers here. Even if the patients are idiots, the doctors can increase the barrier to taking the “prescribe a pill” route.

186

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

I’m tired of some people bashing government as if it’s ALL bad.

Damn right I want some regulation - especially in the food industry.
[/quote]

No, not all government is bad, roads, cops, teachers and temporary assitance are good.

I will say it again:

I just feel it is more impowering to everyone to educate people on how they may or may not be manipulated, than continue to enable bad choices by just regulating away what we feel is bad.

One option gives people power in the way of information. The other wipes their ass and allows them to continue blindly dependant upon the collective.

Your idea isn’t actually helping anyone. You can lead a man to water and explain why he needs to drink, or you can strap him down, pour the water in his mouth and expect to have to show him how to piss later too.

Your call.[/quote]

That can be turned around just as easily.

Watch several hours of TV per night and you’;ll see what I mean.

Information is only as good as the platform it sits on allows. There’s no platform for it on primetime. It’s ALL pharm/drug commercials, and crap food commercials. The public isn’t aware of much else in this instance. Why? Because there’s no profit in educating the public that a good diet and exercise could be the cure to what ails them.

Regulate to level the field. Remove the items that misinform the public that there’s only ONE way to feel better… “ask your doctor.”

[/quote]

This is where the people not being hard wired to survive comes into play. If someone can’t or won’t log into the internet or pick up a book to put 2 ounces of work into fixing themselves for themselves, they deserve all the commericals and drugs they can get stuffed down their mouth.

Does it cost me more in health insurance? Sure. But it keeps medical research funded and gives people jobs. Both the people making the commercial, airing it, and the company making the pill. I look at it like me tipping more at a meal out.

If someone wants to be lazy enough to ignore the infomation that is right in front of their face, here in 2012, and focus on shitty primetime TV, well… They can lie in their bed.

Doctors deserve more money than they make because they have to deal with these assholes and keep them alive.

[/quote]

You make a valid point here. I will however (of course right) say this, it’s almost too much info for people these days. And a lot of it is contradictory.

Take for example the China Study, do you know how many people have blindly followed that piece of work? And it’s not like it doesn’t sound credible when you look at it. Hell, a fellow trainer (who is rather well known in the fitness industry and has had a book published) read it and was seriously considering becoming vegan.

There are so many myths out there that just keep getting repeated that really do confuse people, so either they say A. fuck it I give up or B. this sounds right, I’ll do this

just another perspective

187

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

[/quote]

Regulation can make doctors more educated on the subject though. And that might be the right kind of regulation.

Either make it mandatory material when passing your Step2/Step3 exams, or even mandatory to have x-number-of-hours covering the subjects in med school.

The doctors are really the gatekeepers here. Even if the patients are idiots, the doctors can increase the barrier to taking the “prescribe a pill” route.[/quote]

The downside here though is what do you think will be taught in med school in relation to nutrition? eat Grains, low-fat, limit salt, limit cholesterol, etc

188

any pro-Pharma/medical system care to comment? posted a while back, figured it may have gotten lost in the heat of discussion

189

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Regulation can make doctors more educated on the subject though. And that might be the right kind of regulation.

Either make it mandatory material when passing your Step2/Step3 exams, or even mandatory to have x-number-of-hours covering the subjects in med school.

The doctors are really the gatekeepers here. Even if the patients are idiots, the doctors can increase the barrier to taking the “prescribe a pill” route.[/quote]

The downside here though is what do you think will be taught in med school in relation to nutrition? eat Grains, low-fat, limit salt, limit cholesterol, etc
[/quote]

Yeah, I know. But I could argue that’s still a better option than “keep doing what you’re doing and just take this pill”.

And in some cases, it might point out to people (who are smart, but just never considered it) that they seriously need to work on their diet. And then they go off and do their own research.

I think part of the issue is that some people are just never informed that their diet is a component to their problem. But I could be wrong.

190

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Regulation can make doctors more educated on the subject though. And that might be the right kind of regulation.

Either make it mandatory material when passing your Step2/Step3 exams, or even mandatory to have x-number-of-hours covering the subjects in med school.

The doctors are really the gatekeepers here. Even if the patients are idiots, the doctors can increase the barrier to taking the “prescribe a pill” route.[/quote]

The downside here though is what do you think will be taught in med school in relation to nutrition? eat Grains, low-fat, limit salt, limit cholesterol, etc
[/quote]

Yeah, I know. But I could argue that’s still a better option than “keep doing what you’re doing and just take this pill”.

And in some cases, it might point out to people (who are smart, but just never considered it) that they seriously need to work on their diet. And then they go off and do their own research.

I think part of the issue is that some people are just never informed that their diet is a component to their problem. But I could be wrong.[/quote]

totally agree with you. It’s even more sad when people eat Cheerios because it’s better than eggs right, followed by a whole grain sammich with a fruit flavored yogurt (whole grains and fruit)…

If some don’t think people are completely snowed at to what is healthy they are mistaken. So, in essence some people try to eat a “healthy” diet and don’t think it’s the cause of their disease.

Hell, I had one lady take objection to my stance on saturated fat, saying that her doctor told her eating butter and eggs were what caused her heart attack.

191

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

You make a valid point here. I will however (of course right) say this, it’s almost too much info for people these days. And a lot of it is contradictory.

Take for example the China Study, do you know how many people have blindly followed that piece of work? And it’s not like it doesn’t sound credible when you look at it. Hell, a fellow trainer (who is rather well known in the fitness industry and has had a book published) read it and was seriously considering becoming vegan.

There are so many myths out there that just keep getting repeated that really do confuse people, so either they say A. fuck it I give up or B. this sounds right, I’ll do this

just another perspective
[/quote]

Fair enough. But no one said life was supposed to be easy.

192

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

[/quote]

You really do make some of the best arguments on the forum. At times, it’s a very cut-throat delivery but I for one like that - no beating around the bush.

The idea of regulation, in theory, sounds like the right answer. However, whose decision is it as to whom is the regulator? The regulators have always been people with great money and power. They will continue to make decisions based on making more money and achieving more power, not necessarily what is best for the people.

Regulation does not make people make the correct choices, it simply limits the options they have to choose from. There is no way to fairly regulate things without infringing on somebody’s rights or beliefs. Therefor, all choices must be available and people given the freedom to make their own choices, right or wrong…good or bad.

I won’t interrupt you though since you do fine on your own and much better than myself.

As far as medicine and killing people:

My mother’s cousin didn’t believe in medical treatment of any kind. She spent a few years in agony with cancer and wouldn’t let anybody help her. No medications, no radiation treatments, no nothing. She died last week in a lot of pain.

I’m all for natural remedies and diet and exercise (these are what I use as prevention) but there are times when you need something that works and you need it now. Sometimes it’s just a matter of life or death and cutting gluten out of your diet or eating more eggs or stop eating cereal and bananas are absurd and not appropriate.

193

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Regulation can make doctors more educated on the subject though. And that might be the right kind of regulation.

Either make it mandatory material when passing your Step2/Step3 exams, or even mandatory to have x-number-of-hours covering the subjects in med school.

The doctors are really the gatekeepers here. Even if the patients are idiots, the doctors can increase the barrier to taking the “prescribe a pill” route.[/quote]

The downside here though is what do you think will be taught in med school in relation to nutrition? eat Grains, low-fat, limit salt, limit cholesterol, etc
[/quote]

Yeah, I know. But I could argue that’s still a better option than “keep doing what you’re doing and just take this pill”.

And in some cases, it might point out to people (who are smart, but just never considered it) that they seriously need to work on their diet. And then they go off and do their own research.

I think part of the issue is that some people are just never informed that their diet is a component to their problem. But I could be wrong.[/quote]

totally agree with you. It’s even more sad when people eat Cheerios because it’s better than eggs right, followed by a whole grain sammich with a fruit flavored yogurt (whole grains and fruit)…

If some don’t think people are completely snowed at to what is healthy they are mistaken. So, in essence some people try to eat a “healthy” diet and don’t think it’s the cause of their disease.

Hell, I had one lady take objection to my stance on saturated fat, saying that her doctor told her eating butter and eggs were what caused her heart attack.[/quote]

That idiot Dr Oz continues to spread that bullshit.

194

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

[/quote]

You really do make some of the best arguments on the forum. At times, it’s a very cut-throat delivery but I for one like that - no beating around the bush.

The idea of regulation, in theory, sounds like the right answer. However, whose decision is it as to whom is the regulator? The regulators have always been people with great money and power. They will continue to make decisions based on making more money and achieving more power, not necessarily what is best for the people.

Regulation does not make people make the correct choices, it simply limits the options they have to choose from. There is no way to fairly regulate things without infringing on somebody’s rights or beliefs. Therefor, all choices must be available and people given the freedom to make their own choices, right or wrong…good or bad.

I won’t interrupt you though since you do fine on your own and much better than myself.

As far as medicine and killing people:

My mother’s cousin didn’t believe in medical treatment of any kind. She spent a few years in agony with cancer and wouldn’t let anybody help her. No medications, no radiation treatments, no nothing. She died last week in a lot of pain.

I’m all for natural remedies and diet and exercise (these are what I use as prevention) but there are times when you need something that works and you need it now. Sometimes it’s just a matter of life or death and cutting gluten out of your diet or eating more eggs or stop eating cereal and bananas are absurd and not appropriate.

[/quote]

When you’re dealing with T2 diabetes, you better damn well believe that it is appropriate to cut those foods. CAncer? I would actually say even then it would help, cure it no… But, considering the mechanism that tumors grow cutting carbs would darn well be a good idea.

195

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Sometimes it’s just a matter of life or death and cutting gluten out of your diet or eating more eggs or stop eating cereal and bananas are absurd and not appropriate.

[/quote]

Some well respected vets would argue this as well when it comes to canine cancer :wink:

196

this is fitting… what’s great about my job? I get paid to do this stuff.

197

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
totally agree with you. It’s even more sad when people eat Cheerios because it’s better than eggs right, followed by a whole grain sammich with a fruit flavored yogurt (whole grains and fruit)… [/quote]

But it says it’s healthy right on the box!

Yeah, I know. I love how the studies now show lard is healthier than hydrogenated vegetable oils.

My girlfriend’s still not convinced about the “eggs don’t lead to high cholesterol” thing though. Meanwhile, I cook my eggs in butter. I’ve even made my own butter and cooked them in it.

198

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I think many diseases could be prevented through diet/exercise.
[/quote]

Great. If you feel compelled to tell the world, great.

That is the wonder of free enterprise. You can do what you want. You took the time to read about this stuff.

No amount of regulation is going to make people do that. All regulation does is build the fences cattle are lead through to the slaughter house.

Regulation makes people sheep. Liberation makes people the boarder collie. But a person has to want to achieve in order to.

[/quote]

You really do make some of the best arguments on the forum. At times, it’s a very cut-throat delivery but I for one like that - no beating around the bush.

The idea of regulation, in theory, sounds like the right answer. However, whose decision is it as to whom is the regulator? The regulators have always been people with great money and power. They will continue to make decisions based on making more money and achieving more power, not necessarily what is best for the people.

Regulation does not make people make the correct choices, it simply limits the options they have to choose from. There is no way to fairly regulate things without infringing on somebody’s rights or beliefs. Therefor, all choices must be available and people given the freedom to make their own choices, right or wrong…good or bad.

I won’t interrupt you though since you do fine on your own and much better than myself.

As far as medicine and killing people:

My mother’s cousin didn’t believe in medical treatment of any kind. She spent a few years in agony with cancer and wouldn’t let anybody help her. No medications, no radiation treatments, no nothing. She died last week in a lot of pain.

I’m all for natural remedies and diet and exercise (these are what I use as prevention) but there are times when you need something that works and you need it now. Sometimes it’s just a matter of life or death and cutting gluten out of your diet or eating more eggs or stop eating cereal and bananas are absurd and not appropriate.

[/quote]

When you’re dealing with T2 diabetes, you better damn well believe that it is appropriate to cut those foods. CAncer? I would actually say even then it would help, cure it no… But, considering the mechanism that tumors grow cutting carbs would darn well be a good idea.
[/quote]

She is dead now. She needed immediate medical care and refused it and did choose to go down the path that you’re suggesting. Didn’t do her much good though.

I will edit this in so I don’t sound like a bitch:

There are times when both medications and supplements/diet are appropriate. It is wrong to say that one is important or “the way” and the other is not. It’s a matter of what is appropriate at the time for a specific condition.

199

this is a shorter vid, that I think anyone in here would benefit from, some crazy stuff. That lady talks fast, but I understand this shit will fire you up.

200

I’ve really missed beans’s posts.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
for Kakno regarding statins

"The only large clinical trial looking exclusively at the effect of statins on people over the age of 70 provides clear evidence for avoiding these drugs for use in primary prevention of cardiovascular disease in older people who have not had a previous heart attack, stroke, angina, or other cardiovascular diseases or family history. Five thousand eight hundred and four people aged 70 through 82 were randomized to get a statin or a placebo and were followed for an average of 3.2 years. For the more than 3,200 people in this study without prior cardiovascular disease, the statin had no beneficial effect in preventing subsequent cardiovascular disease. There was, however, a significant 25% increased amount of cancer in those getting the statin, particularly gastrointestinal cancers, the cancer predicted in the animal studies of these drugs (see below). The increase was larger the greater the number of years the drug was being used. No other study analyzing cancer exclusively in large numbers of older patients getting statins has refuted this finding of increased gastrointestinal cancer.5

In summary, people over 70 using statins for primary prevention of cardiovascular disease have no benefit, compared to a placebo, but an increased risk of muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis), liver damage, and, as found in the study described above, an increased risk of cancer. It needs to be emphasized, however, that for those over 70 who have had previous cardiovascular disease, the use of statins may be beneficial."

Hall KM, Luepker RV. Is hypercholesterolemia a risk factor and should it be treated in the elderly?. American Journal of Health Promotion Jul 2000; 14: 347 - 356. [/quote]
God forbid you actually go to pubmed, type in “statins primary prevention”, click over 65 and narrow it down to meta-analyses and systematic review and see for yourself that the newer science does not agree with you.

Are you really 31? It feels like arguing with an 18-year old who thinks he knows everything.

Thanks to pharmaceutical companies being in business all this time despite how we treat them there are fantastic new drugs for various cancers, hematological disorders and RA. I’d much rather finance that with my taxes than jobs that contribute nothing to society.

The Hodge twins say it best: