[quote]PGJ wrote:
What do all these hippie vegans think their Birkenstock sandals are made from?[/quote]
Humanely skinned fur bearing animals.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I’m all for animal rights, but not at the expense of human rights. And all humans have the right to eat.
[/quote]
Hell, I’m not arguing against eating meat, that’s for sure, but at the same time, we don’t actually “need” to have 6 billion people on the planet.
Rights are a funky thing. Of course, we should all eat. But who says the planet simply must support our entire population no matter how many of us their are? Who designated this right? Does the planet know it’s our right?
It’s not a right, it’s human ingenuity, and we are utterly dependent on it. What happens when our numbers exceed the ability to supply food? It’s not a right when there is a shortage, it is then survival of those who can get it…
Until then, enjoy your meal!
[quote]vroom wrote:
tveddy wrote:
I’m all for animal rights, but not at the expense of human rights. And all humans have the right to eat.
Hell, I’m not arguing against eating meat, that’s for sure, but at the same time, we don’t actually “need” to have 6 billion people on the planet.
Rights are a funky thing. Of course, we should all eat. But who says the planet simply must support our entire population no matter how many of us their are? Who designated this right? Does the planet know it’s our right?
It’s not a right, it’s human ingenuity, and we are utterly dependent on it. What happens when our numbers exceed the ability to supply food? It’s not a right when there is a shortage, it is then survival of those who can get it…
Until then, enjoy your meal![/quote]
You do realize that the entire population of the earth could all live in the state of Texas, and have enough room for a 1500 square foot house for each person?
Kinda puts things into perspective.
I mean - we are gonna have to have a shitload more babies before the population out paces our ability to feed them.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
What do all these hippie vegans think their Birkenstock sandals are made from?[/quote]
Birkenstock makes several models of synthetic sandals.
I am ashamed of myself for knowing that.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
PGJ wrote:
What do all these hippie vegans think their Birkenstock sandals are made from?
Humanely skinned fur bearing animals. [/quote]
LOL!
[quote]vroom wrote:
tveddy wrote:
I’m all for animal rights, but not at the expense of human rights. And all humans have the right to eat.
Hell, I’m not arguing against eating meat, that’s for sure, but at the same time, we don’t actually “need” to have 6 billion people on the planet.
Rights are a funky thing. Of course, we should all eat. But who says the planet simply must support our entire population no matter how many of us their are? Who designated this right? Does the planet know it’s our right?
It’s not a right, it’s human ingenuity, and we are utterly dependent on it. What happens when our numbers exceed the ability to supply food? It’s not a right when there is a shortage, it is then survival of those who can get it…
Until then, enjoy your meal![/quote]
I take it you’re not familiar with the term “carrying capacity” Its the population an ecosystem is capable of supporting. When a population excedes the carrying capacity it crashes and self regulates at a lower level. At the point that the earth is no longer able to support the human population, the population will crash and self regulate. If these farming practices that you despise weren’t in place there would be a much smaller carrying capacity and people would excede it, then crash, and then level off at a lower population.
Now, in an animal population that excedes the carrying capacity, not only does the population crash, but it also devestates the ecosystem it is living it. Therefore if this were applied to humans, and these farming practices are stopped, and people excede the carrying capacity, we destroy the environment. While I admit that its presumptuous to apply what happens in smaller animal populations to a large human population, just think about it.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I take it you’re not familiar with the term “carrying capacity” Its the population an ecosystem is capable of supporting. When a population excedes the carrying capacity it crashes and self regulates at a lower level. At the point that the earth is no longer able to support the human population, the population will crash and self regulate.[/quote]
The theoretically carrying capacity and out ability to utilize it are not going to be exactly the same.
What the fuck are you talking about? I’m not arguing about farming practices in the slightest! I happily eat meat, specifically beef, almost every day. Give your assumptions a shake. Speaking of which, I’d better start thawing dinner…
From time to time we wreak havoc on the environment without any need to consider carrying capacity. We’re just special that way.
[quote]While I admit that its presumptuous to apply what happens in smaller animal populations to a large human population, just think about it.
[/quote]
My point is, that we don’t need to have as large a population as we do. We don’t all need to have a lot of children. We don’t need expansion at all costs.
I can tell these are foreign concepts, but a bit of self-control, which I would never actually expect to happen, wouldn’t be a bad thing.
By the way, again, I’m trying to point out that our mindset of “more more more” may be a bit flawed. We aren’t a species that is scrabbling to survive. We are very successful. There are plenty of us around.
Anyway, if you feel so strongly about food being a right, I wish you’d do something to solve the problems that are causing some people to have their “rights” violated.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The theoretically carrying capacity and out ability to utilize it are not going to be exactly the same.[/quote]
This is not exactly right. But I agree that you don’t know exactly when you exceed the carrying capacity until you do.
However, technology, and improved conservation practices have given us a much more accurate estimation of a given soil’s ability to produce. So much so - that barring catastrophic weather, it is no longer that much of a guess.
wrt agriculture - specifically domestic agriculture, the environment has actually benefited from both increased production (efficiency), as well as highly improved conservation practices. The “we” you refer to cannot be in reference to responsible farmers.
“Need” is subjective at best. Who is saying we need a given population level? The earth allows itself to produce up to the level that it can’t produce anymore.
Thinking that you can say how many people we need or don’t need is a baseless opinion.
Once again - you are lumping farmers into a group of people they don’t belong in. You will find no one that is as sensitive to the condition of the land than those that derive their living from it.
Who is demanding more, more, more? That would be the idiot, uneducated, lazy masses. You are implying that the farmer is over producing - he can’t. He is not a price setter - he is a price taker.
If, in one year there is over production, the price the next year will be much lower. Supply and demand dictate the prices a farmer will take for his crops. If they are too low - he will not make any money. It self regulates such that “more more more” is not part of the farmer vocabulary.
[quote]Anyway, if you feel so strongly about food being a right, I wish you’d do something to solve the problems that are causing some people to have their “rights” violated.
[/quote]
I agree that eating is not a right, it is a necessity - number one of the big three in fact.
I should have read the posts more carefully, I thought you were the one that wrote about animals being caged for productivity.
[quote]vroom wrote:
My point is, that we don’t need to have as large a population as we do. We don’t all need to have a lot of children. We don’t need expansion at all costs.
[/quote]
Who are you to decide that?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I agree that eating is not a right, it is a necessity - number one of the big three in fact.
[/quote]
Most of the rest didn’t really apply to me Rainjack. I’m talking about society and things of that nature, not farmers or their practices.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
vroom wrote:
My point is, that we don’t need to have as large a population as we do. We don’t all need to have a lot of children. We don’t need expansion at all costs.
Who are you to decide that?[/quote]
Have you decided the opposite? Who are you to decide that?
I’m not making a decision, I’m commenting on the nature of lifestyle and society. Is that no longer allowed?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Looking down your nose at those that do what you haven’t the stomach for is quite disingenuous, not to mention quite hypocritical when all you have to do is buy the meat of murdered animals in pre-cut, plastic wrapped portions. [/quote]
I’m not looking down at anyone. However, I don’t think someone can kill animals all day, for years, and not be affected by it. In fact, I would worry if they weren’t. As far as having the stomach for something; I’m sure I have more stomach than most for doing something that most won’t: having to possibly put a bullet through someone’s head before he does it to me.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Looking down your nose at those that do what you haven’t the stomach for is quite disingenuous, not to mention quite hypocritical when all you have to do is buy the meat of murdered animals in pre-cut, plastic wrapped portions.
I’m not looking down at anyone. However, I don’t think someone can kill animals all day, for years, and not be affected by it. In fact, I would worry if they weren’t. As far as having the stomach for something; I’m sure I have more stomach than most for doing something that most won’t: having to possibly put a bullet through someone’s head before he does it to me. [/quote]
Ozzy Osborne worked in a slaughterhouse as a teenager, and he turned out OK.
[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
I feel no remorse for animals killed/slaughtered for consumption because their death means life for others. It’s just too bad for them for being lower on the food chain.
[/quote]
Good post.
Me too I do love eating meat! Cats and dogs meat (family farm raised of course!) is awesome! Too bad for doggy for being lower on the food chain than me! No mercy!
I laughed watching the chickens and turkies.
You want me to feel sorry for dumbass animals? Hah.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Dirty Tiger wrote:
PGJ wrote:
What do all these hippie vegans think their Birkenstock sandals are made from?
Birkenstock makes several models of synthetic sandals.
I am ashamed of myself for knowing that.
I s’pect a dirty tiger has eaten his share of ecotourists and spit out the synthetic sandals as utterly distasteful compared to the leather ones made from luscious bovine hides.[/quote]
LOL…in a busy school library…damnit push…now I’m all embarassed