McCain/Obama Debate II: 10/07/08

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

well said therower… i can’t believe anyone still believes the “they hate our way of life” bullshit.

i happen to have had a couple iraqi friends (us army translators) and dated an iranian girl for over a year and got to know most of her friends. they all laughed at this juvenile sentiment. they said most of their friends and family don’t hate the american lifestyle - what little they really know about it - and would like to enjoy such a lifestyle and/or be a part of ours if they could.

pure and simple, they hate israel. and our support of israel.

anyone still playing the company line about the middle east “hating freedom” should actually get to know some of these people before professing so boldly why they dislike the united states.

202

[quote]therover wrote:
rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

Our relationship with Israel is not the reason for their hatred. The should be on their knees thanking us for keeping Israel leashed up and muzzled.

Can you imagine the carnage of the muslims if we let Israel go and take care of the Middle East?

Rainjack…I beg to differ on this one…and this is just my view point. And I want to preface this by saying I respect what you post here.

Do you really think Israel would be this powerful without the billions of dollars we give them ?

There is a hate between Arabs and Jews that is in their blood. I know first hand…my grandparents were 100% Arab and I lived with them…they were both born in Lebanon ( which was a beautiful country…the jewel of the Med prior to all the shit that happened to that country. And…predominantly a Christian country prior to all the garbage there now). They REALLY hated Israel and ‘those damn Jews’ ! I would ask them why…no particular answer…just that they did and babble something about taking land away. You know the story. Point is, they did not have a valid answer as to why they hated Israel…possibly because their parents did, and their parents did, etc.

It’s been that way for thousands of years and the people over there have been living their way of life for thousands of years. Do you really think the reason they hate us is our way of life ? It could be a small part, but it is not the main reason.

Lebanese people do have a hatred of Israel and Jews. And they are not Muslim, so our way of life does not contradict any Islamic rules, etc.

They want us out of there, and they don’t like us supporting Israel in any way… we are just like Israel in their eyes.

And in a perverse way, I really believe they want Israel to unleash weapons of mass destruction on them. To them, it would then be the ultimate Jihad.[/quote]

There is a hate relationship that goes back millenia. But the hate relationship is much more one-sided than mutual. Yes, Israel hates the Arabs. But they wouldn’t give a damn about them if they stopped bombing, accepted the 90% of the land they claim that Israel offered to give back, and abandoned their very PUBLIC position that Israel should be exterminated and pushed into the sea.

Israel’s not faultless by any means. Their tactics have taken plenty of innocent life too. But they just want to exist. And much of the Arab leadership is willing to accept nothing less than their extermination.

203

[quote]frederickson wrote:
well said therower… i can’t believe anyone still believes the “they hate our way of life” bullshit.

i happen to have had a couple iraqi friends (us army translators) and dated an iranian girl for over a year and got to know most of her friends. they all laughed at this juvenile sentiment. they said most of their friends and family don’t hate the american lifestyle - what little they really know about it - and would like to enjoy such a lifestyle and/or be a part of ours if they could.

pure and simple, they hate israel. and our support of israel.

anyone still playing the company line about the middle east “hating freedom” should actually get to know some of these people before professing so boldly why they dislike the united states. [/quote]

So, did your Iraqui friends and Iranian girlfriend publicly admit to a passionate hatred of Israel?

205

[quote]frederickson wrote:
well said therower… i can’t believe anyone still believes the “they hate our way of life” bullshit.

i happen to have had a couple iraqi friends (us army translators) and dated an iranian girl for over a year and got to know most of her friends. they all laughed at this juvenile sentiment. they said most of their friends and family don’t hate the american lifestyle - what little they really know about it - and would like to enjoy such a lifestyle and/or be a part of ours if they could.

pure and simple, they hate israel. and our support of israel.

anyone still playing the company line about the middle east “hating freedom” should actually get to know some of these people before professing so boldly why they dislike the united states. [/quote]

I don’t doubt that many normal ME’ers actually want to com ehere and be a part of our society.

However, those aren’t the folks on TV calling us “The Great Satan”.

Why is the US called the great satan, if our only crime is supporting Israel?

AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

206

[quote]rainjack wrote:
frederickson wrote:
well said therower… i can’t believe anyone still believes the “they hate our way of life” bullshit.

i happen to have had a couple iraqi friends (us army translators) and dated an iranian girl for over a year and got to know most of her friends. they all laughed at this juvenile sentiment. they said most of their friends and family don’t hate the american lifestyle - what little they really know about it - and would like to enjoy such a lifestyle and/or be a part of ours if they could.

pure and simple, they hate israel. and our support of israel.

anyone still playing the company line about the middle east “hating freedom” should actually get to know some of these people before professing so boldly why they dislike the united states.

I don’t doubt that many normal ME’ers actually want to com ehere and be a part of our society.

However, those aren’t the folks on TV calling us “The Great Satan”.

Why is the US called the great satan, if our only crime is supporting Israel?

AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to. [/quote]

Exactly. The people aren’t the government. There’s lots of middle easterners who don’t even hate Israelis and Jews. So, if they don’t share those feelings with their lunatic, extremist leaders, they don’t really have a window into what motivates them any better than anyone else. The crazies hate us more because of our support of Israel. But would still hate us if even we gave no aid to Israel.

207

[quote]therover wrote:
There is a hate between Arabs and Jews that is in their blood. [/quote]

Racist talk is acceptable now?

Lebanon is not that old. Even the French mandate of Syria doesn’t go back to a full century. Five years after Lebanon was declared independent, the Zionist states was created. It caused massive demographic changes in the region that upset the fragile order of things in Lebanon. Fast forward twenty years, the country had to bear the cost of another massive wave of refugees. And while Palestinians got integrated within the Jordanian society (even rose up to prominence, for example in the banking sector) they were cast out in the nation of the cedar. A decade later, and after Amman gave the Palestinian militants the boot, the civil war started causing a huge burden on Lebanon and its population.

Much of this, can be directly (or indirectly) traced back to the creation of Israel. Did the Jews not deserve a state of their own after the Shoah? Of course they did! But for most Lebanese, it was for the Germans to bear that burden, not themselves.

Regardless, the Zionist state is now a reality. Thanks to a massive influx of scientists, intellectuals, etc. as well as its status as world’s biggest recipient of foreign aid per capita (courtesy of American taxpayers and the relentless work of AIPAC), it became a regional power and an international economic player to be reckoned with. On the flip side, loads of people were displaced, entire villages and communities isolated (the wall of shame, anyone?) and what was initially a movement for the freedom of the Palestinians was progressively transformed into a movement to terrorize the Israelis. T’sahal’s reprisals are doing nothing but feed the cycle of violence.

208

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
But they just want to exist. [/quote]

We are way past that point.

I’m curious. Besides Hamas (which rules as it can over an open-air prison), who do you have in mind when you say “much of Arab leadership”?

209

[quote]rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to. [/quote]

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

210

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.[/quote]

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran.

211

[quote]rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran. [/quote]

Don’t delude yourself. Americans have little to no leverage over Tel-Aviv.

212

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran.

Don’t delude yourself. Americans have little to no leverage over Tel-Aviv.[/quote]

Don’t delude yourself. The only reason the aforementioned countries still exist is because of the US leverage over Israel.

213

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran.

Don’t delude yourself. Americans have little to no leverage over Tel-Aviv.[/quote]

We do. However, there is no way in hell that Israel would simply raise Palestine, Syria, Egupt, Iraq, and Iran to the ground under any circumstances. They know that if they tried to do that, Israel would fall just as swiftly.

214

[quote]lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But they just want to exist.

We are way past that point.

And much of the Arab leadership is willing to accept nothing less than their extermination.

I’m curious. Besides Hamas (which rules as it can over an open-air prison), who do you have in mind when you say “much of Arab leadership”?[/quote]

Many. And they’re none too quiet about it. Ahmadinejad for one. As recently as last month, he vowed to continue to support Hamas until the collapse of Israel. Iran also writes “Death to Israel” and “Death to the United States” on missiles exhibited on parade.

215

[quote]lixy wrote:
therover wrote:
There is a hate between Arabs and Jews that is in their blood.

Racist talk is acceptable now?

Lixy…it was my point of view. I apologize if you think this was a racist remark. All I know is, my grandparents, and their siblings/cousins, etc. didn’t like Jews. They may have been racists, but I am sure there are more racists in this world than just them. And at this point in my life, I am not sure exactly what a racist is ! It’s too gray to me and I am too tired to try to figure it out. I mean there are racists remarks, racist acts, racist thoughts, etc.

Lebanon is not that old.

I have to call you out on this one. Not that old ? Isn’t it referenced in the Bible ? Since before that day, there was continued bad blood between Arabs and Jews. I am not talking about the countries independence, or when it was considered something for international bullshit. I am talking about its’ people, and it’s culture. And I am only talking specifically to that part of the Arab world. Due to it being on Israels border, and the clashes they had over millinea, they just don’t like each other. I think the Arabs don’t like worse ( what a screwy sentence that was !!! ).

For me, being part Lebanese, I had wished the US would have tried to democratize that country a long time ago. Tell me everyones thoughts…would it have made sense to try (I know Arafat was a mother fucker for a long time, but at some point Lebanon was a fairly peaceful country), but considering it would/may have helped Israels stability in the region. Or is it because there weren’t any viable natural resources there ?

216

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran.

Don’t delude yourself. Americans have little to no leverage over Tel-Aviv.

We do. However, there is no way in hell that Israel would simply raise Palestine, Syria, Egupt, Iraq, and Iran to the ground under any circumstances. They know that if they tried to do that, Israel would fall just as swiftly.[/quote]

The main reason is that the Israeli people would not sit silently by if any of the countries you mention were to be raised to the ground as you say. This is not the 19th century anymore and states don’t have monopoly over over information.

You can’t just call someone a savage, make up cannibalistic stories or manufacture fake WMD “evidence” to justify violence. You just can’t get away with it nowadays. But that’s a long story.

So let me rephrase my previous post: Americans exert less pressure over Tel-Aviv than Zionists do on Washington. I’m betting all the meat in my freezer that there are a shitload more Israeli spies in the US than there are American spies in Israel.

Israel does things it deems in its own interest. The US government is heavily influenced to work towards those same interests. I personally can’t see what the average American is getting out of this unconditional alliance that’s costing him/her so much, but I’m sure some of you will try to explain it.

217

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But they just want to exist.

We are way past that point.

And much of the Arab leadership is willing to accept nothing less than their extermination.

I’m curious. Besides Hamas (which rules as it can over an open-air prison), who do you have in mind when you say “much of Arab leadership”?

Many. And they’re none too quiet about it. Ahmadinejad for one. As recently as last month, he vowed to continue to support Hamas until the collapse of Israel. Iran also writes “Death to Israel” and “Death to the United States” on missiles exhibited on parade.[/quote]

Look, I’m really interested in getting to this bottom of this “many”. So please indulge me. I personally can’t think of anyone in “the Arab leadership” besides Hamas arguing that position. People who did, got overthrown, died or sacked.

And at the risk of pointing out the obvious, Ahmadinejad is an “Arab leader” as much as Angela Merkel is a Kurdish one.

218

[quote]lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But they just want to exist.

We are way past that point.

And much of the Arab leadership is willing to accept nothing less than their extermination.

I’m curious. Besides Hamas (which rules as it can over an open-air prison), who do you have in mind when you say “much of Arab leadership”?

Many. And they’re none too quiet about it. Ahmadinejad for one. As recently as last month, he vowed to continue to support Hamas until the collapse of Israel. Iran also writes “Death to Israel” and “Death to the United States” on missiles exhibited on parade.

Look, I’m really interested in getting to this bottom of this “many”. So please indulge me. I personally can’t think of anyone in “the Arab leadership” besides Hamas arguing that position. People who did, got overthrown, died or sacked.

And at the risk of pointing out the obvious, Ahmadinejad is an “Arab leader” as much as Angela Merkel is a Kurdish one.[/quote]

I mispoke. But the dominant political power in Palestine and the leader of Iran calling for the ANNIHILATION of another nation isn’t bad enough? In addition to Iran, Hamas and its mission is supported by the government of Syria, many wealthy private individuals in Saudi Arabia, among others in the Arab world.

219

[quote]lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
AQ attacked the WTC twice because we are friends with Israel?

I’m not saying that radical muslims don’t have a problem with our support of Israel, but it is evident that their hatred for us goes beyond Israel.

Any idiot can see that, or they should be able to.

Absolutely! That said, the US’ unconditional support of Israel remains a legitimate grievance. Along with its support for tyrannical regimes and occasional undermining of popular will.

Unconditional support? Hardly.

If they had our unconditional support, there would be no Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, or Iran.

Don’t delude yourself. Americans have little to no leverage over Tel-Aviv.

We do. However, there is no way in hell that Israel would simply raise Palestine, Syria, Egupt, Iraq, and Iran to the ground under any circumstances. They know that if they tried to do that, Israel would fall just as swiftly.

The main reason is that the Israeli people would not sit silently by if any of the countries you mention were to be raised to the ground as you say. This is not the 19th century anymore and states don’t have monopoly over over information.

You can’t just call someone a savage, make up cannibalistic stories or manufacture fake WMD “evidence” to justify violence. You just can’t get away with it nowadays. But that’s a long story.

So let me rephrase my previous post: Americans exert less pressure over Tel-Aviv than Zionists do on Washington. I’m betting all the meat in my freezer that there are a shitload more Israeli spies in the US than there are American spies in Israel.

Israel does things it deems in its own interest. The US government is heavily influenced to work towards those same interests. I personally can’t see what the average American is getting out of this unconditional alliance that’s costing him/her so much, but I’m sure some of you will try to explain it.[/quote]

I’d never claim that Israel isn’t self-interested. I would think that’s obvious. Who should they be looking out for instead? I’m totally comfortable with our relationship with Israel.

I’m not sure that we should be giving so much aid to Israel. But that has nothing to do with Israel’s relationship with the rest of the Middle East. We can’t afford the kind of foreign aid we dole out to ANYONE right now.

We have a massive deficit and can’t even balance our budget. WE’RE the ones that need help. I’d like to see us get our shit together and worry about first thing’s first.

220

[quote]therover wrote:
lixy wrote:
therover wrote:
There is a hate between Arabs and Jews that is in their blood.

Racist talk is acceptable now?

Lixy…it was my point of view. I apologize if you think this was a racist remark. [/quote]

I don’t think there’s any doubt about how racist it was. You speak of “hate […] that is in their blood”.

Might be a figure of speech where you come from, but it’s a racist one nonetheless.

What are you saying? That having antisemitic relatives give you a free pass on racist talk?

Jews may be an ethnoreligious group, but they sure aren’t a race.

Intellectual laziness and/or complacency is, in my view, the cause of most man-made problems today.

[quote]Lebanon is not that old.

I have to call you out on this one. Not that old ? Isn’t it referenced in the Bible ? Since before that day, there was continued bad blood between Arabs and Jews. I am not talking about the countries independence, or when it was considered something for international bullshit.

I am talking about its’ people, and it’s culture. And I am only talking specifically to that part of the Arab world. Due to it being on Israels border, and the clashes they had over millinea, they just don’t like each other. I think the Arabs don’t like worse ( what a screwy sentence that was !!! ). [/quote]

Lebanese nationalism is quite strong (and I never mean that in a good sense). I personally don’t think the inhabitants of the Beirut area in the 19th century were thrilled to be under the rule of Istanbul.

So when you talk about why your parent’s parents (etc.) hated Israel, I have to question your understanding of just how much the nascent (and by your own description, thriving) state has suffered directly and indirectly because of the Zionist enterprise. The inception of Israel and the massive exoduses that followed it touched Lebanon in the flesh.

[quote]For me, being part Lebanese, I had wished the US would have tried to democratize that country a long time ago.

Tell me everyones thoughts…would it have made sense to try (I know Arafat was a mother fucker for a long time, but at some point Lebanon was a fairly peaceful country), but considering it would/may have helped Israels stability in the region. Or is it because there weren’t any viable natural resources there ? [/quote]

Believe it or not, Lebanon is one of the most democratic countries in the Arab world. I’ve said it before and will say it again: Any democratic government in any Arab country in the region will be staunchly anti-Israel. There’s no easy fix to the Lebanese problem.

It was doomed from day one by the Brits and French. Yes, it was fairly peaceful for some time and yes, it could have been a driving force for the region, but it’s fundamentally artificial and that’s the crux of the matter. Of course, neighboring the most artificial country ever doesn’t help much either.

Granted, all of this could have been averted had the Arabs in the region just accepted the Zionist state. But I just don’t see how any group of people would have allowed it. Really! It is beyond simplistic to say that present time “differences” go back to centuries old conflicts: it’s misinformed.