Mayweather vs McGregor

Training
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I agree with your point that not every champion needs to be World Class in every area of MMA.

But, does anyone really consider Forrest to be a great champion? Or even in the discussion for best P4P UFC fighter? Does anyone consider Sherk in that discussion?

If you want to put McGregor in the same category with Forrest Griffin I don’t think you are doing your own argument any favors and I actually feel that’s a disservice to Conor.

Tito? Ok, maybe a fair comparison, though again, I don’t think Tito is on anybody’s list of even top 10 (maybe not even top 20) best UFC champions (let alone best P4P).

If you are going to make an argument for Conor’s greatness, then you need to compare him to other great champions/P4P contenders.

BJ Penn? No way, dude had World Champion level BJJ, some of the best takedown defense the sport has ever seen, a granite chin, and according to Freddie Roach some of the best boxing he’s seen in MMA.

GSP? Nope. World class takedown and wrestling skills, high level submission skills (though perhaps not on Penn’s level), solid striking skills.

Aldo? Nope again. Some of the best striking skills the sport has seen, great takedown defense, Black Belt in BJJ (though he chose to rarely use it, which I see as more of a stylistic choice than a weakness of skill). Yes, Conor beat him, but, not only was that well into Aldo’s career (and let’s be honest, Father Time had some influence on that outcome as did prior injuries; had that fight happened earlier in Aldo’s career it may have gone very differently). Also, styles make fights. Dennis Hallman beat Matt Hughes twice within the first round. But Dennis Hallman isn’t even in the same ballpark as Matt Hughes in terms of overall fighting skill or greatness.

Anderson Silva? Nope.

Hughes? Still nope.

Randy? Mmmm, maaaaybe. But, although Randy was not a kick boxer the caliber of Aldo or Silva, he was masterful at striking from the Clinch (“dirty boxing”) and from the ground, had high level
submission skills, and some of the best Greco and control on the ground the sport has ever seen. In fact, he is probably the best dirty boxer that has ever fought in MMA. And although he had his share of losses, he at least defended each Belt and had a higher overall level of competition than Conor has had up to this point.

Liddell? Again, maybe. Chuck was pretty much a striker, but, he had great takedown defense so was able to nullify and keep the fight standing against just about everyone who stood in front of him (only Randy was able to take him down repeatedly). But, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with putting Conor and Chuck in the same category. Again, the only thing that I think gives Chuck the nod is level of competition and number of title defenses. But again, I’m ok with putting those two on the same level for now.

Jones or Mighty Mouse? Hilarious.

I foresee McGregor retiring after this Mayweather fight (unless Floyd “takes a fall” so they can sell the rematch/rubber match) or if he does ever defend his UFC belt being protected for as long as possible. So I don’t think he’ll ever have a long enough career to be considered as an all time great, even if he does round out his skills.

Just my opinion though.

2 Likes
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Start from the beginning.

My intention was never to show Conor’s stature.
It was to point out zebs nonsensical point of view, to which had no point, but an agenda to slander someone’s success.

His argument was that Conor doesn’t have the credentials to be great. So fuckin what? When the fuck did credentials become a requirement to do shit in MMA?
Which in turn I named some champs who weren’t ‘complete’ fighters, without the proper ‘credentials’ but got the job done.

If he wanted a p4p discussion, that’s fine.
But if you read what he writes, it’s moreso directed very much at downplaying what Conor has achieved.

And of course, every man is entitled to their opinion. Which is why I decided to call him out on his, albeit perhaps unaware, but deliberate biased point of view.

It’s okay to not like Conor. I was simply challenging his view.
His soft, delicate point of view.

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Screenshot_20170809-161810
Screenshot_20170809-1618101060×1326 781 KB

Lucky punch on Aldo
Unconditioned mendes
Lucky punches on Alvarez
Lucky verdict against Diaz

Ducking Frankie to fight for $100 mil. Shame on Conor.

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That McGregor is not a completely balanced fighter is far from nonsensical as it happens to be true. And it has been pointed out to you on this thread by more than just me. For example, how many wins has he had by submision? Uh huh. I am not claiming, and never have, that this means he’s not a good fighter. But I have claimed that if he was not protected by Dana White he would not be champon. And if you scroll back you even admitted that Edgar would defeat him. So we actually agree on that point.

And as an aside…purely for your own edification:

Slander is something that is said that is untrue and damages a persons reputation. On the other hand libel is something that is written.

However, it’s very difficult to slander or libel a celebrity. And in this case impossible as what I have stated is true and in fact well known by those who understand mma.

And yet you have not refuted even one of my points. You listed a bunch of mma fighters who were not well balanced BEFORE being well balanced was essential to stay on top. I pointed that out to you and you had no retort. Now go back and study the history of mma and you will get a far better idea of what I’m talking about. I understand you are a big fan of McGregor and that’s great. But, don’t let your love for him blind you to the facts. And those facts have been pointed out to you multiple times by me and other posters.

One more point your above statement is nonsense as the Mayweather fight was not even suggested at the time that the UFC offered up and out of shape Mendez to fight their favored son McGgregor instead of a ready to fight Edgar. It was back in July 2015 if memory serves me correctly. You really need to get your facts straight. Especially before you bring the attitude that you have to this thread.

I suppose you can walk around thinking whatever you like. Some people think that they’re George Washington. But, that doesn’t make it a reality now does it?

I’ll finish by telling you one more time that McGregor is a good fighter who is not well balanced. And of course he will get his ass handed to him by Mayweather…but I don’t think anyone will argue otherwise regarding that final point. You agree on that right?

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I know you like pictures so I posted this just for you Jarvan.

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What? I don’t agree with you on anything.

You have completely ignored every inequity I’ve pointed out…

Some fighters usually win by submission. Some usually win by decisions or knockout.

Some are strikers, some are grapplers.

There are strengths and there are weaknesses.

It ain’t just one man, it’s every fighter that’s ever stepped into the octagon.

Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Which fighter has never shown a weakness?

Why are you so concerned about credentials when they have been shown not to be of utmost importance in MMA?

Frankie, Aldo, khabib etc all have a chance at beating Conor. For sure. Conor has been in the UFC for just three active years. Give him some time. Maybe he IS a sham. But from what it seems for now, he gives people like you a reason to live. You live to bring down others, in any way possible.

Rather than discussing the fight against Floyd, you’re questioning his two belts, his wins, and all else that means fuck all.

Truthfully, my honest intention was to show you how you’re just naturally spitting hatred against someone who’s taken MMA to the next level. You’re even shitting on Bisping. A man who never turned down a fight, Dana confirmed, and worked ten years to finally have that strap… Yea he’s not well mannered, or have an extensive wrestling career, or a bjj black belt, or any of that that shit you think is required.

You also failed to respond to that one too. Who’s been waiting in line for a title shot at MW?

I mean, you question Conor’s wins because he doesn’t have enough submissions? A string of KOs isn’t enough huh? Well that’s you, I guess.

With that said, I’ll let you to it.

Go on and hate on bud. Grasp on to it! Don’t let me deter ya.

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Ha ha I don’t hate any of the fighters. I don’t even hate you for not grasping what this conversation is about. I actually admire the fighters in many ways for what they can do. I am simply giving my commentary on a thread that I began about McGregor’s lack of balance in his game. You on the other hand act like such a fan boy that you are all broken up about my one simple comment.

You need to do the following things:

  1. Do a quick study on the history of mma and the UFC.

  2. Compare what McGregor brings to the game to other CURRENT champions.

  3. Read every word carefully and make sure your statements are accurate.

  4. Remember what you have written. You only embarass yourself by not remembering that we agreed and you said “Absolutely Frankie can pull it off.” in a fight against McGregor.

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He should have spent more time on his ground game instead of perfecting this incredible walk.

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The punch on Aldo was extremely well timed and accurate. To me it was clear that he got into Jose’s head coming into that fight (and I will wholeheartedly endorse Conor’s greatness when it comes to the “mental game”/gamesmanship/psychological warfare) and got him to fight out of emotion rather than to keep a level head like he usually does. As a result Aldo uncharacteristically rushed in with his chin in the air, making him wide open for McGregor’s counter Left hand. Solid (and most impressive IMO) win for Conor.

My saying “anyone can get lucky” is more in response to him not defending the belt and choosing instead to fight Diaz, thinking it would be a bigger payday/better matchup for him, leaving me to believe that he didn’t want to fight Aldo again (or Edgar) and instead basically “cashed out his chips as soon as he got a good hand and left the game.”

Also, anytime a fight ends so early on a single well timed/placed punch, the element of luck has to be taken into account. Had it gone 5 rounds and Conor was outstriking Aldo the whole fight, then landed a final well timed Left that put him out; or if they fought several times and Conor KO’d or at least outstruck him in all those bouts, then I think you could conclusively say that Conor’s KO was not lucky but based entirely on him being the better striker.

As far as Mendez goes, go back and watch that fight again, and you can clearly see that Mendez’s lack of conditioning was more instrumental in Conor’s win in that fight than a skill disparity in McGregor’s favor. Mendez was manhandling him until he gassed out. It’s pretty well known that Chad let’s “himself go” between fight camps and took that fight on short notice (meaning he was lt in the type of shape he would have been with a full training camp behind him). Contrast this to Edgar who is in shape 24/7/365, hence why Dana and Conor chose Mendez instead of Frankie.

Still give Conor credit for his “heart” and weathering Chad’s storm, but let’s be honest and acknowledge that had Mendez not gassed in that fight, he likely would have had his hand raised at the end of it.

Diaz whooped Conor the first time and exposed McGregor’s bad habits and lack of ground knowledge when he mounted him and Conor turned his back to try to escape. The second fight was a controversial split decision in Conor’s favor, hardly a one sided asswhooping that left no doubt that McGregor deserved to have his hand raised.

The win over Alvarez was legit. Kudos to Conor for that victory.

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Sure, that punch on Aldo could be considered lucky. And as you’ve said, if the fight wore on it could’ve been different. We know Jose to be resilient even into the later rounds against solid strikers like Frankie. With that said, we can’t be too shocked because it’s something Conor has been doing for awhile. I can’t think of any other fighter with more consistent KO’s in recent times.
I was rooting for Conor, but like most of us, wished it would’ve faired a bit longer.
Let’s also point out that Aldo was on the most unbelievable winning streak. Ten years? Ten years undefeated. Lucky punches don’t kill a lion.

I think Conor’s win against Chad was legit. He knew Chad would eventually take em down and rough him up. Which is why, unlike his other fights, Conor focused on teeping to the gut. And for anyone who hasn’t fought, or even sparred, one teep to the gut won’t always floor you, but it’ll fuck up your breathing royally. I say its the gameplan that worked. But of course, it’s all circumstantial.

I’m a huge Diaz bros fan, but I don’t get where people say he destroyed Conor. Conor had the clear upper hand in the beginning, until his gas tank failed him. Diaz lit him up, made him go for a desperate dive, and easily choked his life out. Getting destroyed is what Weidman did to Munoz.

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And who says Edgar is in shape 24/7?
Complete assumption.
Who says Chad was out of shape?
If you hadn’t already, look back on his interviews when he said he stayed in shape after his lamas fight. Everyone and their mothers were calling out Conor, Chad was one out of a dozen. Chad was still in contention and was ready to fight four months after his fight with lamas.

Chad isn’t Ricky Hatton. He doesn’t ever, ever let himself go. He hunts and only eats free range. His excuses came up after he had already lost.

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I mean, do you demand that out of everyone?
If you saw 23 minutes of Chael vs Silva, you could conclusively say another assumption?

Guy lol stop and think who else you are so scrupulous with. Do you want to see dc vs Jones 8 more times?
That left kick could easily be called lucky.
If someone wins too soon, it doesn’t prove anything?
Look at all these conditions you’re trying to attach to a single fighter.

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Both he and his management team say it. Mendez took the fight on less than two weeks notice. A fight that Frankie Edgar begged for (and was in shape to take). But, Dana White the great manipulator of outcomes chose Mendez. Now why do you think he did that?

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Actually yes, I am that scrupulous with every fighter I watch, not just Conor.

If a fight ends in less than a minute due to 1 well placed punch, I am not going to make the conclusion that the winner was the superior striker. If you’ve ever fought or even sparred full contact you know that it often just takes one well placed punch to turn the tides or even end a fight.

A single punch KO doesn’t necessarily mean superior striking skills to me as sometimes that KO was due to power, other times it may be due to timing, other times it may be due to accuracy, other times it may be due to their opponent having a “glass jaw,” and yet other times it may be due to luck.

If a fighter is able to repeatedly land accurate, well timed, and effective strikes on their opponent, then I’m going to conclude that they were the more skilled fighter. Not saying that superior power, aggression/pressure, durability, or other attributes aren’t important though or don’t decide the outcome of quite a few fights. Just, those attributes aren’t the same thing as “being more skilled.”

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I agree, but wouldn’t you agree that it takes a skillful person to land a punch to dethrone someone who’s been undefeated as long as Fedor has and upended top notch competition in the UFC for the past… Five years?

And I don’t know why you aren’t touching upon what I’ve already mentioned, but it’s not like Conor hasn’t been doing it… He’s been artfully dropping people, consistently, with that left hand. They know it’s coming, and it still connects.

Again, I agree it would be better confirmation to see him hit attacks repeatedly… But if that’s the case, rewatch both Diaz fights and Alvarez. You just can’t call that a fluke. Nobody has ever dropped Diaz like that, repeatedly I might add. Diaz is as tough as they come.

A well timed, precise shot drops people. You don’t want to necessarily stand and bang with 4oz gloves. You wanna snipe that jaw, the temple, or obliterate their gas tank… So that you can snipe the jaw…

And of course, it was obvious that Aldo ‘might’ve’ acted out of character, but keeping your composure is part of the war.
SunTzu101.

And… not arguing that it couldn’t have been lucky. It definitely could’ve been. Wanted to say that before someone gets their panties twisted. But take a look at Conor’s warm-up prefight. Pull cross, pull cross, pull cross. Stepped into the cage… Pull cross, KO.

And also, we weren’t disputing if Conor was a better striker than Aldo. I was pointing out an obvious bias that is shown towards Conor. It isn’t his fault Chad filled in at 189, that Jose went for the that combo and got clipped. There seems to be an excuse for every single match. People simply refuse to give him any credit. When you have that kind of blatant bias, it’s hard to ever have a civil conversation… Case in point, zeb. If you point out a flaw in his hateful diatribe, you are automatically deemed a Conor fanboy.

Very similar to the President right now in the U.S. If you EVER mention how he is destroying pedophiles and looking into America’s opioid addiction, you automatically become a racist bigot who particularly hate Muslims. You also are deemed an avid Trump supporter who negates all the bad shit he does.

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True, it is the corrupt Dana White who attempts to keep his money machine going by favoring certain fighters like McGregor and Bisping…there have been others in the past. To overlook the financial aspect and why Dana White is still doing this year after year is very shortsighted.

You’re very mistaken as I have said many times that I do not hate McGregor. Why in the world would I hate someone I don’t even know. Maybe that happens in your world but not in mine. When I critiqued McGregor it is you who said, “sitdown bitch” , hateful language because you favor McGregor in a big way. It is you that is so very biased that you cannot see McGregor’s flaws, nor can you see how he has been favored by Dana White. On top of that you have not yet admitted that White favors certain fighters in order to make more dollars.

You need to take a step back and view these fighters, even your favorites, through an unbiased view point. So far you have not shown the ability to do that with your favorite Conor McGregor.

Well, I cannot argue with that you’ve hit it spot on!

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How am I not giving him credit? I fully acknowledged his mental game, his self promotion game, that his KO on Aldo was excellently timed and accurate, that he had beaten everyone the UFC had put in front of him to earn the title shot against Aldo, and his legitimate win over Alvarez to earn the LW belt.

What I am doing though is pointing out that his “wins” (I put that in parenthesis because IMO a controversial split decision is not a win, it’s an opinion at best and I personally hate the UFC’s 10 point must scoring system) have all come against opponents who he stylistically matches up well with (or perhaps you are arguing that Dana and the UFC are responsible for not wanting him to fight poor matchups like Edgar, which I could agree with).

Now part of that he deserves credit for as he is a huge featherweight with long reach, a lefty, and has great counterstriking skills (making him a tough stylistic matchup in general). But part of it is also him/Dana not wanting to fight opponents who he didn’t match up well with. Honestly, had he fought Edgar instead of Mendez and beat him we would likely be having a very different discussion because in that case I would be totally on board about his skills/greatness.

Part of this is also my frustration/disappointment with the direction I’ve seen the UFC going in general over the past few years and Conor is simply the poster child for this seemingly new era of “hype/profit over legitimacy.” I don’t fault him personally for his capitalization on this trend or desire to set himself up financially for the rest of his life though; good for him. I’m just not buying the hype.

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Road fc put in place a very, very new scoring system which I believe Herb Dean is learning and teaching now that looks at the fight as a whole, rather than in rounds. There are points awarded for knock downs, submission attempts, and such.
At this point, I’m willing to take a look into anything beside the current system. It promotes the lay and pray and based on archaic understanding of the sport.

IMHO, though not a walk through, Conor was the clear winner of the second bout. But agree to disagree, that’s a topic for another day.

Frankie never getting a crack at Conor weighs heavily on a lot of people’s minds, including myself. I’m a fan of both fighters and I think if a featherweight is out there with a chance against Conor, it’s Frankie. Mendes is tough, but Frankie is that and scrappy as fuck. I think Frankie can eat a left hand or two, pummel his way in, and possibly grind out a ground and poundfor the victory.
Unfortunately, it never came to be and that’s that.
I also think Max would pose a very serious opposition too…

This is, the Machida era. I mean, the McGregor era.
Love em or hate em, he’s the absolute #1 commodity in sports entertainment. And if we look at history, these kind of polarizing figures captivate us and we, as a society, like it or not, become immersed in it.

I can’t fault Dana and co for promoting Conor because why wouldn’t they? I’d say it’d be idiotic not to… Or to only promote him as much as the other fighters for the sake of, I dunno, equality? Who the fook is Nik Lentz?
Conor got special treatment, no doubt, but I don’t think it’s the special treatment that helped him win two belts via KO.
The fight business is very much the money business, it’s the story business, it’s the entertainment business, etc.

I don’t think people hate him, really. I think most are just in disbelief… In disbelief that such an unlikable/likable loudmouth could continually predict the round in which he KOs his foes. The only other man to call out shit like that was the Babe.

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It’s fine to promote a good fighter but not so fine to protect that fighter from someone who would have an exceptionally good chance of beating him. And Frankie Edgar was cheated out of that opportunity because of Dana “arranging” just the right opponents so that his favorite would not possibly lose.

It’s disgusting and corrupt!

Actually Babe Ruth never called where he would hit that home run it is pure legend.

http://thecalledshot.com/thecalledshot.com/Home.html

On the other hand Muhammed Ali used to occasionally predict the round that he would win in with far greater accuracy than McGregor. And even he was wrong many times.

Do you remember this prediction from McGregor:

“I respect Nate,” McGregor said. "Don’t get me wrong, I do respect Nate. There are a lot of pussies in this game and he is not one of them. Don’t get me wrong. There’s a respect there between us, but it’s business in there. And business is business. He will be KO’d inside the first round."

Not such a good prediction huh?

McGregor is a loud mouth but that is not the issue that I have with him. My problem with him is that he is not nearly well balanced enough to be considered a really good mma fighter. And the fact that Dana made sure that he never fought Frankie Edgar proves my point.

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I’d personally disagree with not categorizing him as “a really good MMA fighter.” In my book he definitely qualifies for “really good.” You don’t win a belt in two weight classes and beat one of the all time FW’s (albeit later into his career) while doing it without being really good. I’d place any fighter in the top 5 of any established weight class as “really good.” Sure, some divisions are “deeper” than others, but unless it’s a newly created division, the top 5 fighters are generally really good at MMA.

Unless he erases that huge question mark of Edgar from his record though, I’m not going to categorize him as “great.”