My english composition teacher in college was a feminist.
Do you have any idea how embarassing and frustrating it is to sit in a class while your teacher, who dresses like a bum (because women feel pressured to look beautiful because of men, as she put it), makes her argument against men - how they pressure women to be senssitive, how men pressure women to look gorgeous and how they're the root of being obsessed with makeup and beautiful clothes, and how the government is against feminists, because if they had their way, the economy would crash because there would be no more women trying to look good and pretty for the men.
She made me write a fucking paper SUPPORTING feminism. Im a man. How the fuck do you tell a male student to write a paper on how men are scumbags, the root of all suffering in women - with a straight face? Good student that I am, I wrote a good, if incredibly humiliating paper, on how the 'truth' is that women are just as physically capable as men, how men do pressure women to look beautiful which causes them to be obsessed with make-up and clothes, and perfume, and develop eating disorders. I got a B+ - but I got a scar I now have to live the rest of my life with...arrgghhhhhh. May I point out, I later dropped out of the class. While Id tried to stick to the teachers demands in her class, I felt my balls were shrinking by the minute, and could not attend one more of her classes.
Nevermind trying to argue with her feminism views. Why? Because 'this is my class, and this is the topic I chose for this semester. I couldve chosen something else, but this is an important issue, bla bla bla, and if you're not learning, then Im not doing anything here. When you're a teacher you teach your own 'right' perspective on feminism, but in this class, I am the teacher, and this is the perspective I need you to learn, bla bla bla....'
Years later, after abandoning any prospect for a writing related career, and instead finishing up my pilot training (miles away from any feminist writers), I still grind my teeth to sawdust when thinking about that bitch.
^^
you should read what i wrote…ok, first of all…you seem to be a little ignorant of the feminist movement, so any argument would be wasted energy.
your point is that women want equal rights but don’t want to fight for them…or are unwilling to accept the consequences of equal treatment. Now…that is where i would beg to differ and where terminology comes into play. Women have fought to have construction jobs, fire fighting jobs and military jobs. Look at the training for these things. they are all very strength intensive. even very strong women have trouble with it, however in the name of equal rights requirements are lowered…which is bad because i don’t want to be rescued by 130 lb woman from a fire or be in combat with someone who can’t carry around their own shit or unload boxes or whatever people do in the military. but trust me, there are plenty of feminists and otherwise who would have the standards lowered just equality when there are many unequal things between the sexes. which is one of the downfalls of the feminist movement, not recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of each sex.
Being afforded equal protection under the law does not necessarily translate into being treated badly. I think you need to be more clear with terms is all I’m saying. Feminism is not bad, it has had an anti-feminine bent though…like thinking that being more like men is good when in fact…its bad. ugh 
whatever
Esmee - I don’t think guys necessarily like the chase, it’s something that we’ve come to expect. as far as a girl having sex on the 1st date, well this is a tricky topic, and one that’s also personal. If I was out with a girl on our first date, and she was willing to have sex with me, my first question would be “Is she drunk? I don’t want to face rape charges.” And then my second thought would be “How many other guys has she done this with?” Yes, I know it’s a strange reaction for a man to have. But here’s the thing; I’m past just wanting to get laid. I want a woman whom I find attractive physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to decide that she feels the same way about me. I can’t decide on a first date if I’m attracted to a woman on all those levels (except the physical level, and she sure can’t decide that about me. If she’s willing to give me a tumble, then A) she has a high sex drive and finds me physically attractive B) she’s horny and I’m convenient. Now please understand, there’s nothing wrong with either motivation, in the past they were perfectly acceptable to me. But now, it’s not what I want. A bit unusual, I know, but just one mans opinion. If only I could figure out what women want…
Who cares if one gender is more intelligent than the other. What the hell does it matter? Will it make any difference in the world? And who can prove it? There are a variety of intelligence levels no matter the gender, race, etc. Remember the bell curve. There are always a few outlying extremes.
Hhmm, interesting. DAN C, I refute your premises.
Demand (sexual drive) is built-in in women and never in shortage with all the women around - too. What’s your point? Men and women each have sex drives (let’s not get into a pissing contest on who is horniest) and there are plenty of both sexes around and therefore there is no sexual “shortage”. Just because YOU (collective, not personal) can’t get laid when YOU want does not a shortage make. Try looking at YOUR personality, skills, various other characteristics - or lack thereof - as the reason for YOUR not getting laid. Oh, but wait, that would involve accepting responsibility… can’t go there.
Who’s problem is it that men think with their “little head”? Uh, yeah…that’s right…it’s the female’s fault that the male can’t control his impulses or maintain rationality. Because it is the female’s responsibility to ensure that the male keeps his wits about him. Sounds like a bit of blame shifting to me. Only makes sense that it’s the female’s responsibility since, of course, females aren’t affected similarly. They never make poor or irrational choices based on horniness. Sorry to burst that bubble, I’m copping to that. I’ve made some damn bad choices because all I could think about was getting some hot cock sliding up in me. Who was responsible for those choices? ME. Am I crying that a man took advantage of my horniness? No. Take a lesson, pal.
Women can make men jump through hoops?! Really?! DAMN, I wish I’d known that. Because, you know, I’ve tried it. And I’ll be damned but some of the motherfuckers just won’t jump! But instead of me thinking that was a bad thing (because they didn’t “obey”) - I ended up digging the fact that they could stand up to me and NOT be led around by the dick.
So maybe the problem here is that women will test a man to see if he is indeed a MAN and not some Pavlovian dog, sans the rational canine thought. And that’s a problem because it’s the woman’s responsiblity to make sure that the man is rational and dignified and by testing him, she neglects her role in monitoring his boorish behaviour. So she failed him.
Aaah, I get it now. More of that blame shifting, not accepting responsibility stuff.
Since I failed to see any “logic” in the first three parts I’m not sure what this “logic” is that you are referring to. The only reason women can “expect to pull stunts” is because men fail to call them on their bullshit. Men call men on their bullshit. Men do not call women on it. Who’s fault is that?! Oh, yeah. It’s the woman’s fault. Why? See above.
So all that bullshit about having some “logic” somewhere in that post was just a smokescreen for what you already know? Men have as much power in a sexual situation as women do but they “cave in”. Does this make women smarter or more efficient? No. It makes them women. If you don’t like how you look by comparison - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
CMC: You’re right. Get your head on straight, pass on the drama queens and get yourself a nice levelheaded girl with a fantastic, sexy, tight ass. You deserve her.
Paul,
I usually have those same thoughts, but then do it anyway… Who is the dumb one in that scenario? I believe that women also have urges, and if the feeling is copacetic then why not?
Maybe I’m just a dirty bastard with too much T, who knows.
Now I’m feeling all self conscious and reflective, thanks…
KARMA: Thanks for the input. Some points I agree. Others not. I’ll chew it and will respond when in a better situation (i.e. in a couple of hours).
BradTGIF-Like I said, one mans opinion. Maybe I suffer from low T levels and repressive upbringing. Anyway, like I said, I used to feel the same. “Hey, I’m horny, she’s horny, let’s be horny together!!” Lots of fun. I’m not really sure when, but I just got to the stage when I found the whole experience … unsatisfying. It took me a while to finally get to the bottom of it, but when I did, it floored me. I was bored with sex!! A friend of mine suggested that I try something different. Don’t just sleep with them, he said. Get to really know them at first. And sunavagun, it worked!! Sort of. I found myself not wanting to have sex with soem of the women, but the ones that I did, I really enjoyed the whole expererience a lot more. Maybe I just wasn’t doing it right the first few years … hmmmm.
I’m willing to jump through hoops!
Dan c: While I’ve seen relationships that operate in the manner described in your list of premises, I certainly don’t think it’s the norm. Most of your premises boil down to one assumption, that women have the power to give or withold sexual intimacy over a man and he plays no part in the matter. This sort of relationship is portrayed frequently on t.v. sitcoms and shows and I kinda find it pathetic. Personally, If a potential mate’s going to give me sex as a reward for “jumping through a hoop”, I’m not interested. I’ll jump through hoops for someone who shares there kindness, respect, loyalty and love with me, but not for sex. I have no interest in being serviced for being a good boy.
WARNING : LONG POST.
KARMA : A woman here that refutes general premises everybody accepts ? Fiiiiiine. Rare treat. Lets get down to the specifics then. Since I noticed you like switching abstraction levels (general-macro-level/specific-micro-level/personal-individual) in your arguments, Ill have fun doing the same and not limiting myself to abstracts like at the start of the post and even try answering you on all three levels for each answer (G/S/P), and include both sexes where applicable, just for the fun of it.
(Sorry for not knowing how to use colors like you did in your answer. Therefore caps are used to compensate).
PREMISE 1A) Demand (sexual drive) in built-in in men and never in shortage with all the men around. // What’s your point?
G1A) Compare mens dreams, wishes and priorities to womens in the sex/love area. Just look at sales for a pointer : Why is porn bought more by men than women ? Why do women buy all these romance novels and men do not (I hope !) or significantly far less ? Why do men think about sex first, and all the sentimental stuff far after ? Why do women want love, communication, admiration, love, attention, being desired, all that before sex ? Could it be, my gosh, that men are different and DO have different tastes, drives and appetites ??? You bet ! Look at the sales ! If that aint proof of desire for something, I wonder what is. Oh no?that trend/difference must be a statistical abberation that just wont quit I guess.
S1A) Easy. Just throw in any example that does not fit the generality in G1. Easier. Contradict any statement. Some women buy more porn than men. Woman A thas has a higher sex drive than man B. Woman A is not a Harlequin-reader. Man B does not buy porn. You get the drill. This is no way nullifies G1, it just notes that exceptions always exist in any population or generality
P1A) What the hell do I care of others (non significant ones) sex drive ? I have no control over it. They have no control over mine. Mines mine. Theirs theirs. What more is there to be discussed ? It makes as much sense as arguing about eyecolor or genetic lottery traits, IMHO. The only exception is the significant one`s sex drive, which is to be taken into account ? levels must be similar or frictions could be an issue.
PREMISE 1B) //Just because YOU (collective, not personal) can’t get laid when YOU want does not a shortage make. Try looking at YOUR personality, skills, various other characteristics - or lack thereof - as the reason for YOUR not getting laid. Oh, but wait, that would involve accepting responsibility… can’t go there.
G1B) Population wise, I guess that cant-get-laid-enough-dom for men has no link or effect on porn demand. Just a coincidence again I must guess. OTOH, a guy satisfied with what he gets in his life wont look elsewhere. So, based on sales numbers, there are tons of unsatisfied men in the sex department. You can apply that logic to the Harlequin-book crowd too for love demands.
S1B) Your argument fits fine on that level. Nothing I can say more. Once again, women who can`t find love fit this bill also. One has to offer something that is loveable to be loved. In both cases, no one is absolved of personal responsibility for his state.
P1B) It has been my personal experience that people generally dont want to take responsibility for their lives. Too bad for them. I do for mine. Nothing happens by accident. I do not believe in luck without preparation. Therefore, if I am not lucky` enough, I need to prepare more. Simple. Just requires responsibility, dedication, character, willingness to learn, change, etc. Every true T-man-woman knows that.
PREMISE 2A) The same sexual drive makes us men think us think with our little head very often. We are usually far less rational when horny, specially when aroused. // Who’s problem is it that men think with their “little head”? Uh, yeah…that’s right…it’s the female’s fault that the male can’t control his impulses or maintain rationality. Because it is the female’s responsibility to ensure that the male keeps his wits about him. Sounds like a bit of blame shifting to me.
G2A) Again, following general population trends, men having a higher demand for sex will try to quench it often and not limit themselves too much. Shit, everybody knows that. Already covered above.
S2A) Who the hell said anything about the females fault ? What the heck is that blame shifting idea ? Never heard that misery loves company and that an easy guy = easy girl expression ? Once again, nothing happens by accident. Men get punished in a way for taking the easy route : it is not satisfying. If it was so good, why do these same men get serious with the easy lady ? Why do they keep hunting when it is too easy ? Too easy = Not satisfying. Behaviour tells its own story. Sure, youll probably dish me the sometimes I just want sex and no relationship. Nothing wrong with that. News flash. Both men and women are capable of behaving like that, it just depends on where they are in their personal state/evolution. Some just go there more often than others.
P2A) Like someone said in the post, following the little brain is not a life curse. You can evolve to thinking before instincts (the 180 turn). When youve known all the pluses of a dedicated (really in love) relationship, even if you get the best sex in the world in a non-dedicated relationship, it just isnt the same. Ever thought of not having sex until you find the true gem (i.e. you dont waste time or energies if the Big brain is not having its share) ? To the risk of sounding old-fashioned, it is the best choice I ever did. When the Big and Small Brain are in harmony, oh, what an experience !
Premise 2B) //Only makes sense that it’s the female’s responsibility since, of course, females aren’t affected similarly. They never make poor or irrational choices based on horniness. Sorry to burst that bubble, I’m copping to that. I’ve made some damn bad choices because all I could think about was getting some hot cock sliding up in me. Who was responsible for those choices? ME. Am I crying that a man took advantage of my horniness? No. Take a lesson, pal.
P2B) Wow ! Kudos for being responsible. How different this is from the that bastard did this to me?just wonderful to read (a responsible woman). Never said women did not do stupid moves?remember, the theme revolved around men`s behaviour. Stupidity, hornyness, impulsive moves have no sex?.though they differ in their degrees, frequency and intensity. Always needs to be weeded out.
PREMISE 3A) Women know it very well. They can very well control the offer, and make men jump through hoops, for a potential promise of extras (and horny guys feel like in a casino and try their luck). They dont keep the product` easy to buy, so men are willing to bend over, pay more in all domains, just to have a ticket and try their luck. // Women can make men jump through hoops?! Really?! DAMN, I wish I’d known that. Because, you know, I’ve tried it. And I’ll be damned but some of the motherfuckers just won’t jump! But instead of me thinking that was a bad thing (because they didn’t “obey”) - I ended up digging the fact that they could stand up to me and NOT be led around by the dick.
G3A) I dont know whos worse. Men falling for PROMISES of sex, trying to get something for nothing, and winding up getting none? or the women who use the tactic. On that basis, Id say the women are surfing the wave fine (and wise too). Gives the guys a learning experience if they want to. Yep, tables can be turned too on this issue. How many girls ever cried for finding out they were in the end just a one-night-stand ? Every once in a while, there is an exception to that rule, like you mentionned (see next paragraph).
S3A) I guess you must have had your sucks blown off by being told NO. With all those guys bending backward for their every (sometimes stupid) whims, a guy who says no must be a rare treat. Must be the same thing we men find intriguing about Bitches. Sure, its different behaviour. Not it does not guarantee anything. Sure, its rare. Takes the predictability out of an encounter real quick too ehehhe. Somehow, it nukes out the easily taken for granted possibility out of one`s mind.
P3A) I personally don`t like losing, so I try to measure my odds of winning before fantasizing. I like fair trade. There are takers out there. Givers too. Balanced ones too. So, before starting to do crazy things and fantasizing about a woman, I ask myself the question : Is she worth it ? Really ? Based on what ? Is there brains in the package ? Is she the equivalent of an emotional tornado (out of control, surroundings are the only casualty) ? Sure she can sweet talk?does she walk the talk ? I prefer the sniper approach (assess your position and your target) rather than the shotgun approach (pitch everywhore and hope).
PREMISE 3B) //So maybe the problem here is that women will test a man to see if he is indeed a MAN and not some Pavlovian dog, sans the rational canine thought. And that’s a problem because it’s the woman’s responsiblity to make sure that the man is rational and dignified and by testing him, she neglects her role in monitoring his boorish behaviour. So she failed him. Aaah, I get it now. More of that blame shifting, not accepting responsibility stuff.
What the fuck ? What is that blame shifting fixation ? Caveat Emptor works both ways. Reminds me the Mackay saying : When a man with money meets a man of experience, the man of experience winds up with the money and the man with the money winds up with the experience. Blaming the other just proves you did not learn your lesson?yet.
PREMISE 4) By the same logic, they can expect to pull stunts that men would not tolerate from other men. // Since I failed to see any “logic” in the first three parts I’m not sure what this “logic” is that you are referring to. The only reason women can “expect to pull stunts” is because men fail to call them on their bullshit. Men call men on their bullshit. Men do not call women on it. Who’s fault is that?! Oh, yeah. It’s the woman’s fault. Why? See above.
Again, that fixation. First of all, I question your view of premises. They are like legs on tables. One by one, they can easily debated. Mind you I put them there to be examined as building blocks for the conclusion. Not as conclusions in themselves. * sigh * Take anything out of context, and you can indeed say/contest anything as you want. FYI, the issue here is expectations and its impacts on the behaviour of the other ones. Men dont expect a shit from men (as the rule, forget homosexuals and other contractual connaissances). So they tolerate far less shit from them ? they have nothing to lose. With women, humm, you see me coming. Do I need to explain it more ? Men get toyed by what they imagine (dreaming) of what they can get from women. Reverse is also valid (example : golddiggers). Conditions are different, but the lowlife mechanic remains in both cases. As for the men dont call women on their shit, I already covered this in the Maureen thread ? if women could take it without our knowing of their Ill cut you in the sex department threats or without getting shattered, yeah, maybe wed do it more. Theres a reason we dont talk, they usually dont want to hear. OK. All of this paragraph makes sense for superficial relations, and I would expect no one to fall in love under these conditions. Depends on what you want and what you tolerate. Whole different debate.
PREMISE 5) Sure, men can say no. But the sex drive is mighty, and statistically we usually lose patience and cave in to their demands. // So all that bullshit about having some “logic” somewhere in that post was just a smokescreen for what you already know? Men have as much power in a sexual situation as women do but they “cave in”. Does this make women smarter or more efficient? No. It makes them women. If you don’t like how you look by comparison - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Youve got some points. Anyway, if women have been like they are for so long and noth changing the pattern, theres a reason: it works. While I could probably argue you on the women are like this. Dont expect us to change for you arguments, I recognize it would be in the end useless. Why should women change, eh ? Why change a formula that has proven itself over time ? Mens salute is the road less traveled : put up or leave them at their games and find a woman worthy of respect. People in general do not like to upgrade themselves, so they take the easy way out. As for the efficiency, well, its simple. Women simply ARE, they have nothing to do, just to say no, while men have to BECOME men (grow up or evolve) if they want more from them. Theres the efficiency. Little invested, all the choice in the world. Except when the true T-Man enters. Now they have to prove themselves as worthy and equals. What better for both parties involved ?
(Whew ! Nice little mental workout ! LOL)
Magnus: Kudos! Same thing here!