Matt Kroc Transitions to Janae Kroc

Off Topic
1882

My brother was a very athletic kid. At 115 pounds, he had a Bench Press of 200 pounds, after only training for 2 or 3 weeks for some competition. We have very similar genetics, both built like gymnasts. In our teens, people thought we were twins. As an adult, I weigh about 115. I can’t remember my BP after only 2 or 3 weeks but lets say it was around 70 pounds. After 6 years of training, it’s 135.

Can any of you imagine that chemically bringing his T down to female levels for a year would bring his bench down to my level? That you could take his male anatomy, feminize his hormones have him benching 80-135 pounds in a year? I just can’t imagine that. Wouldn’t he still have significantly more muscle, stronger tendons, etc? He’s always been faster, stronger, just more athletic than me at the same weight on every parameter except flexibility.

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1883

Interesting discussion. I want to see the T numbers of transgender females post transition. Very curious if any would be in the neighborhood of Puff’s 25. Makes me want to get my numbers checked!

And regarding competing against women who are on PEDs: That’s the reason for the option of tested federations. A transgender woman would be ineligible for competition in any drug-tested fed since supplemental hormones of any type are not allowed.

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1884

“Men generally have an inherent performance advantage over women due to their average greater height and muscle mass and power, as the result of correspondingly different exposures to androgens. Therefore, it is considered fair that in sports men and women compete in separate categories. The question now emerging is whether reassigned transsexuals can compete in fairness with others of their new sex. The pertinent question is how far the previous effects of testosterone in male-to-female transsexuals (M–F) are reversible upon androgen deprivation so that M–F have no advantage over women, and, vice versa, what the effects are of androgen exposure in female-to-male transsexuals (F–M) on variables relevant to competition in sports. Before puberty, boys and girls do not differ in height, muscle and bone mass. Recent information shows convincingly that actual levels of circulating testosterone determine largely muscle mass and strength, though with considerable interindividual diversity. This study analyzed the effects of androgen deprivation in 19 M–F and of androgen administration to 17 F–M on muscle mass, hemoglobin (Hb) and insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). Before cross-sex hormone administration, there was a considerable overlap in muscle mass between M–F and F–M. In both M–F and F–M, height was a strong predictor of muscle mass. Androgen deprivation of M–F decreased muscle mass, increasing the overlap with untreated F–M, but mean muscle mass remained significantly higher in M–F than in F–M. Androgen administration to F–M increased muscle mass without inducing an advantage over nontreated M–F. The conclusion is that androgen deprivation in M–F increases the overlap in muscle mass with women but does not reverse it, statistically. The question of whether reassigned M–F can fairly compete with women depends on what degree of arbitrariness one wishes to accept, keeping in mind, for instance, that similar blood testosterone levels in men have profoundly different biologic effects on muscle properties, rendering competition in sports intrinsically a matter of how nature endows individuals for this competition.”

Abstract from Transsexuals and competitive sports
Louis J G Gooren and Mathijs C M Bunck
European Journal of Endocrinology (2004) 151 425–429

Check it out at www.eje.org/cgi/reprint/151/4/425.pdf . The key findings concerning T levels are encapsulated in the figure on the bottom of page 427.

1885

Do they lose bone density?

Does their skeletal frame shrink?

Does their total amount of muscle fibers decrease?

Does the ligament and tendon strength they gained to support their male body reduce to female levels?

These are dumb questions for a dumb supposition. Anyone who wasn’t completely blinded by their own biases would not even need to have them posed.

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1886

http://www.cagepotato.com/after-being-tkod-by-fallon-fox-tamikka-brents-says-transgender-fighters-in-mma-just-isnt-fair/

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right,” she stated. “Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch…"

Dumb.

1887

The whole dumb supposition relies on the dumb notion that T is the only biological differential separating men and women, and that if only that can be equalized, everything else will match right up.

Dumb.

We all know it’s dumb. At least, those of us who are being honest do.

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1888

ED you do realize prepubescent boys outperform prepubescent girls right? Are you seriously arguing that there should be no separation between boy and girl sports until after 10 years old?

1889

Hi DD, I haven’t taken a stance on that subject one way or another, so I’m not sure why you’re expressing incredulity at an argument I haven’t made.

1890

It has absolutely everything to do with what you are saying. It’s genuinely weird how you refuse to see it.

1891

Personally, I am finding the debate interesting. But I’m struggling a bit with understanding the takeaways from the study you posted, EyeDentist.

1895

But Chushin, I had no desire to make accusations against people. My initial post stated clearly that I am not up to debate if this is to be the tone of it, and wanted to simply state that I enjoyed ED’s civility along with the content he was posting, which to that point I largely agreed with. I did so because it seemed to me that most of the people on his side of the debate had retreated - possibly for the same reason I did, but of course that’s just speculation.

With the exception of the single noted sexualization in my direction, I didn’t care particularly about who did what. If I decide to leave a bar because people are getting unruly, and I say so, is it my responsibility to name each person I find unruly and identify the behaviors that lead me to that determination?

When you offered that my “policing” wasn’t going to change anything, I agreed immediately and noted that changing people’s behavior wasn’t my goal. My goal was to note that I was exiting, but that ED’s posts were enjoyable to me.

You are free not to worry about my feelings re: sarcasm or nasty jabs! If you wondered what I was referring to, a quick skim back would have either reassured you that your behavior was comfortable to you or not, at which point you could have adjusted it - or not. Most of the “passive-aggressions” you quoted were in response to ongoing questions as to my meaning.

At any rate, I suspect I’m also beating a dead horse, so I’ll end by simply noting that I value our friendship, and hope to meet someday. BTW, I can’t get into the other place. I was going to address this there, but cannot for the life of me figure out my password/login combo.

Ah, that’s right! We did disagree about that. With no negative consequences, as I recall. : )

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1896

Me too! @anon71262119, great post.

1897

I would say the following two sentences from the abstract are the crux of the matter:

“Androgen deprivation of M–F decreased muscle mass, increasing the overlap with untreated F–M, but mean muscle mass remained significantly higher in M–F than in F–M.”

In other words, treated MTF TGs ended up with muscle-mass levels that overlapped with that of cis-gendered females, but the mean muscle-mass level in the MTF group was statistically higher than the mean in untreated cis-gendered females. (If you can open the PDF and check out the graph on the bottom of page 427, you can get a better sense of how these findings can co-exist.) This finding supports the argument that, to the extent higher muscle-mass levels provide an advantage in a given sport, the average MTF TG will have a small-but-significant advantage over her cis-gendered competitors.

But, the authors go on to point out:

“The question of whether reassigned M–F can fairly compete with women depends on what degree of arbitrariness one wishes to accept, keeping in mind, for instance, that similar blood testosterone levels in men have profoundly different biologic effects on muscle properties, rendering competition in sports intrinsically a matter of how nature endows individuals for this competition.”

The authors unpack this in the Discussion section:
“In real life, there will always be an element of arbitrariness in the drawing of competitive lines. Different individuals are born with and develop postnatally different potentials. The caprices of genetics and postnatal development will make any form of competition intrinsically unfair at some level…[I]ndividual differences in response to androgen administration might reflect differences in activity level, testosterone metabolism and nutrition, or polymorphisms in androgen receptor, myostatin, 5a-reductase or other muscle growth regulators, all genetically determined and inherently personal. The implication is that all men and women are not born equally endowed for competition in sports.”

The point being, there is enormous inter-individual variation in response to test–variation which results in a lucky few individuals having an advantage in strength-dependent sports. From a sports-performance perspective, the relatively small inter-group difference in muscle-mass levels that exist between cis- and trans-gendered women may well be swamped by these inter-individual differences. And since we are willing to accept the advantages conveyed by inter-individual differences, it makes little sense to reject the small average advantage MTF TGs enjoy.

Edited to correct an error

1899

EyeDentist: So the study concedes that female transgender individuals have a statistically higher mean muscle mass than the natural born woman. But suggests that should be acceptable because some women are naturally stronger (and naturally have varying levels of muscle mass) anyways.

That seems to provide fodder for my concerns, which is that transgender females have an unfair advantage over the average woman.

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1900

I would agree with this. The only exception, as I see it, would be a transgender female who began transition prior to puberty, which is only likely to happen in the case of neonatal gender confusion anyway.

1901

I’m sorry about the rough patch, and will cop to some stress of my own here. Everything good, but my house has been under construction for six months with me #2 on the 2-person work crew, the engagement added excitement, and I have a son going to Africa with the Peace Corps next month. Everything is fine - definitely - but things have been intense. Maybe I’m touchy, too.

So if you need to smack at me in a post, go ahead! I’ll punch back and we’ll call it good.

/whentherapistsargue

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