On a related note: It has been found to violate Title IX as well, I believe.
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I don’t believe that is something the court made a statement of in the letter.
How did you determine yours?
EDIT: I guess I should ask; are you asking me out of legitimate interest in the answer, or as a form of argument?
1327 replies to this thread? People really do eat this shit up…
You will have to keep in mind that I have no side in this debate. You asked a question and I provided the answer. I in turn asked you a question (2 actually) and you provided no answer. It is WHY I asked if you were genuinely curious or simply using questions as a form of argument, as in the case of the latter, I don’t know what to tell you.
Can someone please tell me which bathroom I’m allowed to use?
None until you post a photo.
Preferably holding a shoe so we can gauge your leanness.
Of the four potential gender-related candidates re determining BR access–birth sex, current sex, gender identity, and gender identification–only one (birth sex) can be determined without having the govt inspect citizen’s junk directly (because birth sex is, by definition, the sex listed on one’s birth certificate). But as birth sex does not comport with current sex, gender identity and/or gender identification for everyone, requiring everyone to use the BR of their birth sex does not solve the ‘problem’ of individuals who seem to be in the wrong BR–people who look like men would still be in the Ladie’s room and vice versa. It also would do nothing to make women safer from perverts determined to take advantage of them in the BR.
well you are just determined to see my dong!
EDIT: I have actually been meaning to upgrade to a smartphone, and when I do I promise I’ll post up some pics
You’re making this a lot more complicated than it really is. Convention and rules about behavior in public places is designed to insure maximum utility for the most people. That means using the restrooms in such a way as to not make others around you uncomfortable or feeling threatened. Basically, there are three relevant cases that I can see.
Case 1: You are in a public place where you frequently go and people know who you are and your birth sex. Use the restroom that matches your birth sex. No need to make a stink.
Case 2: You are in a public place where you are unknown and you are going to use a stall where no one will see your junk. Use the restroom that you look like you should use. If you look sufficiently androgynous, use whatever you want. It seems unlikely that anyone will confront you.
Case 3: You are using a locker room, public shower, or other facility where you will be semi-publicly naked. Use the room that matches your junk. It’s not complicated.
And really, the whole point here is that it’s no great inconvenience for everyone to follow an ancient and reasonable convention.
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Actually, I’m simply pointing out the complications/conundrums inherent in some of the laws that have been proposed (eg, the NC birth-sex BR law).
Here’s what I would propose:
- Use the facilities you feel most comfortable using.
- Be mindful and respectful of the feelings of the patrons with whom you are sharing the facilities.
- Don’t be creepy (and if you are creepy, expect to be punished for it).
Of course, these three dicta simply re-state what the vast majority of us have been doing all along, so it’s not like I’m coming up with anything novel here.
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I don’t disagree with your list. And you’re right, it’s nothing new.
But penises in the women’s locker room are creepy. Every time. That is actually why gendered restrooms exist.
Every time? Even on an obviously trans-woman who is simply (and quickly) changing into/out of her gym clothes at a gym that has a well-known ‘trans-positive’ policy? Respectfully, I think your assertion is too strong, too blanket a statement.
But I agree that accommodations will likely have to be worked out with regard to facilities in which people disrobe (locker rooms; showers; saunas). Call me an optimist, but I am confident these issues can be worked out in a manner that reasonable people will find acceptable.
Nope. It’s creepy. In fact, a penis on someone dressed as a woman is creepier than a penis on someone dressed as a man.
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Maybe interesting reading for some, Janae Kroc (the person from the beginning of the thread that lead into this whole side topic) wrote her thoughts on the TG bathroom situation recently:
"The current controversy regarding transgender people and restrooms is a more complex issue than it appears on the surface and I have considered writing a complete article to fully explain my thoughts but here are at least a few things to think about.
As a parent of three children myself I completely understand any parent’s fear of allowing predators into the women’s restrooms. I understand that most people’s concerns aren’t the transwomen themselves but rather people who might abuse the intent to protect transgender people to gain access to restricted spaces. The thing that isn’t apparent on the surface is that this is a very unlikely scenario.
I am not going to say it’s impossible but it is highly unlikely. A predator has many other options that are better methods to achieve their desired goals (playgrounds, using puppies, candy, volunteering for positions that give them unsupervised access to young children etc.) and the idea that pretending to be transgender to get into a ladies room to assault children is rather absurd for other reasons as well.
Young children are seldom alone in restrooms as they’re usually with parents or older siblings or friends and restrooms are not typically empty and even when they are someone can enter at any moment. Again I’m not saying this can’t happen just that it’s very unlikely and that there are many other scenarios that we as parents should be much more concerned about. Additionally most sexual predators are men and they often target young boys which they already have access to in the men’s restroom.
Something else that is very important to note is that the intent of allowing transgender people to use the restroom that matches their identity isn’t about comfort, it’s about safety. Transgender people, especially trans women, and disproportionately trans women of color are attacked, physically beaten, and even murdered at an alarming rate for no other reason than simply existing.
Putting them in men’s restrooms only increases the odds of this happening and this is a legitimate concern. Laws like the one in North Carolina not only do nothing to protect our children they greatly increase the risk of transwomen being killed."
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So basically, the concerns of the privacy and safety of women and children are unimportant, but we need to be concerned about the privacy and safety of men dressing as women?
Kroc has a point that women and children are usually attacked in other places than bathrooms. But so are men dressing as women.
As I said before, any argument for men in women’s bathrooms for safety and/or privacy can be symmetrically applied to keep them out of women’s bathrooms for the safety and privacy of the women and girls that are supposed to be there.
Agreed.
One of these four was born male but has lived as a female since her late-teens.
If they’re all at the beach and then go to the locker rooms to change, or if they’re training together in the gym and then hit the locker rooms before leaving, the male-to-female TG person is supposed to veer off and head into the men’s changing room? That makes no sense to me.
Here’s the sticking point though. It’s not about advocating for men to access women’s bathrooms. It’s about allowing transgender women to access women’s bathrooms.
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Potato, potato. (Imagine that I said one of those differently than the other). Men pretending to be women are still men. Even if they chop their dicks off.
However, if they do chop off their dicks, then the most practical thing is to let them use female changing facilities. So as per the above quartet, it comes down to what his junk looks like.
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I think we’re using the word creepy in two different ways. When I say ‘Don’t be creepy,’ I am referring to the individual’s behavior. You I think are using ‘creepy’ to mean ‘disturbing; off-putting.’ And while I certainly wouldn’t presume to tell you you’re wrong–if that’s the way you feel, it’s the way you feel–what I would say is that such an attitude constitutes an unreasonable (and untenable) position upon which to hammer out whatever accommodations need to be made regarding trans individuals and intimate facilities.
Edited for clarity