Actually, the racial analogy was one of convenience (because it too involved bathroom/locker facilities), not necessity. It is in no way ‘intrinsic to my argument.’ Could also have used (off the top of my head) gay rights vis a vis marriage, or women and the suffrage.
But you are correct on one score–I do not see the analogy as demeaning to blacks. This is because, unlike you, I don’t see the transgendered as persons deserving of vituperation. It is only your gut-based revulsion of these individuals–your feeling that they are subhuman–which renders the comparison demeaning.
Of course! I don’t think anyone denies this. It’s complex, no? We are the product of our time and place. But the DSM’s purpose (one of them, the other is to simplify billing codes) is to attempt to bring order and clarity to these complex questions.
I think some of the people in this thread fail to distinguish between problems, issues, and mental illnesses.
I have a problem in that I am bustier than I feel comfortable with socially, as well as feeling that my breasts don’t match the rest of my physique, which is tall and slender. I handle it by wearing minimizing bras to work, where I do not want the focus to be on my sexual attributes, and enjoy the added benefit of the minimization making clothes look very good on me. This is neither an issue nor a mental illness.
I have abandonment issues due to my mother’s choice to leave me as a young adolescent. This can at times be a problem for me as I am quick to decide I am unwanted in relationships, and react. It is not a mental illness.
At times I deal with anxiety and related insomnia. These are problems, may be considered mental illness, and can certainly cause issues.
That TG does not meet the definition of mental illness does not mean that there are no problems or issues for the people dealing with it, or that the state of feeling mismatched with one’s body is not a tremendous problem.
If you end up needing abnormally large amounts of hormones and highly invasive very risky surgery as treatment, I think it goes a little beyond worrying that your boobs make you look too attractive at work (pics or it didn’t happen). Again, I’m getting the vibe that I’m shamming people for talking about a mental illness. I mean to imply no such shame. Autism is also a mental disorder but when it’s discussed you don’t see people getting angry over the label. Autism too is largely a personality type and a part of who a person is with the good and bad of any personality trait (except for more severe cases). I would think that’s true of TG people too. But guess what, autism is still a mental disorder. I’m not sure why people find it more offensive to talk about TG in similar terms.
Your rhetoric on this thread regarding trans people has been vituperative (adjective; “bitter and abusive”). But to preclude you rerouting the thread onto yet another word-games sidetrack, I will happily amend my statement to read “…unlike you, I don’t see the transgendered as persons deserving of condemnation.” Better? Or are you now going to argue that you haven’t been condemnatory towards them?
Then I suggest–and I mean this sincerely and respectfully, not as a dig or insult–you consider educating yourself on this topic. A plentitude of information on it can be found via Google.
Autism spectrum disorders require for diagnosis that:
D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
Which is true for most - all, maybe, no time to look - diagnoses of mental illness. It’s not true of problems or issues. I can have a problem and be fully functional. I didn’t write the DSM-V, but I would assume that this is why TG is not in there. However, there is “Gender Dysphoria,” which diagnostic criteria ends with:
B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
“Non-conformity to gender roles” is not considered a disorder/condition because there is not marked distress or impaired functioning. Janae exhibits non-conformity, not dysphoria.
This raises a lot of interesting points. Lets say that we accept that there is this internal concept of gender identity. To be simple, lets say there are two main categories.
If we actually discovered the neurological basis of gender identity, and we had the option of changing it - Should we? Lets say we now have the option of changing the TG person’s body/reassignment surgery, or changing their neurology so their gender identity matches, or neither.
What if the same thing was true of sexual orientation that is not typical? What if this Dx was possible in an infant? Should parents have the right to “fix” it?
Just a thought exercise. These things are likely much more complex, involve lots of factors, some biological and some environmental, but it’s interesting to imagine.
Some disability rights advocates dislike the whole classification system because they would rather be seen as “different” but not as something that required “fixing.”
Back to sexual orientation, I have talked to my gay friend about this a lot. He says that “he would never wish it on someone” because it’s hard in so many ways, but its such a fundamental part of who he is that he would not want to be “cured” if that were possible.
Kind of a tangent but -
These are some of the issues that come up when you’re talking about “disabilities” or “disorders.” From my example of 30% of law school students at a particular university having a “disability,” you have to wonder if some of these things are so common, they really just part of the human condition, the normal range of what you find in any group of people. When everyone is “disabled” you start to wonder if anyone is, right? Or are the classifications so vague, or so gray that they become meaningless, or in some cases are easily “faked” by people who want some perk related to the label. In that case, some of those people are taking resources from the truly disabled population.
Huh? I don’t take it as insulting. I take the word as a noun that means some things and does not mean others. Words simply give information unless they are very loaded, e.g. “evil.” I work with autistic children and adults. I would not use “autistic” (or “mentally retarded” or “schizophrenic”) as insults. They are simply words that match certain criteria, and are meant to provide shared understanding.
I really have no idea what percentage of TG people have dysphoria. I don’t pretend to be expert on the matter - I’m curious and happen to have a DSM-V sitting on my desk.
Just a shout out to Chris Colucci for doing a really nice job with the TN Kroc interview. I already told Chris this since we’re FB friends, but I think it was really well done.
I think I’ve pushed the wrong reply button a couple of times. I hope anyone feels free to respond to any comment. It’s fine with me if other people want to add something to a side conversation.
TG people are currently using the bathroom that best fits their appearance/identity. Things will mostly go on as they always have because these laws are mostly unenforceable. Unless North Carolina plans to create a potty police force who will need to check to see if you have the appropriate genitals before you go into a bathroom.
This was what I was getting at a bit with trying to “keep it simple, stupid” or not have laws that are needlessly complex or unintelligible. Let people try to make reasonable accommodations. I’m usually going to go Libertarian on things like this. If we don’t need a law, lets not write one. And if we have no intention of enforcing a law, or a law is unenforceable, then what’s the point?
Both extremes are being unreasonable, IMO.
Lets really narrowly define something as PLUMBING!
On the other extreme, lets be really complex about how gender is so fluid, biology as we know it may have nothing to do with your gender identity, add in some language about social constructs, and there are infinite number of genders based on how an individual feels. Tell people they are guilty of discrimination if they don’t buy in. You can see why people are getting kinda tired of some of this kind of thing, no?
You read some of the complexity in this and you could start to see that there are only so many PhD dissertations that can be written if people are mostly categorized as Male of Female. How many papers can you write about that?