Still wanting to play word games, huh? I tell you what–you define ‘abnormal,’ and I’ll answer your question.
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That’s what I thought.
Just a couple of things regarding practice in psychology and mental health issues and the diagnosis of disabilities or disorders. That video of the 50 something man who identifies as a 6-year-old girl isn’t typical. You could look at a lot of other TG people who aren’t that level of crazy - technical term there. BUT there is a psychologist who is doing play therapy with this person as part of their practice. When I was practicing in the elementary and preschool levels, I kept cabinets full of toys in my office, but I have my limits.
There are physicians who would have not issue with taking a young person and administering hormones to a TG youth during the developmental period that could forever change their lives. This kind of thing gives me tremendous pause. The very real possibility to do harm.
Of course, I saw a person on TV who had 132 plastic surgeries. He had implants all over his body, to try to simulate the rounded muscle bellies of a BBer. There are physicians who would refuse to treat him, but there are obviously some who don’t feel like doing another surgery on this person violates their sense of ethics.
One reason I decided to practice school psychology was to avoid some of the ethical issues I could see happening in my field. You can find some clinical psychologists doing some pretty crazy things, like play therapy with that TG guy who wants to be a 6-year-old girl.
Ethical issues still arise. The little 5-year-old kid who’s being raised in a housing project by an obese grandmother who can barely get off the couch, and is afraid to let him play outside because it’s not safe. He has a hard time sitting still and paying attention in a classroom of 35 kids. He want’s to run around and play. I have issues with deciding he’s got a bad case of ADHD, but believe me when I tell you that some people have have no issue with putting him on meds and sending him on his way. I’ve seen that more times than I can count.
We have a society where nearly everyone here could qualify as having some type of disorder. The law school here as over 30% of it’s students identified as disabled - Anxiety disorders, ADHD, learning disabilities… - Think about that for a minute. These are graduate students. There’s a lot of motivation for people who want extra time on test, including the BAR exam, or to get medications like Adderall. I could have a thriving practice evaluating college students for this kind of thing. I’m an M.Ed.S. and we often work in tangent with physicians on things where there’s an educational dx.
In terms of gender confused kids, I’m always going to support the parents, so long as there isn’t some kind of abuse/neglect going on. In a school setting, most things revolve around being aware of social isolation, preventing bullying, etc…
One family decided their little boy could dress up as a girl at home, but at school he had to dress as a boy. They were concerned about him not being old enough to deal with the social isolation/ bullying that might happen to their 9-year-old. They didn’t allow him to choose to be Betsy Ross for history day, for example. I felt that was their call to make as his parents.
In another case, a family decided to let their daughter to choose her clothes from the boy’s department. She started expressing a desire to “dress like a dad” when she was only 3. In the case of little girls, there’s usually a lot less social pressure because tomboys are much more accepted. Her parents let her keep her hair cut super short, and even wear a suit to her first communion instead of the white dress. When she reached middle-school, she decided to grow her hair long and started wearing more feminine clothes. By the time she hit high school, she was even wearing dresses now and then. I don’t know what happened in terms of her gender identity or sexual orientation, but I find it troubling that there are physicians who might have started her on male hormones. Maybe in her case, it was a phase. Maybe she’s bowed to social pressure and will come back to dressing like a man later. Who knows, but I’d sure hate to get involved in doing something like giving her hormones before she’s mature.
Re: politics in the social sciences. It’s a thing. 96% of social psychologists are left of center. I’d get more acceptance if I told everyone I was a Marxist. Ha! Seriously, I can’t tell you how many times people have been so surprised that I’m conservative, or have told me I’m their only Republican friend. The number of atheists in academia would FAR out number the general population. Part of this is because these departments are self-selecting groups. Conservatives are the most closeted people you’ll find on a university campus. I could tell you a lot of stories about things people will say when they assume everyone in the room has the same political ideas. It’s not surprising that many people in the US feel like they can’t relate to some of the current attitudes on things like gender. It’s not going to change anytime soon. These are the times. Unless conservatives start making themselves heard, going into these fields at higher rates, or calling people on their tolerance of diversity, (We’re all for it, so long as it’s not a diversity of ideas!) things will be much the same.
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If claiming that I wouldn’t smash in the heads of Jewish infants makes me Copernicus then I guess I’m some kind of genius. Grant it, if that’s what it means, there were a lot of geniuses around back then.
To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge. Maybe you should think about finding out what you don’t know.
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You stated that a change in the DSM would change your opinion on the topic.
@ 50-year-old TG person who identifies as a 6-year-old girl.
I think this would be akin to me saying that I’m going to show you a video of someone who has a more standard Male gender identity, and then showing you someone with a foot fetish.
I’m not sure though, because some of the gender identity literature has grown men who identify as “boy” because they see themselves as a younger, immature, “boyish” gender identity. So, maybe that’s an insulting thing to think that guy is probably a TG person who also has some kind of fetish or kink going on. I don’t know. It’s hard to keep up with what’s correct.
As to whether it constituted a mental disorder, yes.
PP, I find myself in that position often, as people in my liberal profession assume I am “one of us” and can speak freely. I am probably left of center overall, but hold some conservative beliefs and also expect respect in political discourse. Liberals are funny in that their biases often seem somehow nobler to them than the biases they decry. Personally, I find the generalization of negative attributes to groups of people distasteful regardless of the politics of the person doing the generalizing. I was in a thing recently over it and started to copy/paste before thinking the better of it. However, sports fans as “ugly Americans” who think themselves “more patriotic” due to their use of the National Anthem (vs. Shakespeare in the Park-goers), “simple souls” whose “lives revolve around” sports, etc, and I’m like huh? Could this BE more offensive?
But, Liberals are like Conservatives in that some of them are lovely while others are given to name-calling, and what can you do? That’s people.
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And that would apparently change your outlook on the overall issue? Or it was pointless to have ever brought it up.
Alright, since I’m not allowed to use “mental disorder” without official approval from the legal entity in the United states that politically governs the legality of the psychological classification of disorders (since apparently they own the rights to the colloquial term “disorder”)…
You win. It isn’t (politically and clinically speaking in the US) a mental disorder as of today’s date. It is merely a mental condition that is abnormal and presents itself in highly negative ways for life of the individual in that mental state and accompanied by demonstrably false notions of reality and an inability to distinguish fantasy from the physical world. It is a mental state. It is abnormal. And it is highly negative. Please tell me what word(s) would better suit that definition.
Actually, if you want to talk about real safety issues, changing tables are probably the biggest thing I can think of. So many places don’t have them and trying to change a diaper on whatever is around can be dangerous. Honestly, I think we’d be better off addressing this issue if we are talking about bathroom accessibility and safety.
They’re nice for setting stuff on when there are no hooks on the doors, too. For people who have the luxury of stalls, that is.
I am surprised that this thread has taken off this much, and has remained active for so long.
Just thinking here. Maybe this is boring, but it’s an interesting exercise for me.
Mental vs physical disorder?
The Rx for mental disorders might be counseling, therapy, maybe involve psychoactive drug treatment, some combination of the above…
For a physical disorder, the Rx might be various reassignment surgeries, hormone therapy, fixing the physical ailment or disease…
Do you now see why it might be advantageous for a TG person to be categorized as having a physical disorder? My idea of gender identity isn’t wrong, my body is wrong. It’s a little hard for a lot of us to grasp the idea that someone who appears to be perfectly healthy requires major surgery to “fix” their otherwise healthy body, especially when the suicide rate is so high even for people who have reassignment surgery. I can see why people opt to do it, just like a lot of people choose to opt for elective cosmetic surgery. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of another condition where major surgery is required on an otherwise healthy person. There’s a lot we don’t understand about what causes gender identity differences, hormonal environments in utero… on and on.
Aetna - Gender Reassignment Surgery
http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/600_699/0615.html
On the “why this isn’t a mental disorder” side of this argument, you can look at someone like Janae Kroc. From the limited information we have, she seems to be living her life, employed, parenting kids, has friends, is well liked by people that have known Matt Kroc for a long time… Contrast that to someone who’s trying to live with something like severe Schizophrenia. You’re likely going to see a lot of dysfunction in nearly every major area of life.
We both know I didn’t miss this question. I take it we’re revisiting this topic because you think you’ve come up with a ‘Gotcha!’ way to define the word abnormal?
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Just something else of interest. As I’ve said before, this is in no way an area of expertise for me - I mean, everybody on the internet is an expert!! Ha!
There is hope that someday we’ll understand some of this a lot better than we do now. I’m pretty sure they’ll find gender in my neurology and it will light up pink. Most of you will have blue. Kroc’s will be purple. Yep, they’ll all be color-coded like that.
On that DSM-V definition- since when is gender assigned at birth?
I was there when my son was born and he came out with a penis. The doctor stated he was a boy. The prior ultrasounds showed male sex characteristics, biggest clue being a penis.
That isn’t assignment at birth. Maybe its poor choice of words on the part of who ever wrote that definition, but it sounds pretty dumb to be a defining piece of reference material and say that a primary characteristic like the sex of a human being is “assigned at birth”.
SkyzykS, If his gender identity resides somewhere in his neurology, probably in many places in his brain, then his physical body wouldn’t necessarily reflect his gender. I think that’s the thinking behind the “assigned at birth.”