Apparently the DSM, all the scientists, and super geniuses say so.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what scientific consensus represents. I’ve never heard any person who actually contributes to it hold it up as infallible, a “higher knowledge”, or some type of unshakeable truth. I certainly did not get that impression from EyeDentist’s posts.
For each instance you cherry-picked where the consensus was wrong, how many times was it right?
Vocal individuals with self-described common-sense who trust their guts have their place, no doubt. They just aren’t a replacement for people who dedicate their lives to studying and diligently documenting the little details of our universe. People like that are why we are having this discussion over the internet while we enjoy our long lives with full bellies and a limitless supply of amusement that’s remarkably accessible.
Want to poke holes in the consensus of experts AND be taken seriously? You should probably start by gaining expertise. Until then, don’t get flustered when your opinions are dismissed as uniformed, because they are.
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There are a couple of issues here. The first is that yes, ED seems to worship the DSM and use it as his sole guiding compass on the topic (his own admission). The second is that despite his claims there is absolutely not overwhelming consensus on those classifications. Next is the notion that the DSM represents the science and not the political landscape. It is undeniable that politics and lobbies play a significant role. Last issue here is the notion that the DSM actually supports his position, which it doesn’t really, or at least not like he claims. It doesn’t support the claim that Krock has lesbian sex for example. Nor does it support the notion that the policy should be set for anatomical males to change with 6 year old girls.
I actually haven’t said anything bad about the DSM. What it seeks to do is noble and it is probably useful and may very well aid people in getting well. You just have to know that it isn’t the deified holy absolute result of scientific knowledge and truth, largely because it doesn’t attempt to be.
But maybe you need a degree in the definition of lesbian sex to know that it doesn’t involve a penis.
If you have male plumbing, you use the bathroom marked…MEN.
If you have female plumbing you use the bathroom marked…FEMALE.
If you insist on using a different bathroom because it makes YOU more COMFORTABLE (never mind what anybody else thinks…they are CLEARLY bigots), and you are incapable of using the restroom designed for your plumbing…have a sex change operation.
Why is this so difficult?
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Ignorant bigot. Who are you to go against the experts and all of science?
Since I haven’t actually stated my position on the bathroom deal I’d like to do that now.
There are only 2 non-silly ways to handle the situation. The first is the age old boy parts one side and girl parts the other. If in our enlightened state we decide that gender is fluid and that convention is wrong, the ONLY thing to do that doesn’t involve gross mental contortions is to have no segregation. Now, that could either take the form of exposing (literally) everyone to everything or fully enclosed individual areas. As I see it those are the only rationally consistent options. That understood I’m not imminently in favor of spending the amount of time and resources needed to achieve the last option and am against the second option.
Obviously that guy crossed the line. Have I ever mentioned that a man outside the mall showed my friend and me his penis when I was 14 or 15? We ran - it was very scary. No “special laws” are needed for this to happen.
If I were a mother at the pool with the problem UL posted my daughter would be changing at home. Actually, prude that I am, that’s pretty much what we have always done anyway. It’s not that I trust TG people - it’s that I don’t trust anybody! If PP’s aunt turned and stared at my daughter while taking off her bikini top my perv alarm bells would clang.
So it’s not about warm feelings for me, it’s about an absence of increased threat perception. A lack of feelings. I am of the opinion (this is thoughts-based) that there is already enough threat, which I largely disregard in order to function, that this will not have a significant impact, so I’m not worried.
Also, why is there no attention being paid to the issue of homosexuals in bathrooms and changing rooms, when they are the ones who by their own admission desire the genitalia of their fellow gendered-facilities users? Aren’t they the real threat to our six-year-olds?
Oh, but that would be impossible and ridiculous…
Edited for clarity.
Absolutely. I simply disagree that legislating against TG use of their preferred bathroom is the way to achieve the outcome we both desire, namely the safety of the people using those facilities.
History tells us that when ‘common sense’ and science conflict, it is usually common sense that turns out to be in error.
No, I am deferring to expert scientific opinion. On the other hand, you are claiming that your ‘common sense’ opinion is of greater value than the consensus scientific opinion of tens of thousands of scientists. In this regard, your ‘common sense’ is the intellectual equivalent of Push’s ‘gut feeling.’
And you may well be right. But to make such a claim is to put yourself on a par with the intellectual giants I mentioned–those whose heterodox ‘common sense’ or ‘gut’ opinions were correct in the face of an overwhelming consensus to the contrary.
In all likelihood, I would have been an average man. I say that because, unlike you, I do not claim myself to be the intellectual equal of Copernicus.
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Wait, aside from the absurdity of needing to be Copernicus to hold an outside the box (that isn’t actually outside the box) opinion, you are contradicting yourself.
My claims are low intelligence gut feelings (after I actually explain my common sense reasoning and you failed to rebut any of it) that put me claim wise on par with Copernicus?
“In all likelihood, I would have been an average man.”
Oh, I hear you, it just seems absurd that you think admitting you are on par with Nazi collaborators and slave traders makes you or your argument better.
Actually, my assertion is that the DSM-V serves (in the US) as the sole determining factor whether a given trait/behavior qualifies as a mental disorder. That is, with respect to psychiatric science, DSM-V represents the facts as they are currently understood.
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Is there recent literature on this? I think this is an interestingly new - possibly, to me - development on the definition of gender.
Also, I’ve always considered TG & "intersex’ to be synonymous. Further, I’ve understood TG to have two categories:
- Born with female genitalia, but manly features, beard, wide jaw, etc. (obviously reverse is true) and,
- Clearly a typical functioning individual, of one gender, who arbitrarily decides to change.
Do you think my admission that I would be an average man is more absurd than your claim to be a modern-day Copernicus?
“Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics.”
What is the difference between sex and gender?
“Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.”
ibid
Well said.
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