Fascinating article, Pangloss. And exactly what I was driving at that biology (rather than just mentation) might play a role in this. A little education can go a long way.
And the single bathroom stalls. Yep.
@ doubt the veracity and exhibitionism…
Most beaches here have an outdoor shower that’s open and used by everyone. The women’s rooms often have a long bench with hooks, opposite the sinks. The stalls are usually wet, sandy, with nowhere to put your clothes if you’re trying to change so you can head out to dinner, change kids, etc. what about that seems “exhibitionist?” You see people changing into their swimwear in the open area all the time. This is the same setup at my neighborhood association pools.
I’ve just never seen nudity at an American beach, outside or in bathrooms. Lakes and other out-of-the-way spots, yes, mostly from boats, but not in heavily peopled spots unless they’re young children. Just in gyms, and even then only rarely (and I’ve worked in gyms).
I’ve been to beaches all over America. Maybe I’m not paying attention in the bathrooms. That’s a real possibility. I don’t like public facilities and would go in and out quickly. If I’m going back into the water I won’t wash at the sinks, which gross me out. If I have to change I suffer the stalls.
I don’t mean to be attacking (though I guess it was in the disbelief of man in bathroom PLUS undressed). I have no problem with nudity; I just haven’t been exposed to it. In fact, I was telling Hockey recently that Orange is the New Black has been eye-opening for me in that I’m seeing fully adult breasts that aren’t from porn or modeling. Until that I’ve pretty much had my own or the ones posted here at TN to look at. (I’m happy to be able to say that the exposure was reassuring.)
Well, I don’t know what to tell ya. This happened to her a few years ago. She called my mother at the time because it scared her. Then she recounted the story to me. But hey, doubting the veracity of a story you heard on the internet is probably good practice. FWIW, it was the end of the day and she thought she was alone in the restroom. Her husband wasn’t within earshot because he was loading surfboards and wetsuits in the car. She assumed the man may have been watching her and thought she was alone. She wondered if he was just a voyeur or maybe someone who thought he’d rape her but was scared off. It just came to my mind because of the current “who can be in the bathroom” debate.
I see women changing clothes in the gym locker room, or at the beach, or in the neighborhood pool restrooms all the time. It’s pretty common here in CA.
On the bathroom thing- some guys are just deranged(I know, you’re both psychologists😊). Having had way too many run ins with pecker checkers in public restrooms, there is simply no way that busting down the gates to the one previously off limits place, the women’s restroom, is cool with me.
Fwiw, I could totally see that changing room scenario happening. As I said, some guys are just plain deranged.
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I really should not have phrased it the way I did - I have no reason to doubt you or yours, truly. I think I was more startled by it than genuinely disbelieving - I have no investment to motivate me questioning the report. As I think more about it people could be naked all around me much of the time and it is entirely possible that I wouldn’t see it. I am exceptionally unobservant unless my attention is focused, in which case that changes, particularly with regard to behavioral nuances. But when I’m walking around I’m very often occupied with what’s going on in my head. Please believe me when I say I’m sorry I said it. I’ll be paying close attention next time I go to a beach bathroom!
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I’ve always assumed YOU were the only naked one running around, Push, except for the nudists on Lake Travis in Austin, TX. Or maybe not Lake Travis…one of the lakes there, though.
Ha! I have my glasses for that.
I know, and it’s perfectly fine!
SHOTS FIRED!!
LOL.
Love ya Em, but man girl if you get your dander up and the mere mention of a perv using a law to his advantage…you might seem a little over reactive.
Links have been posted where this has ALREADY happened.
What say you to that?
I think concerns that straight-male perverts will somehow be able to use TG-protection laws as a ‘get out of jail free’ card allowing them carte blanche access to Women’s restrooms are very much overblown. Just as a gay man loitering in the Men’s restroom leering at other patrons could be arrested for doing so, so too could any man (or woman, for that matter) loitering and leering at patrons in the Women’s restroom. No one has a right to be intrusive in settings such as a restroom or locker room.
(Spoken as the father of a 19 y.o. daughter.)
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So you are okay with 40 year old mean using her locker room at the pool while she changes as long as he doesn’t loiter?
A 40 y.o. TG female? No, I would not have a problem with that.
Personally, I find using the M/F category on a birth certificate to be too narrow, but I also think the other extreme - The idea that gender is a continuum that is so fluid and changeable that we can no longer have separate facilities for either Male or Female without being discriminatory is not within reason either.
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Part of the debate comes from the idea that gender identity is so complex, we can’t always tell by outward appearance if someone is transgender. And as I mentioned earlier, we now have people who do not want to be categorized as either M or F.
I for one am not advocating that we abolish gendered facilities. (I am far too bashful and old-fashioned to feel comfortable sharing such facilities with women.) Rather, I am advocating that individuals use the (gendered) facility with which they identify. Which, I would point out, is what TG people have been doing for a very long time. That is, while laws codifying TG rights in this regard are of recent vintage, TG persons and their facility-predilections are not.
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I agree with you there. For me, the trouble comes up if people are now saying that how we dress/ outward appearances do not dictate gender identity, and that gender is so fluid that someone can be M one month and feel F the next, or that the idea of a gender binary is an archaic idea anyway.