[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m good this morning. I just know for sure that isn’t the case. They literally recommend I prescribe this for pregnant women if I get a consult from an OBGYN.[/quote]
You know for sure that isn’t the case? I guess you missed the link that was posted saying that some stores weren’t carrying it for a while?
I know they prescribe it for pregnant women, that’s why I said I was trying to but it for my pregnant (at the time) wife.
What are you even talking about? Stop trying to start an argument for no reason.[/quote]
That’s called a recall…and has nothing to do with some store saying they won’t carry the drug. Also, they still carried acetaminophen which is what Tylenol is.[/quote]
Classic X. Shift the discussion around, argue semantics and always try to “win.” What a joke.
Back to the actual discussion with guys capable of adult discussions like Super Saiyin and Mr Walkway.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m good this morning. I just know for sure that isn’t the case. They literally recommend I prescribe this for pregnant women if I get a consult from an OBGYN.[/quote]
You know for sure that isn’t the case? I guess you missed the link that was posted saying that some stores weren’t carrying it for a while?
I know they prescribe it for pregnant women, that’s why I said I was trying to but it for my pregnant (at the time) wife.
What are you even talking about? Stop trying to start an argument for no reason.[/quote]
That’s called a recall…and has nothing to do with some store saying they won’t carry the drug. Also, they still carried acetaminophen which is what Tylenol is.[/quote]
aka paracetamol aka N-acetyl-para-aminophenol. But I would avoid using medication while pregant as much as possible.
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
just to get back on track, while I am most certainly pro-steroids I don’t think you can ignore the negative effect on heart health.
Not saying that it had anything to do with Matt Duvall, but there’s definitely a nasty side to walking around with blood thicker than hershey’s syrup…[/quote]
Agreed. High blood pressure on a chronic level can cause serious problems. Some steroids can increase the production of blood cells…which can actually cause some lifters to give blood regularly to avoid negative results.
What I do try to point out though is that when you give info like this to a lay person…they will use it whatever way they want to reach whatever conclusion supports their own politics and values. They will ignore the fact that their lifestyle leads to many of the same effects to point out the negatives seen here…while being blind to how it is all relative.[/quote]
there’s some studies out there showing enlarged left ventricles too which is pretty scary (I’m sure you know that already Prof but other people reading might not). Fuck it though, you’ve gotta go sometime, might as well leave a big bloated muscular corpse :).
Important to make the distinction between use and abuse though I feel…
I totally agree that there is huge amounts of ignorance and scaremongering about the dangers of roids, I don’t think anyone can deny that. It’s the same for all illegal substances though. Every substance has its “reefer madness” I guess.
Are you implying that it would be unlikely heavy steroid usage over years and years, sometimes in up to TEN TO TWENTY times the intended clinical dosages, don’t cause health damaging side effects that over this lengthy amount of time won’t lend to an untimely death? You don’t think walking around with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, polycythemia, renal insufficiency, edema, ands other problems for years can’t play a part in someone dying an untimely death. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but where did you see he used “ten to twenty times” the clinical dosage? Further, you are discussing secondary effects to which a huge genetic component would be involved.
Simply put, if a bodybuilder dies, I would NOT look at “steroid use” as the primary cause. I would look at all of the other shit they were doing first.
You seem to enjoy telling me what I “imply”. Just ask.[/quote]
I was speaking GENERALLY, as you were speaking GENERALLY on steroid use!
Did I ever say Matt Duval took 'roids in ten to twenty times the clinical dosage?
It’s not all genetics! It is to a degree considering how you respond to drugs. I myself had a high hematocrit level once because of my CLINICAL use of Testim at 10 grams (the clinical dose) and had to back it down to 5 grams as per my doctor’s prescription.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation?
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
You’re right. It’s speculation. But I think some of the speculation has some merit. Have certain conditions over time doesn’t lend to a healthy, long life.
Are you implying that it would be unlikely heavy steroid usage over years and years, sometimes in up to TEN TO TWENTY times the intended clinical dosages, don’t cause health damaging side effects that over this lengthy amount of time won’t lend to an untimely death? You don’t think walking around with hypertension, hyperlipidemia, polycythemia, renal insufficiency, edema, ands other problems for years can’t play a part in someone dying an untimely death. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but where did you see he used “ten to twenty times” the clinical dosage? Further, you are discussing secondary effects to which a huge genetic component would be involved.
Simply put, if a bodybuilder dies, I would NOT look at “steroid use” as the primary cause. I would look at all of the other shit they were doing first.
You seem to enjoy telling me what I “imply”. Just ask.[/quote]
I was speaking GENERALLY, as you were speaking GENERALLY on steroid use!
Did I ever say Matt Duval took 'roids in ten to twenty times the clinical dosage?
It’s not all genetics! It is to a degree considering how you respond to drugs. I myself had a high hematocrit level once because of my CLINICAL use of Testim at 10 grams (the clinical dose) and had to back it down to 5 grams as per my doctor’s prescription. [/quote]
Holy crap, dude.
You wrote this:
To this, the answer is NO, that is not what I was implying. I think I spelled out pretty well what my point was without anyone needing to ask what I was implying…but if you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
You’re right. It’s speculation. But I think some of the speculation has some merit. Have certain conditions over time doesn’t lend to a healthy, long life.
I get what you’re saying though. [/quote]
Yep, I have no problems with that.
However, often these “discussions” reduce to what “common sense” tells us and that I guess screams in this case that taking all those chemicals at so high dosages over such a long time “simply can’t be good for you”. Common sense can be tricky, though.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.[/quote]
not much? There was millions of studies showing harm from roids there.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.[/quote]
not much? There was millions of studies showing harm from roids there.
You’re a hard man to please IS[/quote]
Huh? You meant a different site than the one that ends with “log”.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.[/quote]
not much? There was millions of studies showing harm from roids there.
You’re a hard man to please IS[/quote]
Huh? You meant a different site than the one that ends with “log”.[/quote]
na that’s the one, I thought there was loads of studies about the dangers of roids but looking a little closer it appears that a lot are just articles and not studies…
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.[/quote]
not much? There was millions of studies showing harm from roids there.
You’re a hard man to please IS[/quote]
Huh? You meant a different site than the one that ends with “log”.[/quote]
na that’s the one, I thought there was loads of studies about the dangers of roids but looking a little closer it appears that a lot are just articles and not studies…
[/quote]
Its not easy to get testbunnies for clinical trials on overdosing drugs and see where it starts to be most harmful…
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
not that it’s my business, but MD had a serious painkiller addiction, his cause of death has been ruled as “overdose”[/quote]
If this is true, damage to internal organs from pain killers would hit number two on my list of “things that are most dangerous in bodybuilding”…right after “diuretics”. You push your body to the max every single week (not to mention using pain meds for injections as a possibility) and you realize that use of pain meds is actually pretty common in bodybuilding.
Tylenol can cause kidney damage long before steroids do.[/quote]
in the clinical setting, we worry FAR more about Liver toxicity with tylenol, we never see any kidney damage from tylenol OD>
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I wonder how anyone can claim things either way.
How many studies have people done with the super-enhanced pro BBers we are talking about with their cocktails of different pharma? Any decent studies or are we left with anecdotal stories and wild guessing/extrapolation? [/quote]
I won’t be allowed to link the site but google “roids gone wrong” and check the fourth or so entry down[/quote]
Not much, but better than nothing. The entry called “Anabolic steroids almost kill bodybuilder pro during operation” is interesting 'coz it tries to explain the development of heart problems. Not sure how reliable the claims are though.[/quote]
not much? There was millions of studies showing harm from roids there.
You’re a hard man to please IS[/quote]
Huh? You meant a different site than the one that ends with “log”.[/quote]
na that’s the one, I thought there was loads of studies about the dangers of roids but looking a little closer it appears that a lot are just articles and not studies…
[/quote]
Its not easy to get testbunnies for clinical trials on overdosing drugs and see where it starts to be most harmful…[/quote]
Its not easy to get testbunnies for clinical trials on overdosing drugs and see where it starts to be most harmful…[/quote]
No, its not ethical. They wouldn’t do the study if 200+ volunteers showed up on their doorstep today willing to extreme overdose on hormones. They are never going to do the study because you don’t have to be a scientist to know the optimal is about what we produce and any terrific amounts over (what the pros use) are going to cause problems.
