The Perfect Body Fat Percentage: (by Shelby Starnes, 3/14/2011)
Summary:
Endomorphs stay between 10-15% body fat
Ectomorphs stay between 8-12% body fat
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Now, not only is when you eat important, but when you DON’T eat is important also. When you skip breakfast, you have no means of blunting the already high levels of cortisol floating around in your body. Cortisol is a powerful catabolic hormone which increases blood glucose, prevents bodyfat loss in stubborn areas, causes large increases in catecholamines, and takes glucose and other nutrients from your muscle cells and liver for energy. I don’t have to tell you that that isn’t good for a bodybuilder. Also, as the body is now starving for 12+ hours, it sees the event as a significant stressor, and maintains a stress response.
[/quote]
How does this relate to AM fasted cardio (in any form)?
I understand the idea of why (for some) to do AM fasted cardio, but at first glance it would seem detrimental based on what you say above. Is there some window between that fasted/semi-fasted state you’re in shortly after waking up and ‘refueling’ after AM cardio (like how long ‘skipping breakfast’ is defined)?
Is what you wrote above negligible assuming you wake up, get in, get out, and eat?
[EDIT: I didn’t see the similar question above before I posted this]
I sent Martin Berkhan this thread on Facebook and asked him if he had any opinion on it. Here is his reply:
[quote]Martin Berkhan wrote:
No, but you can speak for me, if you want. Quote me:
I would just like to clarify one thing. “$1500/month” gives the impression that I would charge $4500 to work with someone for three months, which is not the case. Most people pay me a one-time fee of $795 for a one-week consult and they know exactly what to do over the next few months to reach their goal - that’s $795 in total. The $1500/month option is for the first month only, after which is the price is greatly reduced. This option is no longer available for the time being.
Everyone one of my clients have been very pleased so far and they often tell me that they consider themselves much wiser after the process; my materials contain information that will benefit them in the long-term, I don’t just give them a training routine and a meal plan. Furthermore, I do an absolute minimum of advertising for my consultation services and most of my clients come by word of mouth. They keep coming back and I stay quite busy that way.
Now if you ask me, I would have gladly payed someone $795 to cut through the bullshit back when I thought “I knew it all” by reading on forums and being - by all objective standards - knowledgeable about nutrition even back then, in my earlier years of training and dieting. That opportunity would have saved tremendous amounts of time and pain. I was a fast learner, but theoretical knowledge and practical application thereof are almost two different skills.
This is the only thing I wanted to say on the issue.
[/quote]
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Here is a way to think about it that may help. Food itself is a pharmaceutical. Everything you eat, and any time you eat it, you elicit a powerful hormonal and physiological response. What you eat, when you eat it, and how many times you eat are all very important variables. Every time you introduce food, drug, or foreign object into your body, you push the closed biological system that is your body OUT of homeostasis (dynamic equilibrium for you chemistry people). Your body then spends resources in the form of energy and hormones to store and burn the food you just ingested to return your body to equilibrium. Ok, so thats a little background to get the thinking in the right plane.
Now, not only is when you eat important, but when you DON’T eat is important also. When you skip breakfast, you have no means of blunting the already high levels of cortisol floating around in your body. Cortisol is a powerful catabolic hormone which increases blood glucose, prevents bodyfat loss in stubborn areas, causes large increases in catecholamines, and takes glucose and other nutrients from your muscle cells and liver for energy. I don’t have to tell you that that isn’t good for a bodybuilder. Also, as the body is now starving for 12+ hours, it sees the event as a significant stressor, and maintains a stress response. Catecholamines are high, mineralocorticoids are high, ( which lead to water retention). Glucagon is also high, which is a good thing in a fat loss diet, but it has a tendency to run into an issue at a certain bodyfat level in dealing with the cortisol and mineralocorticoids. Puffiness and “thick skin” are often seen due to this interaction and is one reason why many folks who try IF never can seem to break through the 10% barrier. In addition, I do not believe the body can partition nutrients as efficiently. It is likely that the body will be less efficient due to the hypercortisolemia, higher blood glucose, and mild to moderate insulin resistance that would entail. More carbs would be diverted to de novo lipogenesis instead of being stored as glycogen, leading to the “flat muscle” look.
In order to look your best, you need full muscle bellies (low cortisol, timely and frequent insulin), thin skin (low mineralocorticoids), combined with a sizable portion of time each day where glucagon and the SNS does dominate to release FA for energy. What I believe is detrimental is leaving that stress response running rampant in the body through the day. If anything, if you are going to IF it makes MUCH more sense physiologically to eat the first part of the day and fast through the end. Cortisol is much lower at the end of the day, many of these concerns would be addressed. Its a tricky thing for many of us (obviously not ectos…as you can see), which is why there is all this confusion and not very many big, ripped people walking the earth.
[/quote]
Interesting. So Modok, what about fasted cardio? What’s the difference between say, 12 hours of no food, waking up and doing fasted cardio, then eating, vs just extending your overnight fast by 4 or 5 hours (16-17 total hours) if all you do is sit at a desk all day? In both case, you have stressors to the body (cardio vs no food for 4 hrs). Isn’t that essentially the same?
It also seems by your comment on cortisol, that IF may be better implemented as a night-time fast (eg 4 PM to 8 AM vs 8 PM to 12 PM).
Interested to hear your thoughts on those two comments. Thanks!
[/quote]
You are extending your fast by 4-5 hours in the latter scenario and only 1 hour in the former. Once you eat, cortisol levels begin to drop, and your bodies parasympathetic NS takes over.
Yes, I mentioned in the long post that fasting through dinner would be much better than fasting through breakfast when taking these things into account.
[/quote]
Perhaps a bit off topic but, would this be unavoidable when on a cut or low carb?
[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
But back to Martin’s clients, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THEIR GOALS WERE, A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT THAT LEAN SKINNY LOOK.
[/quote]
Can we keep this shit off T-Nation please?
Thanks.[/quote]
best comment on this thread. By far.
seriously we need to stop with this IF nut-hugging i liked better last week when we would idolize 5/3/1 and Starting Strength
T-Nation is becoming corrupt with skinny bastards.
^
The discussion went wrong when people get way too defensive.
Wow…there is way too much hate in this thread. This shit is actually getting fucking ridiculous.
This is a straight up pissing contest, and towards the last few posts it’s become increasingly hostile towards “skinny bastards”.
I’m 5’8 and I’ve been ~190lbs at my height with a bodyfat no higher than 16-17 percentish. I competed in USAPL and sure, I was relatively strong then…I truthfully was not very happy/comfortable with the way I looked. I’m around 155lbs now at an easy 10% bodyfat…if not lower, I’m being pretty conservative. Am I as strong, of course not…it was months worth of “dieting”. Do I get WAYYYY more compliments on my appearance (although this shouldn’t be THAT important)? Yes, I do. And minus the compliments, I personally feel much better about my body as of now.
I feel that I’m making a decent climb towards the 165lb-170lb mark and maintaining my leanness. That is MY goal…how does that make me a “pussy”, or bitch or skinny bastard or whatever other derogatory childish remark?
…I personally know I’m capable of gaining large amounts of weight at the expensive of TOO MUCH fat…and I know the strength levels and benchmarks I’ve attained were satisfactory to me. I don’t look at anyone else on this board who is carrying what I consider to be undesirable levels of bodyfat…and basically criticize them or tell them they suck at attaining their goals. Their goals are probably a lot different from mine.
Everyone needs to just accept the fact that their are pros and cons to any and all styles of training, schedules of eating, macro breakdowns, food choices, etc…and it can be pretty individual. I do believe that most of the big guys who have posted on here realize the previous statement I have just made… But, the last few posts that I’m reading on here are getting a bit retarded to me.
In fact…the ones with the biggest mouths and nastiest comments are really the ones who need to keep them shut…at 155lb I’m probably stronger than you in terms of relative strength and I don’t even start eating until 6pm…AFTER I train…come at me brah. 
[quote]fd24 wrote:
[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
But back to Martin’s clients, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THEIR GOALS WERE, A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT THAT LEAN SKINNY LOOK.
[/quote]
Can we keep this shit off T-Nation please?
Thanks.[/quote]
At 15% bf maybe you should try to attain that lean look instead of criticizing it. Just saying. [/quote]
WTF?
Do you have some phobia about fat or something? Having 15% BF is NOT FAT. Especially if said person is carrying a large amount of lean mass. An overweight sedentary guy with baby muscles is fat. Someone 200lbs with 15% BF and 170lbs lean mass is definitely not in the same league. Heck X could probably bicep curl your body weight easily.
FWIW, I am not going to knock anyone’s goals here, but I usually maintain/bulk at around 12-15% of BF (mirror estimate). I have cut hard and dry right down to 6-8% BF, but I personally find that I feel like shit when I do that.
Sure the pictures come out a little nicer, but strength (and lifts) go down by a fair amount, recovery is slower, my sleep sucks (have to wake up a couple times through the night), calorie counting and there’s constant hunger which leads to me generally not being all that fun to be around.
Not to mention I study some martial arts through the weak and sparring while at 7% BF takes a lot out of you, especially if you get a kick to the sides.
I don’t know about you, but I’m in this game because I like lifting heavy shit, and because I like to challenge myself while looks come a distant third. Sure ripping off your shirt and showing off your six down on the beach will bring the chixxxx…but its not worth that IMO.
[quote]165StateChamp wrote:
I sent Martin Berkhan this thread on Facebook and asked him if he had any opinion on it. Here is his reply:
[quote]Martin Berkhan wrote:
No, but you can speak for me, if you want. Quote me:
I would just like to clarify one thing. “$1500/month” gives the impression that I would charge $4500 to work with someone for three months, which is not the case. Most people pay me a one-time fee of $795 for a one-week consult and they know exactly what to do over the next few months to reach their goal - that’s $795 in total. The $1500/month option is for the first month only, after which is the price is greatly reduced. This option is no longer available for the time being.
Everyone one of my clients have been very pleased so far and they often tell me that they consider themselves much wiser after the process; my materials contain information that will benefit them in the long-term, I don’t just give them a training routine and a meal plan. Furthermore, I do an absolute minimum of advertising for my consultation services and most of my clients come by word of mouth. They keep coming back and I stay quite busy that way.
Now if you ask me, I would have gladly payed someone $795 to cut through the bullshit back when I thought “I knew it all” by reading on forums and being - by all objective standards - knowledgeable about nutrition even back then, in my earlier years of training and dieting. That opportunity would have saved tremendous amounts of time and pain. I was a fast learner, but theoretical knowledge and practical application thereof are almost two different skills.
This is the only thing I wanted to say on the issue.
[/quote][/quote]
That’s a very articulate and gentlemanly response.
Good for him, everyone needs money. Some will pay, others cannot (will not) and could still benefit from FREE articles on his website if they wanted. I bet there’s plenty of business types who’d otherwise spend that 1500 on a weekend’s whore and cocaine. 1 weekend ruined: skinny with sickabs. A fair trade?
I dont believe for one second that Intermittent fasting in any way increases cortisol in the morning period (during fasting). Studies have not shown this. Please back up statements with source or references.
At the end of the day, each to their own. It’s beneficial to give new nutritional methods a go. I’ve been on 7 meals a day and played around with macros, been on low fat (terrible for my joints), anabolic diet (had nice results, but unfortunately it elevated my cholesterol so I stopped after 4 months); and leangains - which for me, personally, has been phenominal.
I’ve had increased strength, rapid fat reduction, increased lean body mass, and increased focus and energy during the morning. It’s simple to follow and allows me to follow a strict high protein diet with clean sources of carbs and fat without the cravings for bad food.
Here is some info on cortisol from Martins website - references can be found there.
- Myth: Fasting increases cortisol.
Truth
Cortisol is a steroid hormone that maintains blood pressure, regulates the immune system and helps break down proteins, glucose and lipids. It’s a hormone that’s gotten quite a bad rep in the fitness and health community but we have it for a reason. The morning peak in cortisol makes us get out of bed and get going. A blunted morning cortisol peak is associated with lethargy and depression.
Cortisol is elevated during exercise, which helps mobilize fats, increase performance and experience euphoria after and during workouts. Trying to suppress acute elevations of cortisol during exercise, or the normal diurnal rhythm, is foolish. Chronically elevated levels of cortisol, resulting from psychological and/or physiological stress, is another thing and unquestionably bad for your health; it increases protein breakdown, appetite and may lead to depression.
Short-term fasting has no effect on average cortisol levels and this is an area that has been extensively studied in the context of Ramadan fasting. Cortisol typically follows a diurnal variation, which means that its levels peak in the morning at around 8 a.m. and decline in the evenings. What changes during Ramadan is simply the cortisol rhythm, average levels across 24 hours remain unchanged.
In one Ramadan study on rugby players, subjects lost fat and retained muscle very well. And they did despite training in a dehydrated state, without pre-workout or post-workout protein intake, and with a lower protein intake overall nonetheless. Quoting directly from the paper:
“Body mass decreased significantly and progressively over the 4-week period; fat was lost, but lean tissue was conserved…”
“…Plasma urea concentrations actually decreased during Ramadan, supporting the view that there was no increase of endogenous protein metabolism to compensate for the decreased protein intake.”
In one study on intermittent fasting, the fasting group even saw “significant decrease in concentrations of cortisol.” However, this study should be taken with a grain of salt as it had some flaws in study design.
In conclusion, the belief that fasting increases cortisol, which then might cause all kinds of mischief such as muscle loss, has no scientific basis whatsoever.
Origin
Prolonged fasting or severe calorie restriction causes elevated baseline levels of cortisol. This occurs in conjunction with depletion of liver glycogen, as cortisol speeds up DNG, which is necessary to maintain blood sugar in absence of dietary carbs, protein, or stored glycogen. Again, it seems someone looked at what happens during starvation and took that to mean that short-term fasting is bad.
[quote]facko wrote:
This is a straight up pissing contest, and towards the last few posts it’s become increasingly hostile towards “skinny bastards”.
Do I get WAYYYY more compliments on my appearance (although this shouldn’t be THAT important)? Yes, I do. And minus the compliments, I personally feel much better about my body as of now.
I feel that I’m making a decent climb towards the 165lb-170lb mark and maintaining my leanness. That is MY goal…how does that make me a “pussy”, or bitch or skinny bastard or whatever other derogatory childish remark?
…I personally know I’m capable of gaining large amounts of weight at the expensive of TOO MUCH fat…and I know the strength levels and benchmarks I’ve attained were satisfactory to me. I don’t look at anyone else on this board who is carrying what I consider to be undesirable levels of bodyfat…and basically criticize them or tell them they suck at attaining their goals. Their goals are probably a lot different from mine.
[/quote]
This mirrors my experiences too.
This thread has gone from a cost / benefit discussion of Martins services that people use to get lean to a bunch of people defending their “bulking” methods. X did sort of derail this thread talking about bulking. I’ve also been up at 215, but never been below 10 % BF. This is my goal right now. It’s not a final goal. Probably for many of us on this site, getting lean is just a way-station on the path towards getting bigger again. I don’t see why it’s such a problem to want to “get abs”.
Geez, this is the nutrition forum, not the BB forum. You’d think we can talk about getting lean here of all places.
MODOK, good post.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
This is a straight up pissing contest, and towards the last few posts it’s become increasingly hostile towards “skinny bastards”.
Do I get WAYYYY more compliments on my appearance (although this shouldn’t be THAT important)? Yes, I do. And minus the compliments, I personally feel much better about my body as of now.
I feel that I’m making a decent climb towards the 165lb-170lb mark and maintaining my leanness. That is MY goal…how does that make me a “pussy”, or bitch or skinny bastard or whatever other derogatory childish remark?
…I personally know I’m capable of gaining large amounts of weight at the expensive of TOO MUCH fat…and I know the strength levels and benchmarks I’ve attained were satisfactory to me. I don’t look at anyone else on this board who is carrying what I consider to be undesirable levels of bodyfat…and basically criticize them or tell them they suck at attaining their goals. Their goals are probably a lot different from mine.
[/quote]
This mirrors my experiences too.
This thread has gone from a cost / benefit discussion of Martins services that people use to get lean to a bunch of people defending their “bulking” methods. X did sort of derail this thread talking about bulking. I’ve also been up at 215, but never been below 10 % BF. This is my goal right now. It’s not a final goal. Probably for many of us on this site, getting lean is just a way-station on the path towards getting bigger again. I don’t see why it’s such a problem to want to “get abs”.
Geez, this is the nutrition forum, not the BB forum. You’d think we can talk about getting lean here of all places. [/quote]
You don’t seem to be following the discussion very closely at all.
Who has a problem with people getting abs?
Where are those posts at?
Modok, Thanks for the detailed post. It’ll take me some time for me to get through that. I’m personally finding IF working well for me now, although I’m always open to trying things (one reason I switched from frequent eating to IF).
One thing to point out about Alan Aragon is that he’s now retracted his opinion that skipping breakfast is not too brilliant.
From one of the many unpostable links:
The more research I review, the more I’ve come to find out how well-adapted the human species is to prolonged periods of zero food. There are several variants of IF, some are less conducive to typical recomp goals than others. I have come to appreciate many of the virtues of the incarnation of IF that Martin Berkhan has developed. In the past I have been highly critical of lower meal frequency, but much of that was a product of being stuck in the dogma of the mainstream curriculum. None of the ‘stoking of the metabolic fire’ stuff has been solidly supported by research. Now, whether IF has any special effects remains anecdotal. I will concede that I was incorrect about my former negatively slanted stance towards IF. "
- Alan Aragon
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Here is a way to think about it that may help. Food itself is a pharmaceutical. Everything you eat, and any time you eat it, you elicit a powerful hormonal and physiological response. What you eat, when you eat it, and how many times you eat are all very important variables. Every time you introduce food, drug, or foreign object into your body, you push the closed biological system that is your body OUT of homeostasis (dynamic equilibrium for you chemistry people). Your body then spends resources in the form of energy and hormones to store and burn the food you just ingested to return your body to equilibrium. Ok, so thats a little background to get the thinking in the right plane.
Now, not only is when you eat important, but when you DON’T eat is important also. When you skip breakfast, you have no means of blunting the already high levels of cortisol floating around in your body. Cortisol is a powerful catabolic hormone which increases blood glucose, prevents bodyfat loss in stubborn areas, causes large increases in catecholamines, and takes glucose and other nutrients from your muscle cells and liver for energy. I don’t have to tell you that that isn’t good for a bodybuilder. Also, as the body is now starving for 12+ hours, it sees the event as a significant stressor, and maintains a stress response. Catecholamines are high, mineralocorticoids are high, ( which lead to water retention). Glucagon is also high, which is a good thing in a fat loss diet, but it has a tendency to run into an issue at a certain bodyfat level in dealing with the cortisol and mineralocorticoids. Puffiness and “thick skin” are often seen due to this interaction and is one reason why many folks who try IF never can seem to break through the 10% barrier. In addition, I do not believe the body can partition nutrients as efficiently. It is likely that the body will be less efficient due to the hypercortisolemia, higher blood glucose, and mild to moderate insulin resistance that would entail. More carbs would be diverted to de novo lipogenesis instead of being stored as glycogen, leading to the “flat muscle” look.
In order to look your best, you need full muscle bellies (low cortisol, timely and frequent insulin), thin skin (low mineralocorticoids), combined with a sizable portion of time each day where glucagon and the SNS does dominate to release FA for energy. What I believe is detrimental is leaving that stress response running rampant in the body through the day. If anything, if you are going to IF it makes MUCH more sense physiologically to eat the first part of the day and fast through the end. Cortisol is much lower at the end of the day, many of these concerns would be addressed. Its a tricky thing for many of us (obviously not ectos…as you can see), which is why there is all this confusion and not very many big, ripped people walking the earth.
[/quote]
It’s interesting that you actually mention becoming insulin resistant, when the buzz is that fasting is supposed to keep you insulin sensitive.
You are considering IF a stressor, but I’d be interested to know if the body adapts to a feeding schedule. Certainly in my experience hunger does. Once Iâ??ve gotten used to it, I don’t get hungry until the afternoon. If the hormonal triggers for hunger adapt to short regular fasting, is it not possible cortisol does too? Martin seems to claim it does. Essentially that your body knows it isn’t starving and is going to be getting food later in the day.
It at least would seem unfair to draw conclusions from a study based on people used to eating throughout the day and then suddenly fasting outside of their normal schedule.
Thanks for taking the time to humor me, I’m not a nutritionist or a biological chemist.
For the record, I’ve had pretty good success doing it so far, but I started pretty pudgy.
According to the calipers (measuring myself) I’ve gone from 235 @26% BF to 218 @18% (as of a few days ago) which would technically be an increase in lean body mass of about 4 pounds (according to the electronic measure I went from 28 to 22%). Though like I said, some of that success could be due to starting out pretty fat and it hasn’t been exceptionally quick (8 months or so though I wasn’t IFing for several months in there). I’m not to a low enough % to know what that struggle might be like and how that may change my body chemistry.
And no I don’t want to end up with thick skin or flat muscles. Hah!
[quote]facko wrote:
Do I get WAYYYY more compliments on my appearance (although this shouldn’t be THAT important)? Yes, I do.[/quote]
Justin Bieber probably gets compliments too:)
Thanks for the informative post MODAK.
OK, two things I feel I can contribute to this thread regarding Ramadan:
-
Muslims actually eat breakfast during Ramadan at 5am (they call it ifhtar). So consider that there is an early morning meal to drop cortisol levels.
-
Typically the month of Ramadan is when muslims are most sluggish and generally slow with most of them half asleep by noon. In addition, majority of Muslim athletes who compete in sporting events around Ramadan period do not fast (you can “replace” the days where you don’t fast on a later date).
Source: I live in a Muslim nation (although am not a Muslim). I see this every year.
[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
[quote]solidkhalid wrote:
[quote]fd24 wrote:
But back to Martin’s clients, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THEIR GOALS WERE, A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT THAT LEAN SKINNY LOOK.
[/quote]
Can we keep this shit off T-Nation please?
Thanks.[/quote]
At 15% bf maybe you should try to attain that lean look instead of criticizing it. Just saying. [/quote]
WTF?
Do you have some phobia about fat or something? Having 15% BF is NOT FAT. Especially if said person is carrying a large amount of lean mass. An overweight sedentary guy with baby muscles is fat. Someone 200lbs with 15% BF and 170lbs lean mass is definitely not in the same league. Heck X could probably bicep curl your body weight easily.
FWIW, I am not going to knock anyone’s goals here, but I usually maintain/bulk at around 12-15% of BF (mirror estimate). I have cut hard and dry right down to 6-8% BF, but I personally find that I feel like shit when I do that.
Sure the pictures come out a little nicer, but strength (and lifts) go down by a fair amount, recovery is slower, my sleep sucks (have to wake up a couple times through the night), calorie counting and there’s constant hunger which leads to me generally not being all that fun to be around.
Not to mention I study some martial arts through the weak and sparring while at 7% BF takes a lot out of you, especially if you get a kick to the sides.
I don’t know about you, but I’m in this game because I like lifting heavy shit, and because I like to challenge myself while looks come a distant third. Sure ripping off your shirt and showing off your six down on the beach will bring the chixxxx…but its not worth that IMO.[/quote]
I can second a lot of what was said here… I feel much stronger, healthier, better overall now then I was when I was sub 10% BF.
My BF increase came from an excess of quality food choices. I didn’t binge on cookies, sodas, ice cream etc… in the hope of that shit building muscle.
You jump on Prof X for saying he doesn’t think people could have different goals, but then tell me what I should be doing?
I hate hypocrites.