Marriage: Still Worth It?

Off Topic
101

[quote]Khronos wrote:
Generally speaking people who have a happy marriage/good relationship aren’t interested in pursuing new relationships. But if one’s needs aren’t being met in their current relationship that’s when meeting someone who is interested in meeting those needs becomes attractive. [/quote]

Did you just try to justify sleeping around? If the needs aren’t being met, I thought the idea of marriage was to work on it. If that doesn’t work, then try the divorce. At what point does sleeping with the coworkers pop into it?

[quote]
Women tend to initiate divorce more because they tend to be the one who tries the hardest to maintain the relationship. Most guys tend to see their spouse’s efforts at maintaining the relationship/marriage as “nagging”. When the wife stops nagging the husband starts to think that the wife must have gotten over all the stuff she had previously been nagging him about. [/quote]

Ah, nagging equals “trying to work on the marriage”. Got it. Are you giving us reasons to avoid marriage? If nagging is evidence of women trying harder to keep marriages together, are you confused as to why that doesn’t work? So, in effect, divorces are still mostly the fault of most women in relationships?

I missed your point with most of this.

102

Did you know that if a women cheats on you, she’s more likely to get pregnant by the other guy she’s cheating with. Somthing about sperm competition and the woman looking for a guy with better DNA. I saw it on TLC a few years ago.

103

If you are planning to get married, read this book and insist that your future spouse read it also; and if you are married and think your marriage is not perfect, read this book; and if you are married and think your marriage is perfect read this book, OK everybody should read this book.

At least read some book before you make a life changing decision (getting married, picking a mate, getting divorced, stresing yourself sick over how your life or marriage sucks…).

It is amazing how many people go through life uninformed about the most important things, when there is a lot of good information readily available. Educate yourself, whether in fitness and nutrition, or any and all other aspects of life.

Lies at the Altar: The Truth About Great Marriages by Robin L. Smith

104

[quote]Jinx Me wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Only marry if your spouse outearns you. Period.

jp_dubya wrote:
that advice is gold. pure gold

Unfortunately, the logical implications of everyone following that advice are quite bleak.
Bullshit. In every marriage, 1/2 the participating parties follow this plan. snicker

Ummmm, I think you missed the point that if EVERYONE would only marry someone who outearns them, no one would be getting married, because everyone who earns more than you would never marry you if they followed that rule…[/quote]

I’m pretty sure the guy who made the original comment was saying that GUYS should only marry someone who outearns them. At least in this day and age.

105

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Did you just try to justify sleeping around? If the needs aren’t being met, I thought the idea of marriage was to work on it. If that doesn’t work, then try the divorce. At what point does sleeping with the coworkers pop into it?[/quote]

No. I am trying to demonstrate that generally speaking when a marriage falls apart causality exists. Unless you happened to marry a psycho something happened that made the marriage unacceptable to at least one of the partners.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ah, nagging equals “trying to work on the marriage”. Got it. Are you giving us reasons to avoid marriage? If nagging is evidence of women trying harder to keep marriages together, are you confused as to why that doesn’t work? So, in effect, divorces are still mostly the fault of most women in relationships?.[/quote]

That depends on how you define nagging.

If your wife tells you she’s unhappy about something is that wrong? What if it’s something you don’t think she should be unhappy about? Does the inability of the two of you to agree on the subject mean your wife is going to forget about it? Do you really think leaving something as important as your spouse’s happiness unresolved is the way to build a good relationship?

Notice I haven’t made any value judgements or stipulated what should define happiness. The fact is “happiness” is different for everybody. But you better believe that if you want to have a good marriage your spouse’s happiness should be you’re number one priority.

That’s not to say everyone has to go around happy all the time to make a marriage work, but your spouse has to believe that you do care about her happiness or else the marriage will indeed suffer.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
a bunch of stuff about women cheating on men and men cheating on women and how this all boils down to the OPINION that this is why women initiate divorce first

I missed your point with most of this.[/quote]

Statistics can be about as meaningful as my opinion, so yeah I might have been talking out of my arse a bit, but anicdotally speaking I know more guys who’s wives dropped the bomb on them that they didn’t love them anymore than I do any other divorce situation.

The other divorcing group I’ve seen the most of are the guy’s who get tired of dealing with all the baggage with their wives so they decided to trade them in for a newer model.

That generally seems to happen after the guy has had some success in life and is tired of dealing with the fallout from what it took to get there.

106

Khronos,
you have very good points, I am glad I have read your post. It has really opened up my eyes to what is going on and what I could have done different/ will do different. Those that are not married and those that are. What he says is very valid. Being stressed at work and stress from a new baby all contributed to my slacking.

I do wish that my wife instead of nagging said…He look we are going down a path that I don’t like you need to stop and do the things, you used to do. That and tell me to go to a counselor with her, so I can see it. You never actually see what is going on until you step back and then it hits you like a ton of bricks.

Jaso

107

Surely it’s a bit unfair to compare that scenario to all marriages? Not all women are gold digging bitches who are out to get as much as possible through divorce… Maybe it’s just me being old-fashioned (at 19!!), but I don’t agree with divorce and 2nd or even 3rd marriages. If you can’t sort out something like a sex drive problem with your partner then you probably shouldn’t be in the marriage in the first place!

Surely the whole point is to work through problems? Relationships are hard work, there’s no denying it but that’s no reason to run off at the first sign of trouble.
Personally, if I got married and there was some problem that really couldn’t be solved so it was almost inevitable to end in divorce, I wouldn’t make it any worse than it already was by demanding half of whatever we owned.

I’d take whatever I’d paid for or a proportion that mirrored my contribution in the first place. I can’t see what makes women think that if they marry a highly-paid guy they deserve half of whatever they had together at the end; he probably paid for most of it in the outset!
Honestly, I’m not even going to have a joint bank account when I begin living with someone or get married.

What he’s earned is his, what I’ve earned is mine. It’s too easy to lose track of who’s spent what with a joint account and problems of trust can undoubtedly arise as a result. Of course this isn’t the case with all couples but it can happen.

I think it’s a real shame that so many men think they have to resort to pre-nups to make sure women don’t take more than their fair share if the relationship ends. It’s a real shame that’s what it’s come to…I guess you just gotta make sure you find the right woman!

108

[quote]Khronos wrote:

If your wife tells you she’s unhappy about something is that wrong? What if it’s something you don’t think she should be unhappy about? Does the inability of the two of you to agree on the subject mean your wife is going to forget about it? Do you really think leaving something as important as your spouse’s happiness unresolved is the way to build a good relationship?[/quote]

I think you are oversimplifying human reaction. Very rarely is one person going to spell out, “I am unhappy about something and would like to work it out”. That wouldn’t even qualify as “nagging”. What is more likely to happen is an increase in random fights about absolutely nothing ranging from taking the trash out to how mad the wife is that the husband glanced at a passing ass for more than 2 seconds. It then escalates until there is nothing but fighting or they avoid each other. Is it ever as black and white as what you stated? Only one person’s fault? Doubtful.

[quote]
Notice I haven’t made any value judgements or stipulated what should define happiness. The fact is “happiness” is different for everybody. But you better believe that if you want to have a good marriage your spouse’s happiness should be you’re number one priority. [/quote]

This is probably why people shouldn’t jump into marriages before they have been with/dated someone long enough for the facade to wear off. I’m not married and don’t even think I want to be at this point. I know far too many people who have been screwed around in their relationships. So much so that I am beginning to doubt whether there are many true “happy marriages” when it comes to anyone under the age of 40. I blame society for that as a whole. It is now basically “cool” to cheat on your husband or wife as long as you don’t get caught. With so many people playing, why even jump in the game?

[quote]
That’s not to say everyone has to go around happy all the time to make a marriage work, but your spouse has to believe that you do care about her happiness or else the marriage will indeed suffer.[/quote]

What happens if your own happiness suffers from trying so hard to make someone else happy?

This is another reason I wouldn’t get married without a pre-nupt. I didn’t work hard to reach a certain level in my life to have it all taken away from me based on possible relationship issues. the legal system has simply made it way too easy. It is almost better to be POOR and expect a happy marriage than it is to have some money in the bank and a decent career and then expect for all of that “happiness” to shine through. There are far too many women out there who will play games long enough to get co-signed on your bank account. For ONCE I would like to hear of a divorce where the wife DIDN’T take half of what the husband owns.

It almost isn’t worth the risk now if you have any success at all. Either marry the girl you first screwed as a senior in high school or expect trouble.

109

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Very rarely is one person going to spell out, “I am unhappy about something and would like to work it out”.

I think this is probably the biggest reason marriages fail so much. People don’t communicate openly; instead they become defensive and communicate passive aggressively, and bitterness and resentment builds up.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What happens if your own happiness suffers from trying so hard to make someone else happy?

Yeah, what then? Sure people can’t be totally selfish and expect a marriage to work. But just giving yourself over to making it work at ALL costs is retarded. That’s why, like Prof said, you’ve got to choose your spouse carefully. Otherwise you may find yourself doing a helluva lot of work and still not happy.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…I wouldn’t get married without a pre-nupt. I didn’t work hard to reach a certain level in my life to have it all taken away from me based on possible relationship issues. the legal system has simply made it way too easy…For ONCE I would like to hear of a divorce where the wife DIDN’T take half of what the husband owns.

I’m not arguing this, but I’d like to introduce another perspective. Men need to really examine what they expect from a woman when they marry her. I have known men (mostly from older generations, but still), who have married women and expected them to be housewives and full-time moms, but have become bitter and resentful that their wife isn’t earning enough. Meanwhile, the husband is working hard at his career, but treats the kids and housework as ‘women’s work’ and just does his own thing.

I’m not saying all men do this, not even close. But I’ve seen it. When the divorce ensues, it never fails that the man feels he’s been fleeced. My own parents divorced after 30 years, after my mother worked part-time and brought up the kids and kept the house with virtually no help at all. If not for the parenting, she could have developed a pretty solid career. She was constantly taking courses trying to increase her earning potential, and was busy as hell all the time, between work, kids, housework and upgrading her skills. I know for a fact she did not get even close to half of what he’s worth (he’s a lawyer and knows how to protect himself). He still hates her for getting anything at all.

Meanwhile, for 30 years she singlehandedly raised his kids and supported his life, spent weekends and evenings alone while he went out with army friends, served his guests when he brought them home without warning, and dealt with his issues. She worked her ass off to fix that marriage and got nowhere because he wasn’t communicating at all and had written off counselling after a bad experience. My respect for her grew enormously when she left.

110

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think you are oversimplifying human reaction. Very rarely is one person going to spell out, “I am unhappy about something and would like to work it out”. That wouldn’t even qualify as “nagging”. What is more likely to happen is an increase in random fights about absolutely nothing ranging from taking the trash out to how mad the wife is that the husband glanced at a passing ass for more than 2 seconds. It then escalates until there is nothing but fighting or they avoid each other. Is it ever as black and white as what you stated? Only one person’s fault? Doubtful.[/quote]

For the sake of the argument I was over simplifying the point. but I think that the point is still valid. What one finds in practice is that a “good” relationship is based on reciprocity. Each party respects the other’s wishes. In the case where one’s wishes are unrealistic I’d say that was something that you should have worked out prior to marriage. Even that though is a gross simplification. When you’re dating most people are much more tolerant of another’s habits and peccadillos. After you’ve been together for a while that’s when those little things start getting on your nerves. But this gradual process is part of a greater trend of dismissal or a lack of caring. As the relationship wanes one isn’t as willing to overlook. Maintain the same level of involvement you shared when you were first dating and both spouses will care too much about the other to really get upset about such things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I blame society for that as a whole. It is now basically “cool” to cheat on your husband or wife as long as you don’t get caught. With so many people playing, why even jump in the game?[/quote]

I don’t think I really believe this. Certainly divorce is much more prevalent today, but I think (read: pulling this one out of my arse) that is a result of a social acceptance of divorce. 50 years ago people were the same as they are today, but if you divorced your spouse there was a real social stigma attached to the decision that simply isn’t there anymore. I really don’t see this as a bad thing. Would you really want to be stuck married to someone you didn’t love/couldn’t stand?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What happens if your own happiness suffers from trying so hard to make someone else happy?[/quote]

[simplification]
If you love her her happiness is yours.
[/simplification]

Think about some happily married couple that you’ve known in your life. Wasn’t the one thing that would make each of them the happiest would be doing something that made the other happy? That’s not to say your interests should be the same or that your ideal spouse is some kind of bizarro clone of you, rather you like this person so much that the idea of making them happy really makes you happy. Obviously in a healthy happy marriage this is where the concept of reciprocity comes into play. Each one of you is actively working to make the other happy. At least some of the time. And your spouse’s interests should be the top “other person’s” interests in your life.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is another reason I wouldn’t get married without a pre-nupt. I didn’t work hard to reach a certain level in my life to have it all taken away from me based on possible relationship issues. the legal system has simply made it way too easy. It is almost better to be POOR and expect a happy marriage than it is to have some money in the bank and a decent career and then expect for all of that “happiness” to shine through.[/quote]

You’re being cynical. The system is this way because traditionally speaking (and I’d hazard to say still the rule) the woman acted as support personel for the husband/breadwinner. when I got married and my wife became pregnant she retired to take care of the kids. She lost a lot of income in doing this, and if she re-entered the job market today she’s at a disadvantage compared to where she’d be if she kept her job. We did this because we didn’t want our kids being raised by day care workers. And truth be told being a stay at home mom is a lot harder on most levels than working a 9-5 job and not having to be subjected to little babies 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Private bathroom breaks are seriously underrated. My wife continues to support my efforts in the workplace on a multitude of levels even though our kids are now getting older and she’s starting to work outside of the home again. The ideal situation is that spouses work as a team. If the situation is less than ideal an honest appraisal of the situation is in order. Most people I meet (and perhaps this says something about society) like avoiding such direct honesty. More often than not they don’t like admitting their part of the failure in the marriage.

111

Nobody goes into marriage thinking they’re going to get a divorce at some point, they happen to some of the best of us. I have to believe that most people who make the decision to get married believe their partnet to be the one. Events and circumstances over the course of their marriage may change this. However, even when you have a pre-nup, make sure it is well-written:

112

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Nobody goes into marriage thinking they’re going to get a divorce at some point, they happen to some of the best of us. I have to believe that most people who make the decision to get married believe their partnet to be the one. Events and circumstances over the course of their marriage may change this. However, even when you have a pre-nup, make sure it is well-written:

Now he won’t have the money to fix the gap in his teeth.

113

I think this is so true. I dont think cheating levels have changed, but divorce is now widely accepted and not seen as shameful. Therefore people are outed more often.

My gf is South Korean and i see their culture in many ways as being about 50 years behind western culture. Divorce is shameful. But people cheat like shit and get away with it because of this. People will cover it up, ignore it so as not to face the reality that they are trapped in a loveless marriage.

114

The first question you have to ask yourself is “Am I willing to stay married to one person until I die?” If you can say yes honestly, then you’ve made a little progress in answering the “worth it” question. Next, if you are willing and you know for certain you’ll do whatever it takes, then you have to find someone who believes the same thing. These are typically religious folks, with long-time married parents, etc.

Recommend you move into a Amish or hard-core religious community, then convert, then marry, if you’re truly interested in being married til you die. If you want kids, you must find someone who values marriage more than most things. The institution itself, I mean. For stability in society, marriage is still the best tool. Yes, half end nowadays, but that half almost always marry again, which means it is still the lifestyle people look for, strive for, want.

The key is to get your first marriage out of the way without any kids, then find someone who has already done the first marriage divorce thing (and doesn’t want to repeat it) and have a family with spouse number 2.

Or like I said, make sure you get a spouse who is wholeheartedly committed to the institution. You can tell this simply by paying attention, and staying in the dating mode for at least a year.

If there are warning signs, stear clear.

I married a gal I met the first day of high school. I could tell she was the “God is wonderful” type, and she was very attractive. Today, she is still very attractive, we’ve been married 15 years, and we have two little ones who are the sunshine in our lives. It was a good choice, on my part. But maybe I got lucky.

Who knows. I got no problems with someone staying single, but I think there comes a time in life when not having the family around feels like a failure.

115

Call me selfish or cynical, but the Prof is right on, I think.

Trusting women is a bad habit. Trusting them and knowing that if they screw you, they get half of what you own? That’s idiotic.

Hence why I plan to marry rich…if the girl ain’t a millionaire, I’m not bothering. :wink:

116

My Wife and I have been married for 36 years. The marriage has produced 3 beautiful daughters and 8 wonderful grandchildren.

She was 17 years old and I was 21 years old when married.

I had just returned from Vietnam in 1969. September 1970 we met at a party and with her mothers permission (her dad had died when she was 14) were married in December 1970. Yes, we had known each other for only 3 months.

I have read all the replys to the original post and found many good points that I could have elaborated on and had listed points of my own to share. But as I pondered on how to present them I came to the conclusion that it boiled down to one word, commitment. Commitment to our marriage vows and to each other. Commitment to making the marriage work and to the needs of each other. We have had our ups and downs and dragouts but because of our love and commitment to each other we have survived. I could go on and on but the question was is “Marriage still worth it”. I didn’t elaborate on the negative of the post but rather the positive and have to say on my part yes , that marriage is still worth it. I couldn’t have found a better wife, lover, or friend to share my life with.

As a side note, while in Iraq, 2004, a fellow senior soldier and I were talking about this very same subject with a group of younger soldiers. He made this statement "When your first married, you come together and grow in love with other. As your family grows, you draw apart because of family commitments. But if you can make it work because of commitment toward each other, and the family becomes two again , you can come back together and grow more in love with each other.

This is our situation now and I can attest to the above statement.

117

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
I came to the conclusion that it boiled down to one word, commitment. Commitment to our marriage vows and to each other. Commitment to making the marriage work and to the needs of each other. We have had our ups and downs and dragouts but because of our love and commitment to each other we have survived.[/quote]

Well said.

118

[quote]blacksheep wrote:

She was 17 years old and I was 21 years old when married.
[/quote]

I think you may have just made the case for getting them young and raising them to be the perfect wife. I’m off to a high school homecoming.

119

[quote]Professor X wrote:
blacksheep wrote:

She was 17 years old and I was 21 years old when married.

I think you may have just made the case for getting them young and raising them to be the perfect wife. I’m off to a high school homecoming. [/quote]

Does that work in reverse too?

120

Funny post. However, as a pro wrestler, you ARE the bad boy. Keep that in mind.

Hijack-

BTW, having dabbled in some pro wrestling, I can attest to the fact that pro wrestlers have some of the hottest wives and GFs and FBs you’ll ever see.

Most guys were with girls who were much hotter than them, or were banging a serious amount of girls.This includes small-time indy guys along with guys who are/were in WCW,WWE, ECW, NOAH etc.

I remember vividly seeing a wrestler, who is going to be on TV tonite starting at 9ET on USA, was married to a stunning Latina, easily a 9 or 10. But, she lived in another city, so when she wasn’t around, this dude would bang girls who I wouldn’t do, and I’m not married to a gorgeous Latina. Guess he’s a true bad boy - or an unfaithful prick.

-End hijack-

[quote]MikeKubo wrote:
BigRagoo wrote:
doogie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
In the original story why was the wife out banging young guys if she had no libido?

That’s code for “hubby has a small penis.”

That, or “hubby doesn’t know how to please anymore.”

Or, “Hubby is my teddy bear. My security. Hubby is the one who holds me when I cry and takes care of me when I’m sick. Now I need to bang the bad boy, and that’s not hubby anymore. I need to feel like the dirty girl I was when I met him to begin with, and since he doesn’t treat me like one, I want someone who will.”

Sadly, despite what society tells us, it’s NOT always the guy’s fault. Some women cheat even when the guy they’re with is better looking, treats them better, has more money and has a bigger cock. And, referencing the OP’s point, there’s really not much of a reason for them not to anymore. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen to them for it? They get the kids and most of your shit.

And no, that’s not all women. And yes, men do cheat and fuck the marriage up too. I think the main difference is the motivation for it. It’s like a conversation I had with my wife the other night at dinner about a rather odd, and, up until recently, virginal male friend of ours. Very nice guy, but definitely on the odd and slightly dorky side. No g/f’s ever in the 8 years I’ve known him. Well, he’s got a good job, saved up a LOT of money and had his own house built, very nice one, and it’s paid for already.

He’s still no more ‘cool’ or ‘normal’ even, haha, but guess what? Hot ass girlfriend now. And others lining up from what we hear. This is how that conversation went.

Me- I can’t believe he has a hot girlfriend now.

Wife- Oh, I can. It’s not like he’s ugly or anything. He’s a nice guy, and he saved up his money, has a nice car, owns his house outright now.

Me- You women and your greed. Always looking for what you can get out of a mother fucker, eh?

Wife- No, but that’s how the world’s always been. Women look for the providers and gatherers to take care of them. Men look for tits and ass. Better for making babies.

Me- Well, at least we’re still looking at a part of YOU, however shallow and dirty it may be, and not past you to see what kinda money you make or what kinda car you drive. Whores.

Wife- Not whores. It’s just the way the world is.

Me- Years ago you were engaged to a DOCTOR. You married a pro wrestler.

That shut her up good. And that’s about the most you can hope for nowadays gentleman, hehehe.

-Kubo

[/quote]