Holy crap, I just realized you posted a reference from the DEA about re-legalization of weed. That’s like asking the KKK what they think about African-American rights.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
c/j wrote:
The argument about it making people lose ambition and motivation is bullshit. It just depends on the person. If all you do is smoke all day, yes it will ruin your life, just like if you play video games all day they will ruin your life too, but they aren’t illegal. I smoke more than any of my freinds, though I would consider myself a moderate smoker, and I’m way more motivated, efficient, and so far sucessful than any of them.
Yeah, and a friend of mine is a functioning alcoholic, pretty much the same thing.
[/quote]
This is highly indivdual as I have friends that smoke pot constantly and lead very productive lives.
If you don’t want to smoke pot or use ephederine then don’t use it but don’t tell me I can’t.
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Holy crap, I just realized you posted a reference from the DEA about re-legalization of weed. That’s like asking the KKK what they think about African-American rights.[/quote]
LOL ToShinDo’s at it again.
This whole legalization case is kinda bullshit anyway. If you want drugs you will get them. I’ve worked in the nightclub/bar business for many years and drugs are everywhere. Very easy to obtain.
Making them illegal creates more deaths than would be the case if they were legal.
Not to mention the IMMENSE amount of corruption stemming from their illegal stature. How many cops, lawyers, judges, and politicians get paid off with drug money? I remember listening to the Libertarian Presidential candidate say that it is estimated that 50% of those in the various government agencies are the ones who actually bring the drugs in due to the gargantuan profits! Think of the C.I.A., F.B.I., D.E.A. and other alphabetical agencies.
Follow the money!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’m still waiting for one of these pro pot guys to tell me all the many benefits that society will have with the legalization of pot. I can think of the many negatives…[/quote]
How about all the lives that would be saved?
Okay so here’s what we know, millions of Americans currently smoke pot. So almost 75 years, and who knows how many billions of dollars, have been spent trying to rid the country marijuana. Yet i’d venture to say that the number of pot smokers has stayed relatively constant. All Im saying is why waste my money and your money (tax dollars) on a war you cant win, when instead you can generate a viable revenue source for the country rather than these funds going to cananda or mexico, or who knows where else.
My opinion is that it shouldn’t be done like cigarettes. If you know anything about weed it’s best if people grow it themselves and sell it and if people had big companies that did it it’d be basicall be like stuff coming from canada the glands on the bud would be destroyed downing the affect.
I still understand taxing not really I don’t like taxes because basically they get money from both sides:
ok you are buying this give us some money. Oh wow you worked hard for this money and we’ll take some of that. It goes in a cycle that never ends of government getting our money.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
orion wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
retailboy wrote:
If the leagalization of Marijuana reduces the consumption of it then we will GREATLY reduce terrorist groups funding.
Oh, you’re one of those people. Yes, importing marijuana and marijuana use in the U.S. is the chief source of funding terrorist groups. Now it all makes sense.
Yes those canadian indoor growers support terrorism where they can. But even they are not as dangerous as those mexican terrorist guerilla growers.
what the hell are you talking about. canadian pot growers are usually just regular people who like to smoke pot or want money. There is no reason to say they support terrorism. Your ignorance astounds me.[/quote]
Please look up “irony” in the dictionary…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’m still waiting for one of these pro pot guys to tell me all the many benefits that society will have with the legalization of pot. I can think of the many negatives…[/quote]
I read all your responses and reasonings and came to the conclusion that you see what you want to see. Arguing with you is pointless because your mind is made up and you converse on the topic to debunk and not consider arguments, so in essence your mind could use a little flexibility, so someone get this buy a bowl.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
I read all your responses and reasonings and came to the conclusion that you see what you want to see. Arguing with you is pointless because your mind is made up and you converse on the topic to debunk and not consider arguments, so in essence your mind could use a little flexibility, so someone get this buy a bowl.
[/quote]
ZEB is very conservative, Gregus. Accepting any kind of change is going to be difficult for him. Even a no-brainer like this issue in this thread.
PS Fuck the bowl, ZEB needs a gravity bong hit. 
[quote]WMD wrote:
Zeb, please provide some peer-reviewed statistics or data to support any of your contentions.
How does prosecuting anyone who does not live their lives the way you think they should make for a better society?
Please, smoke a bowl and quit being a dick to stoners and queers.
WMD[/quote]
Please provide some evidence that making pot legal won’t make more pot heads.
I know that this is a difficult premise for you to grasp, but it’s not about how I live my life…are you with me still?
When you debate public policy it helps to try to grasp the larger picture of how an action effects the greater good of society as a whole.
My advice to you: Smoke less…think more!
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
Holy crap, I just realized you posted a reference from the DEA about re-legalization of weed. That’s like asking the KKK what they think about African-American rights.
LOL ToShinDo’s at it again.[/quote]
What can I say? I like the analogy! I mean, seriously, what do people expect to find from the DEA? Their jobs depend on drugs being illegal, why would they say anything to jeopardize their livelihood?
If cannabis is as horrible and destructive as they say, where are the bodies? Why isn’t Holland in a state of total anarchy? Why does the U.S. government continue to send packs of joints to seven people every month?
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
How about the hundreds of federal agents freed up who can fight against terrorism instead of searching for weed? The BILLIONS of dollars better spent on other programs? The fact that it’s another thing a person can decide for themselves and engage in personal responsibility.[/quote]
How about the countless number of kids who begin to smoke pot because it’s now legal? How about the countless number of people who increase their usage? How about the countless number of accidents because those who smoke are driving? How about the…okay that’s enough. If you can speculate so can I!
More of the illogical debate. Since I don’t want to legalize pot I therefore think it’s better for those who do smoke it to buy it from each other? Now you know that’s not a good argument and obviously not what I meant.
I’m sure there were some deaths from buying “bad booze.” However, compare that to the current facts regarding alcohol:
“…alcohol-related problems cost society approximately $185 billion per year.”
“Currently, nearly 14 million Americans?1 in every 13 adults is an alcoholic.”
It’s not a pretty picture. Let’s not add yet another “legal” drug that will effect the multitudes and cost society yet more money and pain!
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/booklet.htm
Yea…I’m sure that someone driving “high” is a far better driver than someone who is in complete control of their faculties. You actually had my attention until you came out with that line. Do you want your children riding with a bus driver who is high? (most who are in favor of legalization don’t have kids…sorry) Do you want to get into a taxi and ride through a busy city at night with a driver who is high? No of course not.
Are you now saying that one is not as bad as the other, but they are both bad? Why would I want to make two mistakes instead of one? That is not a good argument is it?
Certainly more alcohol related problems, by far. But then again alcohol is a legal drug, hence more people use it. I’m sure that pot would catch up, or come much closer if it were legalized. Again look at prohibition.
[quote]Yet you are not in favor of remaking alcohol illegal, prohibiting tobacco, and legalizing cannabis? Why not? Better for the health system by far. Is it because of tradition?
[/quote]
No, it’s because taking away a right that has existed for so many years would not be popular or feasible. There are far to many alcoholics (1 in 13). We need to deal with the problem of alcoholism not add an additional problem of creating more pot heads.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
aHAHA! But ZEB, what about our doctrine of personal liberty? Shouldn’t the onus be on our government to show us a reasonable way that MJ is harmful to society? All they have is lies. Did you see my post earlier about the prison system and incarcerations, etc.? They (government folks) have a lot to lose if we legalize it.[/quote]
Yes lothario all the government does is make up lies to fool the masses…(sheesh)
I certainly agree that cocaine and PCP are both far worse than pot…But pot also effects the mind and has ngative consequences for those who try to operate a motor vehicle.
Glad you agree with me to that extent. You work the ER and have seen some things I’m sure.
Is pot less harmful than alcohol? I think in some ways that it is. However, I’m also sure that pot damages the lungs far more than beer does. Hey…neither is healthy I think we all know that. (Most mature adults that is).
You may very well be right! Pot might just be less damaging to the body and society than alcohol. But…neither contributes anything good! So why add to the already serious problem of alcoholism?
I agree with most of what you say here. Why do we want even more people to become “stupider” by making it legal? Not a good idea…
…or they are even larger than we can both imagine!
For some people who need it for medical purposes I think it’s a fine idea…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
WMD wrote:
Zeb, please provide some peer-reviewed statistics or data to support any of your contentions.
How does prosecuting anyone who does not live their lives the way you think they should make for a better society?
Please, smoke a bowl and quit being a dick to stoners and queers.
WMD
Please provide some evidence that making pot legal won’t make more pot heads.
I know that this is a difficult premise for you to grasp, but it’s not about how I live my life…are you with me still?
When you debate public policy it helps to try to grasp the larger picture of how an action effects the greater good of society as a whole.
My advice to you: Smoke less…think more![/quote]
Zeb, you are aware that placing the needs of “society” above the needs of individuals is the path to tyranny? There is no such thing as a society that has any needs on its own.
If my actions hurt or even endanger individuals (like driving stoned) put me into jail. If my actions only hurt some abstract concept of society I simply don?t care.
To place societies needs above individuals (society meaning an entity that has some existence transcending that of the individuals that are a part of it) is the logic of the horde, the logic of a closed society. If you follow that path consequently you end up in fascism or communism or any other system that places a “greater-good” above the liberty of individuals.
If I decide to fuck up my life (I doubt I can do that with weed) that is my business. If legalization of any drug causes more suffering or death, well, freedom is not something that comes without a price. I doubt that this would happen, but even if it would, so what? What they do with their lifes is their business, and their business alone.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Please provide some evidence that making pot legal won’t make more pot heads.[/quote]
No one can provide this, for two reasons. First, you wouldn’t be able to do anything but make an educated prediction unless you actually had data on a comparable society that legalized marijuana recently.
But secondly I think logic dictates that you would end up with more pot heads, at least if pot were just as easy or easier to get, and wasn’t any more expensive, under a legalization regime. And given the potential costs associated with incarceration, I think it would almost certainly be cheaper overall if it were legalized.
If something is cheaper and easier to obtain, people will geneally consume more of it than they did when it was more expensive and harder to obtain. [NOTE: by “easier” and “harder” I’m really talking about opportunity costs and possible penalties, not the fact that you can buy some from Jay and Silent Bob outside the video store now, but you’d have to buy it from the locked cabinet with the cigarettes if it were legal].
However, that brings us to our next point, which will come in a moment.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I know that this is a difficult premise for you to grasp, but it’s not about how I live my life…are you with me still?
When you debate public policy it helps to try to grasp the larger picture of how an action effects the greater good of society as a whole.
…[/quote]
This is my entire position w/r/t all the drugs. I happen to think that overall, society would benefit from legalizing marijuana because the costs of enforcing a prohibition outweigh the benefits of that prohibition, at least as far as I can see them.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
How about the hundreds of federal agents freed up who can fight against terrorism instead of searching for weed? The BILLIONS of dollars better spent on other programs? The fact that it’s another thing a person can decide for themselves and engage in personal responsibility.
How about the countless number of kids who begin to smoke pot because it’s now legal? How about the countless number of people who increase their usage? How about the countless number of accidents because those who smoke are driving? How about the…okay that’s enough. If you can speculate so can I![/quote]
Umm, ZEB, kids already smoke pot. Do you really think that anyone here is suggesting legal sales for minors? Please. Countless people who will increase their usage? Who? You? Your wife? How many people do you know that are thinking “Wow, I wish I could get high all the time! If only it were legal…” Since it’s legal to possess cannabis in Alaska, I would assume their rate of usage must be off the charts! Countless stoned drivers? Again, is anyone here suggesting it should be legal to drive while intoxicated? NO. And where are they now? The drivers shown to be high at the time of an accident, I mean. I’m sure there are some, but overall, not many.
The fact is every federal agent that is looking for weed is not looking for bombs. Every cop busting someone for a quarter is not arresting a rapist or a robber. And the numbers show this, the 755,000 marijuana arrests are higher than the arrests for all violent crimes.
[quote]I can only assume that you prefer that kids be able to buy and sell cannabis from each other, instead of regulating and licensing the supply, since you support prohibition.
More of the illogical debate. Since I don’t want to legalize pot I therefore think it’s better for those who do smoke it to buy it from each other? Now you know that’s not a good argument and obviously not what I meant.[/quote]
Well ZEB you are supporting a system that allows children to sell drugs. There is no licensing, there is no regulation at all. Kids don’t run liquor stores, but eighth graders do sell weed. Most high schoolers say weed is easier to get that beer, no fake ID’s, no older brother buying it for you. They go directly to the source. And why wouldn’t some kids sell drugs? Guaranteed tax-free income. Customer base is all around you. Prohibition only reinforces this situation. Chances are your daughter will have access to weed before she does alcohol.
[quote]Speaking of prohibition, you say that death, etc. increased after it was relegalized. Is this scaled for population increase? How about underage drinking during and after? What about poisonings from bathtub gin?
I’m sure there were some deaths from buying “bad booze.” However, compare that to the current facts regarding alcohol:
“…alcohol-related problems cost society approximately $185 billion per year.”
“Currently, nearly 14 million Americans?1 in every 13 adults is an alcoholic.”
It’s not a pretty picture. Let’s not add yet another “legal” drug that will effect the multitudes and cost society yet more money and pain!
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/booklet.htm[/quote]
And yet you’re not for banning all drugs? Why? Wouldn’t it benefit society if there were no more alcohlics or smokers? Wouldn’t you say things are better now than when alcohol was illegal? During that time hard liquor sales lept way up, the murder rate went up and prison population went up as well. Aren’t you glad Budweiser and Miller are shooting at each other to maintain their customer base?
[quote]I’ll find the link later, but a study in Australia and one in Canada show that high drivers are far less impaired than drunk drivers or tired drivers. In a few statistically insignificant instances, they even did better than the control group.
Yea…I’m sure that someone driving “high” is a far better driver than someone who is in complete control of their faculties. You actually had my attention until you came out with that line. Do you want your children riding with a bus driver who is high? (most who are in favor of legalization don’t have kids…sorry) Do you want to get into a taxi and ride through a busy city at night with a driver who is high? No of course not. [/quote]
Good job ZEB, you managed to completely disregard the results of the study! Also, was it hard to deliberately not read the words “statistically insignificant”? It must have been. I also noticed how you took “better in some cases” and turned it into “far better driver”. You must do yoga. I merely reported what the study found, just the data. The reason given for the few minor cases of slightly better performance than the control was the fact the high drivers were aware of their impairment and gave extra effort to being careful.
Do you want your children riding with a bus driver who is drunk? Do you want to get into a taxi and ride through a busy city at night with a driver who is drunk? Since you’re in favor of alcohol remaining legal I wonder! Please ZEB, point out who here is in favor of driving while intoxicated.
[quote]Surely you can admit that compared directly to alcohol cannabis is less dangerous health wise, and to others.
Are you now saying that one is not as bad as the other, but they are both bad? Why would I want to make two mistakes instead of one? That is not a good argument is it?[/quote]
If you have a choice between something that does major harm and minor harm, why do pick the one that does major harm? Oh, it’s because that’s the way it has been done, right?
[quote]In that ER, what did you see more of: alcohol only or cannabis only related injuries? According to national data, cannabis only ER vists rank below dog bites in frequency.
Certainly more alcohol related problems, by far. But then again alcohol is a legal drug, hence more people use it. I’m sure that pot would catch up, or come much closer if it were legalized. Again look at prohibition. [/quote]
Yet you are not in favor of remaking alcohol illegal, prohibiting tobacco, and legalizing cannabis? Why not? Better for the health system by far. Is it because of tradition?
The murder rate went down after prohibtion ended, sounds better to me.
If cannabis use went way up as you claim, you believe that ER visits would as well. Shouldn’t we see some correlation now? In The Archives of Internal Medicine, they stated alcohol related ER visits averaged 7.6 million per year (from 1992-2000 10 Tips for Cutting Back on Drinking) The US Department of Health and Human Services quotes, in 2003, 119 million people used alcohol in the month previous while only 14.6 million used cannabis. So cannabis use is about 12% of alcohol use. Logically ER visits would show the same rate. But 12% of 7.6 million is 912,000, compare that to the stated rate of 125,000 vists for any mention of cannabis, inlcuding with other drugs. Doesn’t match at all. Also, I’m not saying cannabis is great for the lungs (although it has been used to treat asthma due to the dilation effect it has) but tobacco is far far worse. 70.8 million used tobacco in the previous month, cannabis use is about 20% of that. In 2000 tobacco was responsible for 435,000 deaths, 20% of that is 87,000. How many people died from cannabis in 2000? How many cases of lung cancer are attributed to cannabis alone? None.
So you don’t think that making alcohol illegal would drastically reduce the number of alcoholics? Wouldn’t it be worth it? If not, then why do think cannabis prohibition works? Why do you think it’s worth it?
110.2 million Americans aged 12 or over (46.4% of the US population aged 12 and over) have used an illicit drug at least once in their lifetimes. (U.S. Dept. of Health, etc.) How long should all these people be put in jail for?
Let’s see what some cops think about the War on Drugs: http://www.leap.cc/
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m still waiting for one of these pro pot guys to tell me all the many benefits that society will have with the legalization of pot. I can think of the many negatives…
How about all the lives that would be saved?[/quote]
Saved? I can think of many more that would be lost.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zeb, you are aware that placing the needs of “society” above the needs of individuals is the path to tyranny? There is no such thing as a society that has any needs on its own.[/quote]
The greater good of the whole is far greater than the needs of one small sector. In this case 20 somethings that want to get high legally. The majority of citizens in our country are also against the legalization of pot.
(I know there are others much older that would like this as well but all polls show that it’s the 20 somethings that would really like pot legalized)
What happens if they put you in jail because you killed a family of four driving while you were high? Do you care now? Do you care that people are dead and society has to pay for your imprisionment?
Furthermore, with that attitude every drug no matter the hidious effects should be legal. See why that doesn’t work?
And if you follow your logic you wind up with an anarchy. But I know that’s not what you want. And I don’t want communisim, so let’s stop talking extremes. Smoking pot is not such a great need, at least not among most of society. See the problem yet?
Now you see…that’s just not the case! If you mess up your life and need medical attention, or go to jail, or harm another person it becomes societies business. You wish that it were only you that you mess up, but that is rarely the case. And when you effect society you cost us money and I don’t like that. There is already tens of millions of dollars being spent to combat alcoholism. Do we need one more problem like pot? No of course not.
What sort of logic is that? Then why have any laws at all? That is not an appealing argument. How about this instead: Freedom is something that needs to be balanced with the greater needs of society as a whole. Otherwise, why not throw out all laws and become an anarchy? You know what happens then…there is even less freedom! I would like you to think of yourself as one part of a group of people. You do not live in a vacuum. What you do, say and how you act always effects someone else.
[quote] I doubt that this would happen, but even if it would, so what? What they do with their lifes is their business, and their business alone.
[/quote]
Once again you fail to see the ramifications of an individuals actions upon society. It’s almost impossible to mess up your life without effecting others. Not just your immediate family, but complete strangers. One more time: medical costs; insurance costs; incarceration costs; emotional costs of those who are effected by someone who is high (accidents etc). There really is a long list of negative ramifications encouraging even more people to become pot heads.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Please provide some evidence that making pot legal won’t make more pot heads.
No one can provide this, for two reasons. First, you wouldn’t be able to do anything but make an educated prediction unless you actually had data on a comparable society that legalized marijuana recently.
But secondly I think logic dictates that you would end up with more pot heads, at least if pot were just as easy or easier to get, and wasn’t any more expensive, under a legalization regime. And given the potential costs associated with incarceration, I think it would almost certainly be cheaper overall if it were legalized.[/quote]
I don’t think you are looking far enough into this. You don’t think there would be health care costs, insurance costs and basically more “pain” costs involved?
Precisely!
However, that brings us to our next point, which will come in a moment.
ZEB wrote:
I know that this is a difficult premise for you to grasp, but it’s not about how I live my life…are you with me still?
When you debate public policy it helps to try to grasp the larger picture of how an action effects the greater good of society as a whole.
…
This is my entire position w/r/t all the drugs. I happen to think that overall, society would benefit from legalizing marijuana because the costs of enforcing a prohibition outweigh the benefits of that prohibition, at least as far as I can see them.[/quote]
Again, I think you need to look at the many costs attatched to health care, insurance etc. If you think creating more pot heads makes a better society in general I would have to disagree with you.