Yes lothario all the government does is make up lies to fool the masses…(sheesh)
If your being sarcastic with that statement I think you really need to do some independent research. OF COURSE THE GOVERNMENT LIES TO CONTROL THE MASSES. How the hell else do you think it functions? If people knew the truth, or believed it for that matter, no one would be loyal to the U.S. government. Lying is a neccesity to keeping the select few in charge of many. Probably the reason why the richest 1% of the population owns 50% of the wealth, and the supposed “greatest nation on Earth” has starving homeless people in its capital city. Just the same as how children in grade school are taught from a young age how the founding fathers were “fair and just”, but never taught how they were all SLAVE OWNERS who oppressed the poor whites of their newly formed nation that was supposed to be “for the people”. If citizens could directly see their tax dollars being used to buy the bullets that murder Iraq children you really think there would be any support for the war?
I certainly agree that cocaine and PCP are both far worse than pot…But pot also effects the mind and has ngative consequences for those who try to operate a motor vehicle.
Just some input on this one. Did you know the average sentencing for crack is 3 times that of cocaine crimes. Think about that one. Cocaine is a rich mans drug, while crack is used by poor minorities mostly. Yet it is the same fucking drug.
Is pot less harmful than alcohol? I think in some ways that it is. However, I’m also sure that pot damages the lungs far more than beer does. Hey…neither is healthy I think we all know that. (Most mature adults that is).
A study in Men’s Health said that the average pot smoker smokes the equivalent of 1/2 a non filtered cigarette a day, that’s not so bad. Besides that of the people who get lung cancer, 90% were cigarrete smokers in their life. Yet less than 7% of people who smoke cigarrettes get cancer. Personally I believe that tabacco is the most pointless habit on the planet, but pot is beneficial.
I agree with most of what you say here. Why do we want even more people to become “stupider” by making it legal? Not a good idea…
I conpletely disagree with weed making people stupid, as I’ve stated before it depends on the person. If you like to get ripped and study and figure complex equations, obviously it isn’t going to make you stupid. But if you smoke and sit there and do nothing (just like sitting and watching T.V. and doing nothing) your intellectual skills will diminish. Personally unmotivated smokers piss me off because they give the rest of us a bad wrap.
To sum up: Those “negatives” you were mentioning above are not necessarily as large and looming as you might imagine.
…or they are even larger than we can both imagine!
Or none at all.
And hemp is good material for clothes. Makes a mean rope, too. Helps relieve pain in the chronically sick. Helps chemo patients with their nausea. Relaxes a stressed-out mind. Stimulates the appetite. Hey! There’s all kinds of positives! Shall I go on, or do you get what I’m saying here?
For some people who need it for medical purposes I think it’s a fine idea…[/quote]
Zeb keeps writing about the cost to society of pot being legal and all the harm it would cause, and how the majority of the population wants it illegal and all this shit. The majority of the population is NOT in any way inteligent and informed. They’re fucking ignorant sheep that believe everything thing they see on FOX NEWS is true. I think their stupidity can be veiwed by the first popular election of George Bush, and the popularity of religion and especially christianity in the U.S. As far as the costs I think it’s pretty ignorant to speak of the horrible costs to society of Marijuana, when YOUR governemnt opresses it’s own people and MURDERS foreigners on a daily basis, but that doesn’t seem to be a cost to society. To think the people in control of this country give a fuck about your(the peoples) rights and well being is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard. You really think rich as senators and politicians who live more comfortably than most of us ever will experience, are constantly working to make things better for everyone else. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. If that was the case don’t you think some of these problems would be somewhat solved by now. Anarchy may not be the right way, but it beats the hell out of fascism, which is what we pretty much have now.
zeb, I seriously doubt that you have really read my post, and if you should have, you are misinterpreting me on purpose.
But hey, once again: There is no society. Society is an abstract concept that is sometimes useful, but if used in a political debate it is the path to tyranny. Society does not want anything. Society does not need anything. It has no dreams, no soul, it cannot be hurt, etc.
I am not saying that the needs of many individuals cannot override the needs or wants of the few. So, if I drive drunk or stoned arrest me. See, no anarchy there. Goverment is indeed needed to insure the freedom of individuals, by force if necessary.
Telling me that society wouldn?t benefit from legalization, what can I say, who gives a fuck? Society certainly doesn?t, because it has no mind of its own.
You are trying to force me to live by your moral values by invoking your “society” that has to get one step closer to your “social utopia”. That is liberal bullshit. My view of what a perfect society is may greatly differ from yours and it is as valid as yours yet you would get seriously pissed off if I tried to turn you into a small wheel in my little utopian society.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
we really dont need the government telling adults how they ought to live their lives. How does any of that help anyone?
[/quote]
Your right to freedom ends when it starts to affect me. I’m all for less government, and am not against legalizing MJ, but with freedom comes responsibility. It has been proven that people under the influence use very poor judgement. Therefore, if you are willing to lock youself in your house for 24 after using, agree to access medical care on a cash only basis for the rest of you life, and relenquish parental right of your children so that you don’t pass on your dumb-ass habit to future generations, then by all means, toke up.
And for the record, I would be for making alcohol and cigarettes illegal if it were politically possible. Being a realist, I know it’s not possible, but it is possible to keep marijuana illegal. The fact that we allow one type of harmfull behavior, is not justification for allowing another.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
And for the record, I would be for making alcohol and cigarettes illegal if it were politically possible. Being a realist, I know it’s not possible, but it is possible to keep marijuana illegal. The fact that we allow one type of harmfull behavior, is not justification for allowing another.
[/quote]
That has to be the saddest statement made in this thread. An american stating that he knows changing laws is an impossibility for the people of America, but making sure old restrictions stay in place and that new ones are added sounds like freedom or liberty to him?
[quote]c/j wrote:
Zeb keeps writing about the cost to society of pot being legal and all the harm it would cause, and how the majority of the population wants it illegal and all this shit. The majority of the population is NOT in any way inteligent and informed. They’re fucking ignorant sheep that believe everything thing they see on FOX NEWS is true. I think their stupidity can be veiwed by the first popular election of George Bush, and the popularity of religion and especially christianity in the U.S. As far as the costs I think it’s pretty ignorant to speak of the horrible costs to society of Marijuana, when YOUR governemnt opresses it’s own people and MURDERS foreigners on a daily basis, but that doesn’t seem to be a cost to society. To think the people in control of this country give a fuck about your(the peoples) rights and well being is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard. You really think rich as senators and politicians who live more comfortably than most of us ever will experience, are constantly working to make things better for everyone else. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. If that was the case don’t you think some of these problems would be somewhat solved by now. Anarchy may not be the right way, but it beats the hell out of fascism, which is what we pretty much have now. [/quote]
c/j: I agree with almost everything you say but you have to keep in mind the propaganda system within the U.S. It’s not the case that the public is stupid it’s just a case of extreme ignorance. They simply don’t know. I venture to guess that if the population at large were truly informed about what their leaders are doing in their name they’d lynch them.
Also not every religious or Christian is an unthinking sheep. Again - PROPAGANDA! Look at how many catholics are murdered in Latin America trying to help the peasants who are fighting an evil regime proped up by U.S. corporations and the C.I.A.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
c/j wrote:
Zeb keeps writing about the cost to society of pot being legal and all the harm it would cause, and how the majority of the population wants it illegal and all this shit. The majority of the population is NOT in any way inteligent and informed. They’re fucking ignorant sheep that believe everything thing they see on FOX NEWS is true. I think their stupidity can be veiwed by the first popular election of George Bush, and the popularity of religion and especially christianity in the U.S. As far as the costs I think it’s pretty ignorant to speak of the horrible costs to society of Marijuana, when YOUR governemnt opresses it’s own people and MURDERS foreigners on a daily basis, but that doesn’t seem to be a cost to society. To think the people in control of this country give a fuck about your(the peoples) rights and well being is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard. You really think rich as senators and politicians who live more comfortably than most of us ever will experience, are constantly working to make things better for everyone else. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. If that was the case don’t you think some of these problems would be somewhat solved by now. Anarchy may not be the right way, but it beats the hell out of fascism, which is what we pretty much have now.
c/j: I agree with almost everything you say but you have to keep in mind the propaganda system within the U.S. It’s not the case that the public is stupid it’s just a case of extreme ignorance. They simply don’t know. I venture to guess that if the population at large were truly informed about what their leaders are doing in their name they’d lynch them.
Also not every religious or Christian is an unthinking sheep. Again - PROPAGANDA! Look at how many catholics are murdered in Latin America trying to help the peasants who are fighting an evil regime proped up by U.S. corporations and the C.I.A.
Peace![/quote]
Yeah, because europeans are super-enlightened and have answers to everything. Our politicians never lie to us, our media don?t bullshit us and we are just generally smarter.
Umm, ZEB, kids already smoke pot. Do you really think that anyone here is suggesting legal sales for minors? Please.
Umm ToShinDo more would smoke pot if it were more readily available and socially acceptable. Do you think that anyone purposely promotes the sale of beer to minors? However, minors do drink beer. Now how did that happen?
Is it not logical to assume that when something is more soically acceptable and more readily available that it would be consumed more often? Isn’t that basic marketing? Somehow with pot it will be magically different? No of course not.
Legal? Yes and no:
“In November 2, 43% of Alaskan voters said “yes” to marijuana legalization in their state, setting a national record for support of an initiative to tax and regulate cannabis. Although the initiative failed to pass, recent court rulings mean Alaskans can still legally possess a quarter-pound of bud, making it the most pot-tolerant state in the union.”
You don’t have to “suggest” that it should be legal. How foolish that would be huh? All you have to do is make the product more socially acceptable and more readily available. Then even more people will take it upon themselves to drive while high.
Actually, that’s not quite the case. many times a pot bust (or any bust for that matter) will lead to the arrests for other crimes as well.
Yet another twist and deliberate mischaracterization of my point. Let me give it to you again: I support a system that would hunt down and incarcerate those who would sell drugs to children. Do you see the difference?
You continue to fail to demonstrate how making something legal, socially acceptable, more readily available and probably cheaper would somehow eradicate the problem. The only thing it does do is increase the the problem that you and I agree is already there.
I know she would have better access to pot if it were legalized, promoted by “legitimate” corporations and welcomed into society.
I’m sure there were some deaths from buying “bad booze.” However, compare that to the current facts regarding alcohol:
As I already stated: it would not be feasable from a practicle stand point to make cigarettes and alcohol illegal.
Well actually to be fair you failed to produce any study. You simply mentioned that there is one somewhere. If you produce this study I promise I will comment on it. Fair enough?
Again there was no study given.
You have once again used some illogical statements. Since I am not in favor of legalizing pot I must be in favor of bus drivers driving while drunk? LOL. I am the one who put forth the statistics on alcoholism. I think alcohol is indeed a danger when abused. To claim that I am in favor of people driving while intoxicated because I am not in favor of legalizing pot is simply foolish!
[quote]If you have a choice between something that does major harm and minor harm, why do pick the one that does major harm? Oh, it’s because that’s the way it has been done, right?
[/quote]
You say that one does “minor harm.” I don’t agree with you! I think they both do major harm. However, I know that one has been institutionalized and would be next to impossible to repeal (and there are other reasons as well). However, that certainly does not mean we need to double our trouble by legalizing pot.
I think cigarettes are basically on their way out. I think it will take longer to wean those addicted to alcohol. However, again making pot legal is not going to help an already bad situation. You seem to think by comparing them that that helps your argument. It makes no sense unless the referendum was replacing alcohol with pot.
I guess it depends on how you look at the word “murder.” Death rates actually went up and continue to climb because of alcohol (and drugs).
cirrhosis rates climbed for 40 years following the repeal of Prohibition. Traffic accidents and fatalities climbed as well. There are a host of diseases and social problems created by alcohol (and drugs). Why create more by legalizing pot? Not a good idea!
Two things: I’m not sure that we are set up to prove who is high and who is not. With alcohol there is a simple
breathalyzer test which can be administered.
Secondly, because it is illegal I’m sure there are a large majority of people who are quite reticent to admit that they are in fact high on an illegal substance. Many community standards presently dictate that arrests be made upon the use of even a single joint.
What I wonder is how many of these people who are high have also been drinking. While they will readliy admit the drinking because of it’s legal status they are reluctant to even talk about pot use.
Again, I have no idea…but neither do you!
You really are determind to build a case for legalizing pot by telling of how alcohol and tobacco are worse. This is really has no bearing. For the umpteenth time just because cigarettes and alcohol are bad does not mean that we need yet another bad thing to deal with.
Two more things: We have no idea how many people die of lung cancer because of pot use as it is an illegal substance and it’s use is many times not mentioned. We do know that smoke in the lungs is not a healthy thing. Here’s one study:
“Marijuana damages DNA at least as much as tobacco and may have a link to lung cancer, according to a study of mothers and their new born infants.”
Remember it took many years for science to conclusively prove that cigarettes actually caused lung cancer!
I think that it would indeed cut back on the amount of alcoholics. Make alcohol illegal and less people will drink. Make pot legal and more people will use it. This is very basic stuff.
Why do you think companies spend millions of dollars on advertising and key distribution methods? They do so in order to make their product more acceptable and more available. I am sure you agree with this as it is fact! You think somehow it will work differently with pot. Of course not!
Surely you don’t expect an answer to this dubious question. Every case needs to be determined on it’s own merit. Some people need to be placed in incarceration for a very long time
[quote] Let’s see what some cops think about the War on Drugs:
[/quote]
Sure there will be renegade cops current and former who feel that pot should be legalized. However, they represent a tiny minority!
If you check you will find that most Police unions across the country are against the legalizatioin of pot. I would venture a guess of well over 90%! Why don’t you look it up and get back to me…
Here’s what one group had to say:
(The following are not necessarily my views):
“Marijuana is a gateway drug, and so we end up with a death toll that we have seen so painfully across this Nation.”
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m still waiting for one of these pro pot guys to tell me all the many benefits that society will have with the legalization of pot. I can think of the many negatives…
How about all the lives that would be saved?
Saved? I can think of many more that would be lost.[/quote]
Okay first explain the dichotomy here as I do not hear you calling for prohibition of alchol or tobacco or McDonalds for that matter?
And why are you so morally superior? If they legalized drugs tomorrow would you and your wife start snorting rails every weekend?
I don’t do coke because I don’t want to not because it’s illegal. So if the law changed tomorrow I still wouldn’t partake.
Not to metion that the drug war is a monumental failure just like Prohibition was.
And what of the difference between use and abuse? Many people may experiment/use drugs but few - as a total number of drug users - abuse them! It’s like people who drink but don’t become alcoholics.
How many people are in jail for victimless crimes? How much trial time does the judiciary spend on these matters?
The basic facts are this: more people die every year as a result of the war on drugs than die from what we call overdosing. These deaths include , most prominently, durg turf wars and also people who are robbed and killed by those desperate for money to buy whatever drug they may be addicted to.
And what of all the free time the police would now have if drugs were legal and one could buy them at a drug store? They could spend their precious time investigating serious crimes such as rape. Yes they would still be investigating murder but that would drop immensly after drugs were legalized.
Pursuing ulititarian analysis: what are the relative costs on the one hand of medical and psychological treatment for addicts and incarceration on the other? Well it transpires that treatment is seven times more cost effective.
The drug war is several times more painful, in all it’s manifestations, than would be the legalizations of all drugs combined with extensive drug education.
people who suffer from addiction hvae themselves to blame for it. That doesn’t mean as a society we are absolved from helping them. However, their plight is subordinate to those citizens who abstain from drugs or take them peacefully.
And what of the massive amount of corruption that breeds with the illegal staus of drugs? What effect did prohibition have on law enforcement? Many people in key positions of law enforcement get paid off with drug money. The libertarian Presidential candidate said in a debate last year that it has been estimated that 50% of so-called law enforcement officials are the ones responsible for trafficking drugs into the country because of their gargantuan profits. Think C.I.A., F.B.I. and others. Follow the money!
[quote]c/j wrote:
Zeb keeps writing about the cost to society of pot being legal and all the harm it would cause, and how the majority of the population wants it illegal and all this shit. The majority of the population is NOT in any way inteligent and informed. They’re fucking ignorant sheep that believe everything thing they see on FOX NEWS is true.[/quote]
I know we are just a bunch of morons. The only people who have a firm grasp on the truth are all of the 20 somethings who have no children, never voted and want pot legalized…
Well who can argue with that? If you are a Christian and support the President you are an idiot! I hope that is clear to everyone.
Dirty rotten stinking government! Down with BUSH! DOWN With um…everything!
To think the people in control of this country give a fuck about your(the peoples) rights and well being is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard.
You really think rich as senators and politicians who live more comfortably than most of us ever will experience, are constantly working to make things better for everyone else. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. If that was the case don’t you think some of these problems would be somewhat solved by now. Anarchy may not be the right way, but it beats the hell out of fascism, which is what we pretty much have now. [/quote]
[quote]c/j wrote:
Zeb keeps writing about the cost to society of pot being legal and all the harm it would cause, and how the majority of the population wants it illegal and all this shit. The majority of the population is NOT in any way inteligent and informed. They’re fucking ignorant sheep that believe everything thing they see on FOX NEWS is true. I think their stupidity can be veiwed by the first popular election of George Bush, and the popularity of religion and especially christianity in the U.S. As far as the costs I think it’s pretty ignorant to speak of the horrible costs to society of Marijuana, when YOUR governemnt opresses it’s own people and MURDERS foreigners on a daily basis, but that doesn’t seem to be a cost to society. To think the people in control of this country give a fuck about your(the peoples) rights and well being is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard. You really think rich as senators and politicians who live more comfortably than most of us ever will experience, are constantly working to make things better for everyone else. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. If that was the case don’t you think some of these problems would be somewhat solved by now. Anarchy may not be the right way, but it beats the hell out of fascism, which is what we pretty much have now. [/quote]
c/j, your bizarre rant illustrates the problems with pot, it makes you look brain dead.
I’d like to know if you’ve ever sat back, packed a bowl, and blazed up?
Yes…but I never inhaled LOL[/quote]
Zeb, I dont know if that comment was tongue in cheek or what, but if youve never been on that magic carpet ride, I suggest you try it. It’ll give you a whole new perspective. And if you’ve never gotten high, then I don’t think you have much credibility in describing marijuana as “negative.” All of us tokers know that marijuana is a POSITIVE, POSITIVE thing.
Moving away from Zeb and his perspectives, how bout that government sponsored commerical where the two kids are stoned, and one of the kids finds his dad’s gun and proceeds onto blowing his friend away…because they were high. Pure comedy.
[quote]orion wrote:
zeb, I seriously doubt that you have really read my post, and if you should have, you are misinterpreting me on purpose.[/quote]
I did read your post and sorry you feel that I misinterpreted your meaning.
There is a society and you and I are part of it. And in order to make it better, or keep it from getting worse we should never legalize pot!
(I understand your abstract view, I just disagree with it)
Well I certainly agree with your final sentence. However,we can reduce the opportunity for even more people to drive stoned by keeping pot illegal.
Society is the collective group. And they would not benefit from the legalizaton of pot. And they are also against the legalization of pot.
(Note: Once again I understand your abstract view of society but simply disagree with it… with all due respect)
On the contrary I think you are trying to force me to live by your moral values! Currently marijuana is illegal. Don’t try to change the status quo by forcing your moral values on me.
Besides you could say that about most any law. You can rationalize anything as not being important. Helmet laws, seat belt laws, suicide laws, prostitution laws, no smoking laws, etc.
Some of them I like, some I don’t like. However, all are either directly or indirectly related to the betterment of (here comes that word you hate…sorry) society! All effect insurance costs, medical costs, social pain and suffering, the protection of your young etc. I know you don’t like that sort of talk and I am not deliberatly trying to anger you. However, you don’t live in a vacuum as much as you would like to think that you do. What you do effects others.
I’m not trying to turn you into anything. If you live in Austria (as you claim) then US laws won’t effect you anway. However, those who live in the US obey US laws. Currently there are laws against marijuana use. This is primarily because almost 70% of the people in the US want pot to remain illegal. Are they somehow making you feel like a small wheel in thier society? Well…either way, don’t come to the US and you won’t have to worry about it.
Zeplin you are right about the ignorance and propaganda and you seem very well informed. Zap and Zeb I will go toe to toe in a battle of political knowledge with you two, any fucking time. You guys mock what I say, and try to make me look dumb and irrational yet neither of you EVER have a single fact to go against anything I say. So all I can assume is that neither of you have any real info or have done any research on any of this shit, which explains your “plotically correct” bullshit point of view that you’ve been brought up to beleive the world works just as they’ve taught you it has. Good job fellas, way to think for youselves. You might want to check out today’s strong words before you make any more factless remarks. Until then do some research for christ fucking sakes, and then I dare your asses to bring it on.
Okay first explain the dichotomy here as I do not hear you calling for prohibition of alchol or tobacco or McDonalds for that matter?[/quote]
Very simply I am not in favor of changing the laws relative to marijuana.
I would be for studying the possiblities of the other things which you mentioned.
Morally superior? Whoever said such a thing? We are having a debate upon the legalization of marijuana. I am against it. Why would you try to sidetrack that debate by making such a claim?
And that means the everyone else feels the same way? No of course not.
In some ways the drug war is a failure. In other ways it’s not a failure. I’m sure that without it there would be more drugs on the street. Can it be done better? Yes! And if I am appointed drug czar there will be plenty of changes Mr! LOL
I’m not interested in playing the Russian roulette of who will become a rabid user and who will not. We saw what happened with alcohol, why roll the dice again? What good comes from pot use?
I think there are far less “victimless” crimes than you imagine. Drug use is certainly not a victimless crime! One more time: Insurance costs, medical costs, traffic accidents, fatalities. There is a long list. Drug can effect the entire society.
Let us suppose that your preposition is correct. Those who die in “turf wars” choose a lifestyle of crime. If pot were to be legalized they would be fighting and dieing over crack, heroin or some other drug.
Secondly, if pot is legalized what makes you think that many will still not rob and kill in order to get money to buy that drug? I don’t think the ratio would change much, but more people would probably be desparate for pot as it would be in abundant supply.
Police work is strange, things lead to other things. When an officer pulls a driver of a car over because of erratic driving this may lead to an arrest for pot, or a DWI, or even an illegal gun possion charge. You simply can’t make a blanket statement that cops would have more time for other things. With more people getting high because of the abundance of legal pot I think the cops would be even busier with the marijuana problem.
You think you might want all drugs legalized? Ha ha…
Well your are wrong again! Everyones action effects everyone else. Insurance costs, medical costs…hey I already told you about this scroll up…
If you make everything legal then there will be no crime! LOL…Then again there won’t be much left of society…
That’s quite a statement. Would you like to name names? I assume that you have first hand knowledge of this, or at least proof of some kind.
He has no proof of this as this is utter and complete crap!
