Manny Ramirez Suspended

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

And Lanky, I think we just have differing opinions, which is fine.

[/quote]

Yeah, I completely understand where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure our opinions differ much at all. You’ve stated you’re in favor of MLB enforcing it’s steroid policies which I agree with. The only place our opinions might differ is that I just think that even if a baseball player has a legit reason to use something on the banned substance list, they have a choice to make. Baseball or treatment. Mistake or not, Manny was caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing and I think the punishment fits the crime, regardless of his ignorance or lack thereof.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

The fact that these issues are related, is that MLB’s fault or congress? The media? The fans? Who?

Hint: It’s not MLB’s fault.

Once we can figure that out, we can starting pointing fingers and blaming people.

In the meantime, I can say I have no problems with the way baseball’s policy is set up or the way it enforces it’s rules. The rules that people already knew before they signed up to play.

But the rules are changing after players have signed their contracts. The rules are constantly changing. You are wrong about this particular issue. If a guy with secondary hypogandism (a fucked pituitary gland) is using hCG theraputically then signs a contract, then 6 months later MLB bans hCG. What does he do? Stop his treatment and watch his life go down the toilet?

I find it crazy that you can accept the “rules are rules” line. [/quote]

It’s in their contracts that they must follow the rules of MLB and that they are subject to change. I’d hate to see the situation like you described happen to someone but we can’t make rules based on exceptions. Sometimes you’re the rubber, sometimes you’re the road. Such is life.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Edit: And to clarify, there really isn’t anything MLB can do in terms of congress investigating this. You’re right, it shouldn’t be any concern to congress what is going on with MLB, but the MLB doesn’t have much of a choice? .

What can MLB do? Do away with a banned substance list? Can anyone tell me what MLB can do differently help the situation (as a whole, not just in baseball)?

If we want to talk about the whole issue, we still can’t blame the MLB. If congress is using them to push their agenda, well, they really don’t have a choice but to be used.

I agree the entire issue is not black and white, but in baseball, they have to try their best to make it so.

Each case should be treated on an individual basis. Research should be done prior to issuing a suspension.

To my knowledge MLB did research the issue, because the hCG metabolites were discovered after high T levels were reported in a spring training urine test. MLB explicitly stated that they did not care that Manny has a legit reason BECAUSE he failed to file the paperwork. That is absolutely retarded. I know making exceptions is a slippery slope but the ramifications of his suspension on his legacy and ability to sign a contract in the future is compromised becase MLB decided that failure to fill out a piece of paper trumped the fact that he may be innocent of cheating the game. [/quote]

While I disagree that each case should be treated on an individual basis (simply because baseball players could get doctors to lie for them), the rest of your post is a good point. I don’t think I’ve read as much about the situation as you have, but if this is the case then MLB probably could have handled this a little better.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:

And Lanky, I think we just have differing opinions, which is fine.

Yeah, I completely understand where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure our opinions differ much at all. You’ve stated you’re in favor of MLB enforcing it’s steroid policies which I agree with. The only place our opinions might differ is that I just think that even if a baseball player has a legit reason to use something on the banned substance list, they have a choice to make. Baseball or treatment. Mistake or not, Manny was caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing and I think the punishment fits the crime, regardless of his ignorance or lack thereof.[/quote]

Wait.

Was he caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing? Or was he caught doing something that he should have filled out a paper to allow him to do?

This punishment doesn’t fit at all. Literally, yes, he should be suspended for using a drug witout permission. But the punishment goes much further than the 7million dollars and 50 games he’ll miss. He is now labled a cheater. He will have a hard, if not, impossible time finding another team to sign him because of the risk of a 100 game suspension. No competition from other teams will not allow him to get fair market value for his skills. The damage to his reputation caused by MLB is far worse than monetary loss.

If MLB would come out and say that “Manny had a legit medical reason to use the drug, but did file the paperwork, so we were forced to give the suspension; not because he attempted to cheat” I wouldn’t have as big of a problem with this whole thing.

And it is the being labeld a cheater for using hCG that will cause backlash around the perception of hCG. It has just simply become another drug that doctors will be hesitant to prescribe.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:

And Lanky, I think we just have differing opinions, which is fine.

Yeah, I completely understand where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure our opinions differ much at all. You’ve stated you’re in favor of MLB enforcing it’s steroid policies which I agree with. The only place our opinions might differ is that I just think that even if a baseball player has a legit reason to use something on the banned substance list, they have a choice to make. Baseball or treatment. Mistake or not, Manny was caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing and I think the punishment fits the crime, regardless of his ignorance or lack thereof.

Wait.

Was he caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing? Or was he caught doing something that he should have filled out a paper to allow him to do?

This punishment doesn’t fit at all. Literally, yes, he should be suspended for using a drug witout permission. But the punishment goes much further than the 7million dollars and 50 games he’ll miss. He is now labled a cheater. He will have a hard, if not, impossible time finding another team to sign him because of the risk of a 100 game suspension. No competition from other teams will not allow him to get fair market value for his skills. The damage to his reputation caused by MLB is far worse than monetary loss.

If MLB would come out and say that “Manny had a legit medical reason to use the drug, but did file the paperwork, so we were forced to give the suspension; not because he attempted to cheat” I wouldn’t have as big of a problem with this whole thing.

And it is the being labeld a cheater for using hCG that will cause backlash around the perception of hCG. It has just simply become another drug that doctors will be hesitant to prescribe. [/quote]

Exactly. I had one of my frat brothers debate with me yesterday that HCG was simply a fertility drug for women. The fact that this can be used for ED wasn’t even known to him yet he follows this closely. The rest of the nation is the same way. They are ill informed and all of their info about these drugs is coming from the news and Congress as they act as if they are deadly or make someone a “cheater”.

If it isn’t MLB’s responsibility to be more tactful about how public they make these issues (they don’t have rooms with doors you can lock or the ability to speak softly?), then whose responsibility is it? In this instance, they had to have known what the outcome would be…so why would they do it that way? They can’t test these athletes and deal with them in private at all?

[quote]swivel wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

Dude for a LankyMofo you’re actually pretty thick aren’t you ?

What’s with the personal insults? If this is the road you want to go, no problem. You’re a poopie head.

Once more…This isn’t about Baseball. Congress is involved. Mis-information about legit drugs is being propagated and public perceptions are being wrongly influenced on a massive scale. Doctors and Pharmacies are being compromised and men a suffering because of it.

Ok. I’m talking about baseball. And all I’m saying is that if steroids are illegal in BASEBALL, then I don’t care what other conditions, diseases, malfunctions, dysfunctions you have, you shouldn’t be using steroids. Period.

You are saying that there are no grey areas;

I’m saying baseball attempts to make it so there are no grey areas. They have rules and if you violate them, you get suspended. I think this is the right thing to do.

You are saying that the rules of baseball are more important than the relationship between a man and his Doctor. This is just wrong.

Lol, where did I say this? Are you even reading? First you interpret my statement about the rules of BASEBALL (isn’t that what we’re talking about?) to law enforcement and kids being tested in little league, now you’re coming up with this? Man, you really are a poopie head.

I’m saying that if a doctor thinks it’s best that a baseball player use a substance that is on the banned substance list for the MLB, it’s the players choice to do what he wants. He can choose baseball or choose the (hopefully) successful treatment of whatever disorder he may have. No one in this country is granted the right to play baseball for a living.

I’m sorry you have a shitty job.

I don’t have a shitty job, I have a good job making pretty good money. Random drug testing doesn’t change that because they are the rules of my company that I knew before I signed up (willfully) to work here. No biggie.

But this doesn’t mean everyone else has to have shitty jobs also. My advice is you should work hard to change that,you could work for yourself if you wanted to. There are no laws against that, but when enough people start thinking like you do I suppose there will be. Until then, there is opportunity and freedom available in this country; opportunity and freedom that we are losing bit by bit. Your attitude on this is frightening.

I don’t want to change where I work. I like it here. You’re making way too many assumptions about my job and where I work based on the fact that they have random drug testing. Like I said, every employee here is aware of that fact before they sign up to work here. Don’t like the rules? Get a different job!

BTW Baseball is a game that’s worked for our country as a past-time for so long precisely because of the freedoms involved, because of the grey areas which are such a welcome escape from the shitty, rigid world of black and white. Time is a grey area in baseball; there are no clocks. The strike zone is a grey area; Umps can call them tight or loose and players have the ability to influence the calls with their own personal style. Morality is also grey; You can steal, you can decoy, you can lie and cheat and deceive and if you’re good enough at all of that you can get yourself into the hall of fame alongside Babe Ruth who used illegal drugs for his entire career.

I don’t even know what you’re getting at here. Is this supposed to be logical thinking?

Bonez replies are pretty intelligent and he’s actually reading what I’m writing. I think we’re actually making some progress. But you, well, if you come back with another retarded response like this that doesn’t show any trace of logic, nor shows that you’re reading what I’m writing, I’m going to respond by calling you a poopie head and that’s it. That way you’ll know I’ve read your response and deemed it unworthy of my time.

The culture of Baseball is analogous to the culture of our country.

MLB (the owners)is changing the rules as they go so they can make money and they are using the public, myopic people like you, so that they can get richer. It’s now to the point where rules in Baseball are being used to shape the laws we live by.

The primary collateral damage of this is simultaneous erosions of the freedoms and culture that have made the game so great for so long, and the freedoms of Doctors to treat their patients.

You cannot limit your arguement exclusively to baseball because the two, rules of baseball and laws of the USA are now related- similar how markets for food and fuel are now related. That is what this thread is about.

Once again, your attitude that it’s ok for someone, no matter what they do for a living, to be forced to chose between their job and medical treatment is really frightening.

[/quote]

If this is all you’re getting at, I still don’t understand why you’re blaming MLB.

And like I said, no one is born with the right to play baseball for a living. With any rule some people are going to get the short end of the stick, that’s life. We can’t make rules according to exceptions.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Wait.

Was he caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing? Or was he caught doing something that he should have filled out a paper to allow him to do?

This punishment doesn’t fit at all. Literally, yes, he should be suspended for using a drug witout permission. But the punishment goes much further than the 7million dollars and 50 games he’ll miss. He is now labled a cheater. [/quote]

It would have been impossible for him to serve his suspension without an explanation as to why. By your own admission, the MLB did what they were supposed to do. They have no control over how the media portrays what happened or how the fans perceive him or how other ball teams look at him.

If he comes back from this suspension and plays like he is capable, he won’t have a hard time at all finding a contract. I think that has been proven that there are always teams willing to take the risk with little to no damage done to his compensation.

While that’s possible, that probably would have caused a scandal that MLB was trying to save face so that another big name player wasn’t being considered a cheater. Then, of all players that are found to have taken something on the banned substance list, who gets the final say as to whether the person was cheating or actually needed it? You can have 2 different doctors come up with very different opinions as to his need for it. You can have baseball players lying about their symptoms or paying doctors to lie for them in order to get these drugs prescribed to them. Where does it end? I think baseball has to remain neutral when someone fails a drug test. That way everyone is sure there is no favortism going on.

Agreed, but still not MLB’s fault.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:

And Lanky, I think we just have differing opinions, which is fine.

Yeah, I completely understand where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure our opinions differ much at all. You’ve stated you’re in favor of MLB enforcing it’s steroid policies which I agree with. The only place our opinions might differ is that I just think that even if a baseball player has a legit reason to use something on the banned substance list, they have a choice to make. Baseball or treatment. Mistake or not, Manny was caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing and I think the punishment fits the crime, regardless of his ignorance or lack thereof.

Wait.

Was he caught doing something he shouldn’t be doing? Or was he caught doing something that he should have filled out a paper to allow him to do?

This punishment doesn’t fit at all. Literally, yes, he should be suspended for using a drug witout permission. But the punishment goes much further than the 7million dollars and 50 games he’ll miss. He is now labled a cheater. He will have a hard, if not, impossible time finding another team to sign him because of the risk of a 100 game suspension. No competition from other teams will not allow him to get fair market value for his skills. The damage to his reputation caused by MLB is far worse than monetary loss.

If MLB would come out and say that “Manny had a legit medical reason to use the drug, but did file the paperwork, so we were forced to give the suspension; not because he attempted to cheat” I wouldn’t have as big of a problem with this whole thing.

And it is the being labeld a cheater for using hCG that will cause backlash around the perception of hCG. It has just simply become another drug that doctors will be hesitant to prescribe.

Exactly. I had one of my frat brothers debate with me yesterday that HCG was simply a fertility drug for women. The fact that this can be used for ED wasn’t even known to him yet he follows this closely. The rest of the nation is the same way. They are ill informed and all of their info about these drugs is coming from the news and Congress as they act as if they are deadly or make someone a “cheater”.

If it isn’t MLB’s responsibility to be more tactful about how public they make these issues (they don’t have rooms with doors you can lock or the ability to speak softly?), then whose responsibility is it? In this instance, they had to have known what the outcome would be…so why would they do it that way? They can’t test these athletes and deal with them in private at all?[/quote]

How do you serve out a 50 game suspension…privately?

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

How do you serve out a 50 game suspension…privately?[/quote]

By not serving it because someone told you, “hey, you need to fill out this form in order to correct your penis issues without getting suspended. This has been a warning.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

How do you serve out a 50 game suspension…privately?

By not serving it because someone told you, “hey, you need to fill out this form in order to correct your penis issues without getting suspended. This has been a warning.”[/quote]

So you’re in favor of making exceptions?

BTW, do you guys have a link that shows he could have used the drug if he had filled out the paperwork first? I haven’t heard that but I don’t watch much (any) TV really so I probably missed it. The stories I’ve read haven’t mentioned that.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

How do you serve out a 50 game suspension…privately?

By not serving it because someone told you, “hey, you need to fill out this form in order to correct your penis issues without getting suspended. This has been a warning.”

So you’re in favor of making exceptions?

[/quote]

Yes, especially when not doing so causes several middle aged guys in mid-America to suddenly not be able to pick up their prescriptions at the pharmacy because “baseball policy” has caused a nationwide panic that will no doubt lead to stricter legislation.

Baseball isn’t just about baseball anymore when that happens…and it DID happen so why pretend like there aren’t very far reaching effects of what they do?

If we as a country allow a GAME to dictate LAW then that game needs to understand and accept its responsibility as well. Claiming that it is just a game doesn’t erase the effects, now does it?

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
BTW, do you guys have a link that shows he could have used the drug if he had filled out the paperwork first? I haven’t heard that but I don’t watch much (any) TV really so I probably missed it. The stories I’ve read haven’t mentioned that.

[/quote]

I wish I had the time to sift through the different stories I’ve read. I’ll have time next week, if this topic is still going on.

I do remember hearing that MLB is very strict with their exceptions for drugs on the banned list. So there is no guarentee that MLB would have allowed it in the first place. But if he would have filled out the paperwork he would have had the chance to present his case. He presented his case after MLB caught him so that doesn’t look good for him at all.

But if his doc said hCG was a legit treatment for ED. And MLB had their personal medical professionals to evaluate the claims I’d hope they’d form an answer based on objectivity.

About your earlier point that it isn’t MLBs job to monitor public perception. BULLSHIT! That is all they care about at this point. They care about the perception of baseball as a whole. They don’t give a shit about an individual. For the past 8 years (starting when McGwire and Sosa were doing their thing) everything MLB has done has been done with public perception in mind. You can even argue that public perception is the number one influence since 94 when the strike occured.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

How do you serve out a 50 game suspension…privately?

By not serving it because someone told you, “hey, you need to fill out this form in order to correct your penis issues without getting suspended. This has been a warning.”

So you’re in favor of making exceptions?

Yes, especially when not doing so causes several middle aged guys in mid-America to suddenly not be able to pick up their prescriptions at the pharmacy because “baseball policy” has caused a nationwide panic that will no doubt lead to stricter legislation.

Baseball isn’t just about baseball anymore when that happens…and it DID happen so why pretend like there aren’t very far reaching effects of what they do?

If we as a country allow a GAME to dictate LAW then that game needs to understand and accept its responsibility as well. Claiming that it is just a game doesn’t erase the effects, now does it?

[/quote]

I know you said you don’t know the solution, but do you think stopping the testing is viable? As long as there is testing these stories will come out and this will happen. I’m against steroids in baseball so I’m for testing.

As far as the far reaching effects of baseball, the MLB can’t control that. I’m not sure the MLB can do anything to take steps in the right direction. For now it will have to take it’s place on the whipping pole and take its beating because no matter what it does, many people will not be pleased.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
BTW, do you guys have a link that shows he could have used the drug if he had filled out the paperwork first? I haven’t heard that but I don’t watch much (any) TV really so I probably missed it. The stories I’ve read haven’t mentioned that.

I wish I had the time to sift through the different stories I’ve read. I’ll have time next week, if this topic is still going on.

I do remember hearing that MLB is very strict with their exceptions for drugs on the banned list. So there is no guarentee that MLB would have allowed it in the first place. But if he would have filled out the paperwork he would have had the chance to present his case. He presented his case after MLB caught him so that doesn’t look good for him at all.

But if his doc said hCG was a legit treatment for ED. And MLB had their personal medical professionals to evaluate the claims I’d hope they’d form an answer based on objectivity.

About your earlier point that it isn’t MLBs job to monitor public perception. BULLSHIT! That is all they care about at this point. They care about the perception of baseball as a whole. They don’t give a shit about an individual. For the past 8 years (starting when McGwire and Sosa were doing their thing) everything MLB has done has been done with public perception in mind. You can even argue that public perception is the number one influence since 94 when the strike occured.

[/quote]

What if he had filed the paperwork and been denied? How could MLB have a doctor evaluate him? If Manny says he can’t get it up, how is the MLB going to prove him wrong? Way too many variables, if you ask me. If it’s banned, no exceptions should be made, IMO.

MLB tries to monitor the public perception of MLB, not steroids. Society in all its wisdom has deemed steroids bad. Society has now connected steroids with MLB. The only thing MLB cares about is disconnecting itself with something that society has deemed bad. The fact that the issue in question is steroids is of no real importance to MLB.

But yeah, if you get some free time or happen to run across those articles again please link them here. I’ll read a few more on my own, as well.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

MLB tries to monitor the public perception of MLB, not steroids. Society in all its wisdom has deemed steroids bad. Society has now connected steroids with MLB. The only thing MLB cares about is disconnecting itself with something that society has deemed bad. The fact that the issue in question is steroids is of no real importance to MLB.

But yeah, if you get some free time or happen to run across those articles again please link them here. I’ll read a few more on my own, as well.[/quote]

This is exactly my point. Manny did not use an anabolic steroid. But anyone who turns on the TV or reads an ESPN article will see the words banned substance and automatically assume he took steroids.

MLB needs to make it clear when people are intentionally trying to cheat and when they aren’t.

It just so happens that at this point in time MLB has a huge amount of influence on the public when it comes to PEDs. MLB could have went about this completely different instead of throwing another person under the bus “just because”.

If Manny was caught with nandrolone or winstrol in his system I wouldn’t be having this argument. Testosterone is different becuase there are a few good medical reasons for both men and women to use it. All MLB cares about is the fact that they can say that they caught another person. They don’t give a fuck what he was caught with. It’s all the same to them. They have taken the exact same stance as the government putting crack, heroin, methamphetimine and PEDs in the same category. Simply irresponsible.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:

MLB tries to monitor the public perception of MLB, not steroids. Society in all its wisdom has deemed steroids bad. Society has now connected steroids with MLB. The only thing MLB cares about is disconnecting itself with something that society has deemed bad. The fact that the issue in question is steroids is of no real importance to MLB.

But yeah, if you get some free time or happen to run across those articles again please link them here. I’ll read a few more on my own, as well.

This is exactly my point. Manny did not use an anabolic steroid. But anyone who turns on the TV or reads an ESPN article will see the words banned substance and automatically assume he took steroids.

MLB needs to make it clear when people are intentionally trying to cheat and when they aren’t.

It just so happens that at this point in time MLB has a huge amount of influence on the public when it comes to PEDs. MLB could have went about this completely different instead of throwing another person under the bus “just because”.

If Manny was caught with nandrolone or winstrol in his system I wouldn’t be having this argument. Testosterone is different becuase there are a few good medical reasons for both men and women to use it. All MLB cares about is the fact that they can say that they caught another person. They don’t give a fuck what he was caught with. It’s all the same to them. They have taken the exact same stance as the government putting crack, heroin, methamphetimine and PEDs in the same category. Simply irresponsible. [/quote]

Suffice to say that I believe the root of the problem is with congress and the public for not knowing, or not caring enough to know better. I think these people are to blame, not MLB.

I mean, if you were Paul Taglibue (sp?), would you put your job, league, and neck on the line and stick up for steroids (or any drugs currently on the banned substance list) given how they are portrayed in the media? Would the benefit (which most likely would be none) be worth the time, money, and effort to educate regular people who don’t care enough to learn more about the subject? To say some things are ok and some aren’t? I don’t even think people would listen. They love hearing the big names get busted.

Or maybe I’m not holding MLB up to a high enough standard, it’s a tricky issue.

I think a big part of this debate is that some here think it’s plausible Manny has penis problems, others, including me, think he was looking for an edge.

I do think there should be wiggle room for exceptions, though. My blood still gets boiling when I think about the Olympic gymnast who won the All-around title but had it stripped because the cold medicine she was taking had a banned substance. The same cold medicine in her country was ok, but the manufacturer used a different formulation in the country the Olympics were held that year (Athens?). That was a reasonable mistake in a case where she and her coaches didn’t exactly have time to do detailed research. Probably a language barrier as well.

Manny’s case is not one I could see making an exception. He had all kinds of time and resources to figure out what he could do and still remain with in the rules.

[quote]on edge wrote:
I think a big part of this debate is that some here think it’s plausible Manny has penis problems, others, including me, think he was looking for an edge.

I do think there should be wiggle room for exceptions, though. My blood still gets boiling when I think about the Olympic gymnast who won the All-around title but had it stripped because the cold medicine she was taking had a banned substance. The same cold medicine in her country was ok, but the manufacturer used a different formulation in the country the Olympics were held that year (Athens?). That was a reasonable mistake in a case where she and her coaches didn’t exactly have time to do detailed research. Probably a language barrier as well.

Manny’s case is not one I could see making an exception. He had all kinds of time and resources to figure out what he could do and still remain with in the rules.[/quote]

I don’t believe the use of causes super-natural levels of testosterone so what edge was he going to get?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
on edge wrote:
I think a big part of this debate is that some here think it’s plausible Manny has penis problems, others, including me, think he was looking for an edge.

I do think there should be wiggle room for exceptions, though. My blood still gets boiling when I think about the Olympic gymnast who won the All-around title but had it stripped because the cold medicine she was taking had a banned substance. The same cold medicine in her country was ok, but the manufacturer used a different formulation in the country the Olympics were held that year (Athens?). That was a reasonable mistake in a case where she and her coaches didn’t exactly have time to do detailed research. Probably a language barrier as well.

Manny’s case is not one I could see making an exception. He had all kinds of time and resources to figure out what he could do and still remain with in the rules.

I don’t believe the use of causes super-natural levels of testosterone so what edge was he going to get?[/quote]

Actually hCG can raise T levels quite substantially. It is not a linear relationship (I dont think) like injecting Test Enanthate would be but using the right amount of hCG could lead to higher than replacement levels of T (possibly more or possibly less, I have no studies to show but I do know that it is possible to use hCG instead of testosterone in a steroid cycle that consists of other AAS when the person doesn’t want to use exo-T). That would lead to a substantial PE effect.

Bill Roberts: if you read this, please chime in if you feel like it. I have a feeling I am not completely right or am leaving something out.

I do not know enough about the drug to know how much would be necessary for ED. I would assume using it to achieve replacement levels of normal T would be sufficient but we don’t know how much the doc was prescribing. This whole thing happened because an MLB test picked up “unnaturally” high levels of T. So apparently his levels were higher than whatever MLB considers a “natural level” or his Testosterone:Epitestosterone was out of whack. There is something about the MLB report that didn’t make sense though. They claimed Manny’s T levels came from an unnatural source. That is poorly worded if the only thing he was taking is hCG because T levels increased through the use of hCG come directly from the testes. Completely natural. Maybe just an error in reporting, as usual. Who knows at this point.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
on edge wrote:
I think a big part of this debate is that some here think it’s plausible Manny has penis problems, others, including me, think he was looking for an edge.

I do think there should be wiggle room for exceptions, though. My blood still gets boiling when I think about the Olympic gymnast who won the All-around title but had it stripped because the cold medicine she was taking had a banned substance. The same cold medicine in her country was ok, but the manufacturer used a different formulation in the country the Olympics were held that year (Athens?). That was a reasonable mistake in a case where she and her coaches didn’t exactly have time to do detailed research. Probably a language barrier as well.

Manny’s case is not one I could see making an exception. He had all kinds of time and resources to figure out what he could do and still remain with in the rules.

I don’t believe the use of causes super-natural levels of testosterone so what edge was he going to get?[/quote]

The impression I got, possibly from reading something in this thread, is that they took a closer look at his blood sample due to elevated testosterone.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
If this is all you’re getting at, I still don’t understand why you’re blaming MLB.

And like I said, no one is born with the right to play baseball for a living. With any rule some people are going to get the short end of the stick, that’s life. We can’t make rules according to exceptions.[/quote]

Well, I suppose at the end of the day I’m blaming MLB because they’re responsible. They promoted the use of steroids and PEDS in general from the beginning. They’ve made huge money from it. Now they completely deny their involvement and keep the public spending by scapegoating players and feeding this weird thirst people have for more legislation. MLB should be the ones apologizing for creating this huge mess. Ever notice how the truly guilty people become the most militant ? You really love rules don’t you …Why do want/need so many rules in your life anyway ?