Man Kills Teen Who Knocked Him Off Bike

Off Topic
61

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
16 yr olds are not children, insisting they are is a disservice to teenagers. They should be expected to have matured some by that age and not quickly be excused for their choices.

I have read several studies that have found the decision making process for teens is similar to adults, meaning that at age 16 you should have enough sense to understand that robbing is men is a crime, especially if you can pick your victims to maximize success.
[/quote]

Yes. They obviously picked them because of his age and that he appeared helpless against them. I doubt if they would’ve attacked a muscular 30 year old construction worker with tattoes if he would have just so happened to be passing by, maybe unless they were armed.

62

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
I think a lot of you have forgotten what it was like to be 16. Also you probably had parents who cared a lot more about how you turned out than the parents of these kids.

[/quote]

Sounds to me as though you are shifting responsibility on to the parents. You have not lived long enough to assume something like that. There are plenty of evil folks out here in the world who were raised by “top-notch” parents, but decided to do evil things. At 16, you’re more than capable of making a choice. My 14 y/o knows this as fact, so I don’t know what your problem is in recognizing this.

The boys conspired to rob people; they understood it was against the law; they chose their prey; sounds like the same thing adult criminals do. They just picked the wrong MF in this case. They got what was bound to come to them a lil sooner than they expected. End of story. [/quote]

At 25 I’m too young to have an opinion on a subject, but at 16 I’m old enough to be shot to death, no questions asked. Do you understand why I do not understand your logic here?

Also, I know plenty about evil in the world. It comes with the job. [/quote]

You don’t understand because you choose not to. If evil comes with whatever job you’re involved in, then you would have firm grasp of a 16 y/o can think and reason like an adult. It’s why they normally get tried as adults after violent crimes.

Take a moment, step back, and re-evaluate your argument. Then re-evaluate again. [/quote]

I understand the situation perfectly. My argument was and is that people are too quick to celebrate something that should, by all accounts, be mortifying. This is not an old story; I’m sure sixteen year olds have been getting killed in such situations for thousands of years, and it happens often. This does not make it any less important. To point at this situation and say Hoorah for self-defense and gun laws is very wide of the point that one should take from this. Loss of life has occured because a problem exists (and has existed for a long time), and instead of solving the issue, we’ve made it possible for people to shoot at it. That seems easier.

I don’t mean any disrespect to the opinions thusfar presented by others in the forum, but when did compassion become so out of vogue?

63

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
I think a lot of you have forgotten what it was like to be 16. Also you probably had parents who cared a lot more about how you turned out than the parents of these kids.

[/quote]

Sounds to me as though you are shifting responsibility on to the parents. You have not lived long enough to assume something like that. There are plenty of evil folks out here in the world who were raised by “top-notch” parents, but decided to do evil things. At 16, you’re more than capable of making a choice. My 14 y/o knows this as fact, so I don’t know what your problem is in recognizing this.

The boys conspired to rob people; they understood it was against the law; they chose their prey; sounds like the same thing adult criminals do. They just picked the wrong MF in this case. They got what was bound to come to them a lil sooner than they expected. End of story. [/quote]

At 25 I’m too young to have an opinion on a subject, but at 16 I’m old enough to be shot to death, no questions asked. Do you understand why I do not understand your logic here?

Also, I know plenty about evil in the world. It comes with the job. [/quote]

You don’t understand because you choose not to. If evil comes with whatever job you’re involved in, then you would have firm grasp of a 16 y/o can think and reason like an adult. It’s why they normally get tried as adults after violent crimes.

Take a moment, step back, and re-evaluate your argument. Then re-evaluate again. [/quote]

I understand the situation perfectly. My argument was and is that people are too quick to celebrate something that should, by all accounts, be mortifying. This is not an old story; I’m sure sixteen year olds have been getting killed in such situations for thousands of years, and it happens often. This does not make it any less important. To point at this situation and say Hoorah for self-defense and gun laws is very wide of the point that one should take from this. Loss of life has occured because a problem exists (and has existed for a long time), and instead of solving the issue, we’ve made it possible for people to shoot at it. That seems easier.

I don’t mean any disrespect to the opinions thusfar presented by others in the forum, but when did compassion become so out of vogue? [/quote]

I have plenty of compassion for older people that get knocked off their bikes to be robbed.

Which is one of the reasons why they should be able to carry a gun.

64

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
I think a lot of you have forgotten what it was like to be 16. Also you probably had parents who cared a lot more about how you turned out than the parents of these kids.

[/quote]

Sounds to me as though you are shifting responsibility on to the parents. You have not lived long enough to assume something like that. There are plenty of evil folks out here in the world who were raised by “top-notch” parents, but decided to do evil things. At 16, you’re more than capable of making a choice. My 14 y/o knows this as fact, so I don’t know what your problem is in recognizing this.

The boys conspired to rob people; they understood it was against the law; they chose their prey; sounds like the same thing adult criminals do. They just picked the wrong MF in this case. They got what was bound to come to them a lil sooner than they expected. End of story. [/quote]

At 25 I’m too young to have an opinion on a subject, but at 16 I’m old enough to be shot to death, no questions asked. Do you understand why I do not understand your logic here?

Also, I know plenty about evil in the world. It comes with the job. [/quote]

You don’t understand because you choose not to. If evil comes with whatever job you’re involved in, then you would have firm grasp of a 16 y/o can think and reason like an adult. It’s why they normally get tried as adults after violent crimes.

Take a moment, step back, and re-evaluate your argument. Then re-evaluate again. [/quote]

I understand the situation perfectly. My argument was and is that people are too quick to celebrate something that should, by all accounts, be mortifying. This is not an old story; I’m sure sixteen year olds have been getting killed in such situations for thousands of years, and it happens often. This does not make it any less important. To point at this situation and say Hoorah for self-defense and gun laws is very wide of the point that one should take from this. Loss of life has occured because a problem exists (and has existed for a long time), and instead of solving the issue, we’ve made it possible for people to shoot at it. That seems easier.

I don’t mean any disrespect to the opinions thusfar presented by others in the forum, but when did compassion become so out of vogue? [/quote]

…the moment we got hit with tons of jackasses who would do this to start with. If they killed the old man, would you be typing this much?

Yes, it does happen often. Kids just 2 years older have been going to WAR for a very long time…and many in past wars slipped through at only 16 years of age.

Compassion isn’t dead. Tolerance of bullshit is.

I know what I was like at 16…and clueless little child wasn’t it. I remember taking full advantage of people who thought that was all I was.

66

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What exactly happens between 16 and 18 that makes someone an adult?

At 16 I had sense. I was on my way to college. When the fuck did 16 year olds become little kids in society? If you can drive a fucking car, you are old enough to THINK.[/quote]

I’ll have to agree with this. Most heinously.

67

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
I think a lot of you have forgotten what it was like to be 16. Also you probably had parents who cared a lot more about how you turned out than the parents of these kids.

[/quote]

Sounds to me as though you are shifting responsibility on to the parents. You have not lived long enough to assume something like that. There are plenty of evil folks out here in the world who were raised by “top-notch” parents, but decided to do evil things. At 16, you’re more than capable of making a choice. My 14 y/o knows this as fact, so I don’t know what your problem is in recognizing this.

The boys conspired to rob people; they understood it was against the law; they chose their prey; sounds like the same thing adult criminals do. They just picked the wrong MF in this case. They got what was bound to come to them a lil sooner than they expected. End of story. [/quote]

At 25 I’m too young to have an opinion on a subject, but at 16 I’m old enough to be shot to death, no questions asked. Do you understand why I do not understand your logic here?

Also, I know plenty about evil in the world. It comes with the job. [/quote]

You don’t understand because you choose not to. If evil comes with whatever job you’re involved in, then you would have firm grasp of a 16 y/o can think and reason like an adult. It’s why they normally get tried as adults after violent crimes.

Take a moment, step back, and re-evaluate your argument. Then re-evaluate again. [/quote]

I understand the situation perfectly. My argument was and is that people are too quick to celebrate something that should, by all accounts, be mortifying. This is not an old story; I’m sure sixteen year olds have been getting killed in such situations for thousands of years, and it happens often. This does not make it any less important. To point at this situation and say Hoorah for self-defense and gun laws is very wide of the point that one should take from this. Loss of life has occured because a problem exists (and has existed for a long time), and instead of solving the issue, we’ve made it possible for people to shoot at it. That seems easier.

I don’t mean any disrespect to the opinions thusfar presented by others in the forum, but when did compassion become so out of vogue? [/quote]

…the moment we got hit with tons of jackasses who would do this to start with. If they killed the old man, would you be typing this much?

Yes, it does happen often. Kids just 2 years older have been going to WAR for a very long time…and many in past wars slipped through at only 16 years of age.

Compassion isn’t dead. Tolerance of bullshit is.

I know what I was like at 16…and clueless little child wasn’t it. I remember taking full advantage of people who thought that was all I was.[/quote]

These jackasses have been amoung us since time immemorable. We should be finding ways to cope with the problem which are more sophisticated than arming the elderly.

I happen to know a thing or two about eighteen year olds going to war. Believe me, the people I work with here, in that age group, are a real gamble as far as reliability and reasoning skill. Some of them are competent, sure, but more are too naive and reckless to be trusted with any great deal of responsibility.

I’m sure you weren’t a clueless little child at sixteen. Many people aren’t. Some people grow up much faster than others. Regardless, a sixteen year old is still a child and always will be in my book. Becoming an adult is not only about accepting responsibility for yourself, it’s about accepting responsibility for others. You are an adult when you act like an adult, and I don’t care much to use the age limits set down to determine how a person is tried in court as a yardstick.

Concerning the hypothetical situation of the teenager killing the old man. Yes, I would still be writing as much as I am now. My point isn’t that harm has or hasn’t befallen an old man, it’s that a young life has been wasted, very abruptly and without chance for redemption. Hypothetical situations are bullshit, by the way. I can use them too. What if the child was six, retarded, and accidently ran into the old man while playing tickle-tag with his grandma? How 'bout that?

68

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
These jackasses have been amoung us since time immemorable. We should be finding ways to cope with the problem which are more sophisticated than arming the elderly.[/quote]

These jackasses are out in greater numbers because no one seems to understand the laws of cause and effect, or the concept of consequences.

Good on the old man - if it makes other 16 year olds think twice before assaulting senior citizens, then this is a positive societal change. There is no room for compassion for those who lack it themselves. If you decide to be so soft in life, don’t bitch about how people take advantage of you.

69

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What exactly happens between 16 and 18 that makes someone an adult?

At 16 I had sense. I was on my way to college. When the fuck did 16 year olds become little kids in society? If you can drive a fucking car, you are old enough to THINK.[/quote]

Oh how that should be true but is not.

Before I say anything else, I must say that I do agree with the guy defending himself, but killing a teen still should not be celebrated as some people have already done, just accepted as something that needed to happen. We can’t value one life over another without more information, but the older gentleman deserved to value his over his assailants’.

The problem I have noticed with how adults treat teenagers is that they expect them to act like adults and have an adult’s responsibilities but don’t see the teens as even close to peers. One example is when any conversation pops up about politics. Obviously, since I am not even 19 yet, I would have no idea what’s going on. (I was arguing the problems with the Occupy movement, but since I never had to pay taxes, I have “no right to an opinion”.) The point is that we should have adult responsibilities and be seen as adults, such as being able to drink at a party without the cops busting the whole thing up (and before you blast me for this, I feel that I should say that I have not had to deal with that ever). However, if you see us as kids still, don’t give us responsibilities, don’t expect us to make the right choices, and don’t treat us as your peers intellectually.

With that all said and done, I still would prefer being seen as a mature adult expected to act like a mature adult.

70

While I understand the vicarious sense of satisfaction and “Fuck yeah!” people (myself included) feel when they read something like this, it really isn’t anything to celebrate.

I absolutely defend the old guy’s right to defend himself and believe he was completely justified. Regardless, it is very likely that he will experience serious and largely negative psychological consequences that will last the rest of his life. I doubt he looked much like Eastwood, Heston or any other movie star. He probably looked more like a frightened old man who did what he needed to do in a bad situation. We are just not really built to kill each other, our behaviour notwithstanding.

While the youths were statistically much more likely to go on to bigger and better felonies than to cure cancer, their deaths are nothing to celebrate either. For whatever reasons they chose to waste their lives. They had already no doubt already caused pain in their families and community. Their deaths will cause more pain. I don’t feel bad for them at all but there’s no joy in it either.

Someone used a wild bear loose in the city as an analogy. When you shoot such an animal it’s just an unpleasant but necessary chore, it’s not high 5’s all around (unless of course you’re an idiot).

No one really wins here.

However I don’t really think that the ages of the those involved is all that relevant. This happened recently near where I live.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110404/teen-murder-sentencing-110404/

The TL:DR is that two teen males lured their 17 female classmate to a remote location where they proceeded to torture-rape-kill-rape her over an extended period of time a la “Hostel”. They then stuffed her in a hockey bag, jump on a bus with the bag, take her to a walking trail, dumped her and lit her on fire. They were trying to get another girl when they were caught. I am not making this up.

I really don’t care about the relative maturity and development of the cognitive processes and judgment that drove this act. I don’t see how it matters in the slightest. The harm they did was on an adult scale (to say the least) and so was the penalty. I think the same applies here.

71

Kids should be taught responsibility and that their actions have consequences from an early age. Parents have to decide how much punishment/blow back the kid gets. If this is not done then you have adult ‘kids’ not able to deal with the world.

There is a longitudinal study that looked how well kids where able to resist a temptation knowing that they get a greater reward if they do not give in to temptation, in that case a cookie. The kids that resisted longer had, in the end, greater success in life on average. They tested the kids at the age of four.

My, and their point, kids need to learn and begin practicing the rudimentary skills that are the foundation of responsibility and consequences very young. If a kid learns he/she is to take what they want when they want it can lead to less lawful behavior later and trouble with education, etc.

As much as I hate to admit, Dr. Phil got one thing right. We raise adults, not kids.

72

[quote]ukrainian wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What exactly happens between 16 and 18 that makes someone an adult?

At 16 I had sense. I was on my way to college. When the fuck did 16 year olds become little kids in society? If you can drive a fucking car, you are old enough to THINK.[/quote]

Oh how that should be true but is not.

Before I say anything else, I must say that I do agree with the guy defending himself, but killing a teen still should not be celebrated as some people have already done, just accepted as something that needed to happen. We can’t value one life over another without more information, but the older gentleman deserved to value his over his assailants’. [/quote]

? Who is celebrating? This will likely happen LESS now that they know you can get shot for it. That’s a win win situation if you save more lives in the long run.

73

If a group of 3 people knock me off my bike I can only assume they intend to harm me. Therefore, I will defend myself. Age is not relevant.

74

I’m all for healthy debate and introduction to perceptions I (or you or whomever) has yet to consider…but I have a difficult time acknowledging the validity of an argument that ignores facts associated with this particular case. The posters who cast their light on one aspect in such a black and white manner (the youths age; a man shot and killed and youth of 16; etc.) don’t add anything of substance to move the discussion along.

This case is not as black and white; when taken out of context and displayed as such it can be perceived by someone who didn’t read the article as the old man as the aggressor, when, in reality, he was not. You do not do your argument any justice when you neglect to acknowledge the situation and variables the situation presents.

I agree that it’s a tragedy a young man died, however, I find all the sympathy I have for the case lies with the old man and the effects bound to arise from this encounter as well as with the youth’s family, as I’m sure they are devastated by their loss. I do not, however, have much, if any, sympathy for the deceased individual as I’m sure, based on his displayed reasoning skills and ability to executed a premeditated violent crime (yes, it was a violent crime him and his cohorts were committing. They forcibly knock over, beat, and robbed unsuspecting elderly individuals … this is a point I think those in the black and white group fail to acknowledge which would lend some semblance of credibility to their argument) had the fore-sight and comprehension to assess some level of risk involved and the consequences of such risk.

Now, we will never know what this young man might have achieved in his life, since it was cut short, nor is it relevant. What is relevant is that an innocent individual successfully defended himself using means available to him, and his aggressor, however unfortunate an individual chooses to believe it to be, is dead. I think an aspect that should acknowledged as well is how easily these young hooligans could have mortally injured their victims. Let’s not lose sight that they were targeting elderly people, and were violently attacking them to achieve their main goal of robbing them. As we all are aware, frailty of people is positively correlated with age. I.e. the older a person the easier it is to bruise, break bones, do severe damage to, etc. with less force applied than you would need to with a younger, healthier person. We could just as easily be talking about how these three punks jumped this old guy on the bike trail and killed him.

75

Very nice post, polo.

We’ve missed you in OHP challenge thread.

76

thanks Tex … I’ve hit a road block with my OHP … it was called the holidays and lack of motivation … getting back in the swing of it now though … going in tomorrow hopefully hit 90% BW which is where I was pre-Thanksgiving.

77

[quote]polo77j wrote:
thanks Tex … I’ve hit a road block with my OHP … it was called the holidays and lack of motivation … getting back in the swing of it now though … going in tomorrow hopefully hit 90% BW which is where I was pre-Thanksgiving.[/quote]
Well, the thread is in a post challenge lull so throw some videos in there to lucent it back up.

78

thats totally awesome

79

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ukrainian wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What exactly happens between 16 and 18 that makes someone an adult?

At 16 I had sense. I was on my way to college. When the fuck did 16 year olds become little kids in society? If you can drive a fucking car, you are old enough to THINK.[/quote]

Oh how that should be true but is not.

Before I say anything else, I must say that I do agree with the guy defending himself, but killing a teen still should not be celebrated as some people have already done, just accepted as something that needed to happen. We can’t value one life over another without more information, but the older gentleman deserved to value his over his assailants’. [/quote]

? Who is celebrating? This will likely happen LESS now that they know you can get shot for it. That’s a win win situation if you save more lives in the long run.

[/quote]

I’ll let you find out who said that. But it sure seems like celebrating to me. And did I ever say it was bad that the old man defended himself? No, I just said it wasn’t good that someone had to die for it. Imagine how the mother feels. Obviously she may not be the best parent, but either way, losing a child might not be the easiest thing to deal with.

80

[quote]ukrainian wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ukrainian wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What exactly happens between 16 and 18 that makes someone an adult?

At 16 I had sense. I was on my way to college. When the fuck did 16 year olds become little kids in society? If you can drive a fucking car, you are old enough to THINK.[/quote]

Oh how that should be true but is not.

Before I say anything else, I must say that I do agree with the guy defending himself, but killing a teen still should not be celebrated as some people have already done, just accepted as something that needed to happen. We can’t value one life over another without more information, but the older gentleman deserved to value his over his assailants’. [/quote]

? Who is celebrating? This will likely happen LESS now that they know you can get shot for it. That’s a win win situation if you save more lives in the long run.

[/quote]

I’ll let you find out who said that. But it sure seems like celebrating to me. And did I ever say it was bad that the old man defended himself? No, I just said it wasn’t good that someone had to die for it. Imagine how the mother feels. Obviously she may not be the best parent, but either way, losing a child might not be the easiest thing to deal with. [/quote]

That mother lost her child because she failed them. didn’t raise them properly. It’s her and her kids fault they are dead, not some 65 year old man that got ganged up on.