Malaysian Flight, Crashed Plane?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
The burning tire theory has merit, with 3 people in the cockpit, surely someone would have called in a mayday even if it took a few seconds? I like the 45,000 feet climb to try to snuff the fire out, pretty ingenious… especially if it worked. Still far fetched it could have still been a ghost ship until it ran out of fuel with all on board dead or close to dead.

[/quote]

But a rapid climb to 45000 feet would create enough G forces that everybody would be pinned to their seats unable to even life their arm to press a button. There’s also a fire extinguisher which would be first choice. No, this is another one of those ‘good’ Muslims; like the one who crashed Air Egypt.

Black box:

co-polit: What are you doing?

pilot: (silence)

co-pilot: What are doing?

pilot: Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar![/quote]

Only problem is that a burning tire isn’t going to be accessible with a fire extinguisher, especially if it leads to an electrical fire in the planes “guts”.[/quote]

Fire is fire to the flight crew and they have standard response protocol they follow to save the plane and everyone on it. Ever see a burning tire? Thick black toxic smoke and the fire can spread from there.

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
The burning tire theory has merit, with 3 people in the cockpit, surely someone would have called in a mayday even if it took a few seconds? I like the 45,000 feet climb to try to snuff the fire out, pretty ingenious… especially if it worked. Still far fetched it could have still been a ghost ship until it ran out of fuel with all on board dead or close to dead.

[/quote]

But a rapid climb to 45000 feet would create enough G forces that everybody would be pinned to their seats unable to even life their arm to press a button. There’s also a fire extinguisher which would be first choice. No, this is another one of those ‘good’ Muslims; like the one who crashed Air Egypt.

Black box:

co-polit: What are you doing?

pilot: (silence)

co-pilot: What are doing?

pilot: Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar![/quote]

Only problem is that a burning tire isn’t going to be accessible with a fire extinguisher, especially if it leads to an electrical fire in the planes “guts”.[/quote]

Fire is fire to the flight crew and they have standard response protocol they follow to save the plane and everyone on it. Ever see a burning tire? Thick black toxic smoke and the fire can spread from there.[/quote]

I don’t know much about planes, but wouldn’t there be a fire suppression system for that?

I mean if it’s a known risk. You’d think they would retract into a closed compartment that can be snuffed out with that inert foam stuff.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
The burning tire theory has merit, with 3 people in the cockpit, surely someone would have called in a mayday even if it took a few seconds? I like the 45,000 feet climb to try to snuff the fire out, pretty ingenious… especially if it worked. Still far fetched it could have still been a ghost ship until it ran out of fuel with all on board dead or close to dead.

[/quote]

But a rapid climb to 45000 feet would create enough G forces that everybody would be pinned to their seats unable to even life their arm to press a button. There’s also a fire extinguisher which would be first choice. No, this is another one of those ‘good’ Muslims; like the one who crashed Air Egypt.

Black box:

co-polit: What are you doing?

pilot: (silence)

co-pilot: What are doing?

pilot: Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar![/quote]

Only problem is that a burning tire isn’t going to be accessible with a fire extinguisher, especially if it leads to an electrical fire in the planes “guts”.[/quote]

Fire is fire to the flight crew and they have standard response protocol they follow to save the plane and everyone on it. Ever see a burning tire? Thick black toxic smoke and the fire can spread from there.[/quote]

I don’t know much about planes, but wouldn’t there be a fire suppression system for that?

I mean if it’s a known risk. You’d think they would retract into a closed compartment that can be snuffed out with that inert foam stuff.
[/quote]

Anything external on aircraft whether it be domestic or military is well-sealed off from the interior. Could a burning landing gear tire proliferate into the cockpit?

I tried to dig up some quick info on an on-board fire system with no luck. I would imagine a halon system would come on automatically in the event of a fire not in passenger or cockpit space.

The former security chief at El-Al airlines thinks Iran is behind this.

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (CNN) – Authorities have spotted two objects in the Indian Ocean that are possibly related to the search for missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said Thursday.

“New and credible information has come to light in relation to the search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 in the southern Indian Ocean,” Abbott said in the the Australian House of Representatives in Canberra. "The Australian Maritime Safety Authority has received information based on satellite imagery of objects possibly related to the search.

“Following specialist analysis of this satellite imagery, two possible objects related to the search have been identified,” he said. “I can inform the House that a Royal Australian Air Force Orion has been diverted to attempt to locate the objects.”

Three other planes will carry out a “more intensive follow-up search,” he said.

Australian search teams have been at the forefront of the hunt for the missing plane in the remote southern Indian Ocean.

The announcement from Abbott raises hopes of finding parts of the plane after a search that is now in its 13th day. Previous reports of debris found in the sea have not turned out to be related

But those reports came before the search area was massively expanded into two large arcs, one that heads north into Asia, the other south into the Indian Ocean.

Other pieces of information related to the investigation into the plane’s disappearance had emerged Wednesday.

Flight simulator probed

Investigators looking at the flight simulator taken from the home of Capt. Zaharie Ahmad Shah, the pilot of the plane, have discovered that some data had been deleted from it, Malaysia’s acting transportation minister said.

What the revelation means is unclear. It could be another dead end in an investigation that has been full of them so far, or it could provide further evidence for the theory that one or more of the flight crew may have been involved in the plane’s disappearance 12 days ago.

“It may not tell us anything. It’s a step in the process,” one U.S. law enforcement source told CNN. “It could be a very insignificant detail in the process.”

Investigators have been looking into the background of all 239 passengers and crew members aboard the plane that vanished in the early morning hours of March 8 while en route from the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, China.

Particular attention has focused on the pilot and first officer on Flight 370, but authorities have yet to come up with any evidence explaining why either of them would have taken the jetliner off course.

Acting Transportation Secretary Hishammuddin Hussein didn’t say what had been deleted, but simulation programs can store data from previous sessions for later playback. He also did not say who might have deleted the data.

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Specialists are examining the simulator in hopes of recovering the data that was deleted, Hishammuddin said.

Among them are experts at the FBI’s forensics lab in Quantico, Virginia, who are examining a copy of the simulator’s hard drive, as well as a copy of the hard drive from the computer of co-pilot Fariq Ab Hamid, law enforcement sources told CNN.

The FBI examination of the computer drives involves sorting through a large volume of data, according to a senior U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation.

“It is going to take some period of time, but we are analyzing it with a great degree of urgency. It is prioritized right at the top because the world is trying to figure this out,” the official said on condition of anonymity.

Deleted files from Shah’s simulator could reveal it had been used to practice diverting the plane and flying it to an unfamiliar airport, experts said. But even if investigators retrieve past simulations showing that Zaharie practiced flying to seemingly odd locations, that doesn’t necessarily indicate evidence of anything nefarious, said Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation.

“You put in strange airports and try to land there, just to see if you can do it,” said Schiavo, adding that she sometimes does just that on the flight simulation program on her home computer.

‘Grasping at straws’

President Barack Obama called the search for Flight 370 “a top priority,” telling KDFW of Dallas on Wednesday that the United States will keep working on it.

“We have put every resource that we have available at the disposal of the search process,” he said.

But beyond help with the computer drives, the Malaysian government has not put in a formal request for additional FBI help overseas, according to the senior U.S. official.

“We have made it clear we are ready to provide help whenever they need it,” the official said. “We are grasping at straws. No one is running on anything white hot.”

More than 60 ships and 50 aircraft are participating in the search. But at least two aircraft, a Japanese search plane and a U.S. Navy P-3 Orion, sat on a runway at a Subang air base this week after Indonesia refused to allow the planes to fly through its airspace.

“From what I understand, this is an international operation,” Cmdr. William Marks, spokesman for the U.S. Navy’s 7th Fleet, told CNN by telephone. “…I’m confident we’re going to be flying today or very soon.”

Later, Indonesia’s military spokesman told CNN clearance was given to all search planes.

Although the search area spans nearly 3 million square miles, a U.S. government official familiar with the investigation said the missing plane is most likely somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean.

“This is an area out of normal shipping lanes, out of any commercial flight patterns, with few fishing boats, and there are no islands,” the official said, warning that the search could well last “weeks and not days.”

Angry families want answers

The lack of progress has angered and frustrated families, who have accused Malaysian officials of withholding information.
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Some family members staged a protest at the Kuala Lumpur hotel where media covering the search are staying. Their efforts were cut short by security guards who removed them through a crush of reporters, dragging one as she screamed.

“I don’t care what your government does,” one woman shouted, referring to the Malaysians. “I just want my son back.”

The agony of the wait is also being felt by families in Beijing, the scheduled destination for Flight 370. They gather daily for a briefing with officials.

Ye Lun, whose brother-in-law is on the missing plane, says every day is the same. He and his group leave the hotel in the morning for a daily briefing, and that’s it. They go back to the hotel to watch the news on television.

In a statement, Hishammuddin said Malaysian authorities “regret the scenes at this afternoon’s press conference.”

“One can only imagine the anguish they are going through,” he said of the families. “Malaysia is doing everything in its power to find MH370 and hopefully bring some degree of closure for those whose family members are missing.”

An abrupt change in direction

The disappearance continues to intrigue the public and frustrate officials, who have turned up no sign of the plane despite the involvement of teams from 26 nations.

On Tuesday, a law enforcement official told CNN that the aircraft’s first major change of course – an abrupt westward turn that took the plane off its route to China and back across the Malay Peninsula – was almost certainly programmed by somebody in the cockpit.

The change was entered into the plane’s system at least 12 minutes before a person in the cockpit, believed to be the co-pilot, signed off to air traffic controllers. Two minutes after the signoff, the plane’s transponder stopped communicating details about the plane’s altitude, speed and heading.

Some experts said the change in direction could have been part of an alternate flight plan programmed in advance in case of emergency; others suggested it could show something more nefarious was afoot.

But Hishammuddin said Wednesday that “there is no additional waypoint on MH370’s documented flight plan, which depicts normal routing all the way to Beijing.”

The Thai military, meanwhile, said it had spotted the plane turning west toward the Strait of Malacca early on March 8. That supports the analysis of Malaysian military radar that has the plane flying out over the Strait of Malacca and into the Indian Ocean.

But it didn’t make it any clearer where the plane went next. Authorities say information from satellites suggests the plane kept flying for about six hours after it was last detected by Malaysian military radar.

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Malaysian authorities, who are coordinating the search, say the available evidence suggests the missing plane flew off course in a deliberate act by someone who knew what they were doing.

Background checks

Investigators are looking into the background of all the passengers and crew members on board the plane, as well as its ground crew, Malaysian officials have said. They’ve received background checks for all passengers on board, with the exception of those from Russia and Ukraine, Hishammuddin said.

So far, no information of significance has been found about any passengers, Hishammuddin said.

China says it has found nothing suspicious during background checks on its citizens on the flight – a large majority of the plane’s passengers.

And some experts have warned against hastily jumping to conclusions about the role of the pilots.

“I’ve worked on many cases were the pilots were suspect, and it turned out to be a mechanical and horrible problem,” said Schiavo. “And I have a saying myself: Sometimes, an erratic flight path is heroism, not terrorism.”

Why were there no phone calls?

Ticking clock

Searchers are racing the clock in their efforts to find the plane and its flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders. The devices have batteries designed to send out pings for 30 days. That leaves 18 days until the batteries are expected to run out.

The task is being complicated by the scope of the search area, as well as the depth of some of the waters being searched – up to 23,000 feet (7,000 meters).

Searchers trying to find and retrieve wreckage and bodies from Air France Flight 447, which crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in 2009, had to use unmanned submarines.

It took nearly two years to find the bulk of the wreckage, including the flight data recorders, in waters nearly 12,000 feet deep. It took even longer to determine what happened to the plane.

I saw that on CNN earlier this morning. That was the area they were looking in the other day about 1400 miles off Perth Australia, within that radius which the news posted as 2260 miles. So they had some good idea and had it narrowed down quite a bit. So any theories about a fire onboard were accurate, which we won’t know until they find enough of it to sift through.

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
The burning tire theory has merit, with 3 people in the cockpit, surely someone would have called in a mayday even if it took a few seconds? I like the 45,000 feet climb to try to snuff the fire out, pretty ingenious… especially if it worked. Still far fetched it could have still been a ghost ship until it ran out of fuel with all on board dead or close to dead.

[/quote]

But a rapid climb to 45000 feet would create enough G forces that everybody would be pinned to their seats unable to even life their arm to press a button. There’s also a fire extinguisher which would be first choice. No, this is another one of those ‘good’ Muslims; like the one who crashed Air Egypt.

Black box:

co-polit: What are you doing?

pilot: (silence)

co-pilot: What are doing?

pilot: Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar![/quote]

Only problem is that a burning tire isn’t going to be accessible with a fire extinguisher, especially if it leads to an electrical fire in the planes “guts”.[/quote]

Fire is fire to the flight crew and they have standard response protocol they follow to save the plane and everyone on it. Ever see a burning tire? Thick black toxic smoke and the fire can spread from there.[/quote]

I don’t know much about planes, but wouldn’t there be a fire suppression system for that?

I mean if it’s a known risk. You’d think they would retract into a closed compartment that can be snuffed out with that inert foam stuff.
[/quote]

Anything external on aircraft whether it be domestic or military is well-sealed off from the interior. Could a burning landing gear tire proliferate into the cockpit?

I tried to dig up some quick info on an on-board fire system with no luck. I would imagine a halon system would come on automatically in the event of a fire not in passenger or cockpit space.[/quote]

Here is a re-staging of the famous Nigerian onboard fire.

Pretty much every pilot knows that if your plane is burning the forward speed of the plane can fan the flames into an inferno (heck, doesn’t have to be that fast, look at the General Slocum ship disaster). There is also the case of the Helios Jet that lost pressure. Everyone passed out with one exception, a flight attendant. He managed to get an oxygen mask on and was seen wandering the cabin by Greek Air Force jets scrambled to assist. He had no idea how to fly the plane or work the radio. It flew for a few hours until it ran out of fuel and crashed, killing all. Point is that the scenario of an on board fire, frantic efforts by the crew and then everyone passes out from smoke or lack of oxygen is not far-fetched at all.

As always, full of shit,

– jj

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
That’s it in a nutshell and I dare anyone to dispute it. The plane may never be found as it rests in 12,000 feet of water.[/quote]

Agreed. This is completely indisputable. Not because it is necessarily right, but because it presupposed an awful lot about the actions of the pilot that can never be verified, even if we find the thing. Since, as you say, it probably rests in 12,000 ft. of water you win.

Oh and the one similar documented caseof an attempted hijacking, Federal Express Flight 705, is restaged here:

It ended up in a surreal UFC type floor free-for-all against a guy armed with hammers while the pilot did barrel rolls buying time to land the plane. Just thought y’all might enjoy this. Point is that reality is way stranger than fiction sometimes… Wasn’t it Mark Twain that quipped that the difference between fact and fiction is that fiction has to make sense?

– jj

Now that there is a dinstict possibility that the plane wreckage has been located (or some of it) some of the early-on more abstract scenarios go away. There is an outside chance of a struggle over the plane and I’ll post another theory regarding the skewed timeline that has possibly stymied the event. Is it possible that daylight savings time change has put some of the seeming real-time events out of order? Just a thought.

The reality may be that the plane was on fire, electrical or from a burning nose gear tire, directly below the pilot seating. The burning tire with the slip stream feeding it can act like a blow torch and go through the aluminum skin in no time. If some composite materials went on fire, those fumes can be almost instantaneously deadly.

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
Now that there is a dinstict possibility that the plane wreckage has been located (or some of it) some of the early-on more abstract scenarios go away. There is an outside chance of a struggle over the plane and I’ll post another theory regarding the skewed timeline that has possibly stymied the event. Is it possible that daylight savings time change has put some of the seeming real-time events out of order? Just a thought.

The reality may be that the plane was on fire, electrical or from a burning nose gear tire, directly below the pilot seating. The burning tire with the slip stream feeding it can act like a blow torch and go through the aluminum skin in no time. If some composite materials went on fire, those fumes can be almost instantaneously deadly.[/quote]

I think the fire idea sounds great and all but the flight was going for like an hour before the sign-off from the co-pilot. Would it seriously take that long before it became noticeable?

I don’t know the answer but the situation certainly begs the question.

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

I think the fire idea sounds great and all but the flight was going for like an hour before the sign-off from the co-pilot. Would it seriously take that long before it became noticeable?

I don’t know the answer but the situation certainly begs the question.[/quote]

Swiss Air flight 111 was airborne and just fine for nearly 2 hours before a short in the entertainment system turned into a fire. Standard procedures (hit the circuit breakers) by the crew to turn off electrical equipment inadvertently turned off a fan that was keeping the fire contained. Pressure differences then sucked the fire into the cockpit. They lost radio contact in the midst of this too as it turned into a raging inferno.

The pilot probably died from burns trying to put out the fire with his bare hands while the co-pilot tried an emergency landing on water, but the fire damaged systems too much, causing loss of control and a crash at full speed into the ocean. No survivors.

So yeah, as a case study, fires can occur at any time in flight. There are several more instances too. Again, this does not prove the Malaysian flight had any of these issues, but as for a disaster that can quickly and unexpectedly obliterate a plane with nary a trace, an in-flight fire is hard to beat.

– jj

They detected pings! Yaaaay!

Now, show of hands, how many think the malaysian government paid off some Aussies to ‘detect’ some pings? How many of you think the Malays floated on by and dropped a couple of pingers overboard?

I’m going with the former because they couldn’t possibly be dumb enough to drop pingers that might actually beep for another month (could they?). By paying off some Aussies right at the limit of the life of the batteries they have a built in explanation for why they can’t pick up the pings again.

I’m rooting for the later though because the possibility that an unmanned sub might send back an image of a ping device sitting on the ocean floor going beep beep beep would be too priceless not to root for.

[quote]on edge wrote:
They detected pings! Yaaaay!

Now, show of hands, how many think the malaysian government paid off some Aussies to ‘detect’ some pings? How many of you think the Malays floated on by and dropped a couple of pingers overboard?

I’m going with the former because they couldn’t possibly be dumb enough to drop pingers that might actually beep for another month (could they?). By paying off some Aussies right at the limit of the life of the batteries they have a built in explanation for why they can’t pick up the pings again.

I’m rooting for the later though because the possibility that an unmanned sub might send back an image of a ping device sitting on the ocean floor going beep beep beep would be too priceless not to root for.[/quote]

Well… a couple of pings have been detected 300+ miles apart too. Explain that one. Now the last I saw on CNN was that they now hear nothing… convenient as hell with the 30-day battery life thing down almost to the hour.

Unmanned subs are the key to putting the whole deal to bed. Program them to sweep big areas systematically and they should be able to detect something.

Rob

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:
convenient as hell with the 30-day battery life thing down almost to the hour.

Rob[/quote]

Exactly