“Many Muslims believe that this is due to the fact that since the expulsion of the Moors from Andalusia in 1492, Islam has suffered major indignities at the hands of the Christians and Jews.”
Was this before the Moghuls took over half of India and the Ottomans took over half of Europe? And they complain about a century of warfare called the Crusades? The Muslims took whole continents and held them for centuries no one ever complains about that happening. Whatever the West does is wrong it seems.
Was this before the Moghuls took over half of India and the Ottomans took over half of Europe? [/quote]
After. But before the Spanish, the British, the Germans, the Russians and the Americans took turns taking over half the world.
Yes, well, if you have the military power to take over whole continents and hold them for centuries, the people you squash generally learn not to complain too much about it. Just ask the Lakota, the Cherokee and the Aborigine.
“Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).
[/quote]
[quote]orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Yea, I aggree. I decided to make the point because I have read in this and many other threads how religion is the root of evil and the world and how proud those posters are that they don’t believe in anything so they are some how absolved from the history of violence, greed and murder.
Could you please post the link to the threads were those bold atheists made that claim?
Thank you…
edit: and while you are at it, please post some examples of atheistic violence in the name of atheism or because of atheistic dogma.
Post an example for:
there is no god ergo violence
Please do!
[/quote]
There is no god ergo the state is the ultimate power.
Now, as I have said, no Muslim would ever commit the heinous sacrilege of depicting their beloved prophets Miryam and Isa (Mary and Jesus) in such a fashion, but what would your reaction be if, say, a Beijing newspaper widely published cartoons depicting the virgin Mary as a syphilitic whore, or Jesus as a pedophile, with the specific intent of pissing Christians off?
How many Chinese people would get beaten up or killed on the street? How many Chinese markets and embassies around the Christian world would be firebombed?
Who knows, but I suspect the answer is “more than we might like to admit.”
I doubt it would many. However, the difference would be that most Christian leaders would publically condemn any violence. We see this violence in the Muslem world & their leaders are not only endorsing it, but encouraging it.
How many people have been killed (sic!) by chistian pro-lifers in the US alone ?[/quote]
A very small amount. Probably less than those killed in the name of Allah in an average day.
There is no god ergo the state is the ultimate power.
Mass murder for the sake of the state is OK.
Just look at what the godless commies did.
But they hardly did it in the name of atheism.
They had no battle cry:" There is no higher being, thereofore absolutely noone is his prophet."
But you are right the coummunists did some things that you could call radical atheism.
Even though there are those who think that communism itself had a lot of religious traits and if seen this way…
[/quote]
I think I made my point, I am not going to beat it to death, link or justify my statements, it was just a check point. Either you get what I am saying or you don’t.
I think I’d like to change the direction a bit. If these nimrods are so sensitive about islam, they just showed a tremendous weakness. If an unintentional “insult” can cause such violence imagine what we can do intentionally, strategically. Our biggest problem with these terrorist bastards to finding them. Insulting their sensitivities apparently brings them out. My apologies in advance to peaceful non-violent, kind muslims, but in the end it would save lives which is better for everybody. These people will show themselves if you antagonize them. I say do it, let smoke them out, or insult them out in to the open…It’s easier to shoot a target you can see.
[quote]bosox4L wrote:
ZAP, so christian pro-lifers did not kill in the name of God? Who did they kill for then?[/quote]
They thought they were, same as these morons in the muslum world. The difference is when Christians do it the larger Christian community & it’s leaders comdemn it. In the Muslum world it celebrated.
I think I made my point, I am not going to beat it to death, link or justify my statements, it was just a check point. Either you get what I am saying or you don’t.
[/quote]
I think your point is that atheists have done things that were as horrific as the things religious people have done.
True.
However you apparently don?t get the not entirely unimportant point that religious people very, very often get violent in the name of religion, while atheists very, very rarely get violent in the name of atheism.
It seems to me that many american christians do not want to address the issue that religion in itself is irrational, which is why it leads to violence with a predictable regularity.
You cannot chose to be just a little bit irrational, once a certain idea is accepted, like the invisible Alpha Male in the sky that revealed himself in some sort of scripture, there will allways be people who lead that kind of thinking to its logical conclusion, the jihads, crusades, whatever…
[quote]orion wrote:
I think your point is that atheists have done things that were as horrific as the things religious people have done.
True.
However you apparently don?t get the not entirely unimportant point that religious people very, very often get violent in the name of religion, while atheists very, very rarely get violent in the name of atheism.
It seems to me that many american christians do not want to address the issue that religion in itself is irrational, which is why it leads to violence with a predictable regularity.
You cannot chose to be just a little bit irrational, once a certain idea is accepted, like the invisible Alpha Male in the sky that revealed himself in some sort of scripture, there will allways be people who lead that kind of thinking to its logical conclusion, the jihads, crusades, whatever… [/quote]
I of course conceed that point. Many people have done very nasty things in the name of religion.
I think, for the most part, that the people who lead or propagate religious wars, piliging and other kinds of evil are doing it for themselves and thier own glory and pleasure. These ring leaders are not under any illusions on why they get people to do what they do. However they use peoples passions, I.E. religion to stir them up and fight for them. ‘God wants you the kill the infidel, redemption awaits’. That kind of shit they do for themselves and not for God.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
bosox4L wrote:
ZAP, so christian pro-lifers did not kill in the name of God? Who did they kill for then?
They thought they were, same as these morons in the muslum world. The difference is when Christians do it the larger Christian community & it’s leaders comdemn it. In the Muslum world it celebrated.[/quote]
I think I made my point, I am not going to beat it to death, link or justify my statements, it was just a check point. Either you get what I am saying or you don’t.
I think your point is that atheists have done things that were as horrific as the things religious people have done.
True.
However you apparently don?t get the not entirely unimportant point that religious people very, very often get violent in the name of religion, while atheists very, very rarely get violent in the name of atheism.
It seems to me that many american christians do not want to address the issue that religion in itself is irrational, which is why it leads to violence with a predictable regularity.
You cannot chose to be just a little bit irrational, once a certain idea is accepted, like the invisible Alpha Male in the sky that revealed himself in some sort of scripture, there will allways be people who lead that kind of thinking to its logical conclusion, the jihads, crusades, whatever… [/quote]
The arguement is for a sort of ethical nihilism. Irrational or blindingly strong-- effectively religious-- belief enables the behavior whether it be religion itself, political-economic theory, or hardcore nationalism. Each can be harmless or even somewhat positive when treated with a healthy and rational scepticism, but all are capable of driving men to illogical beliefs and even destructive actions. Fundamentally the defect isn’t in the ideology, it’s with its creators.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Yea, I aggree. I decided to make the point because I have read in this and many other threads how religion is the root of evil and the world and how proud those posters are that they don’t believe in anything so they are some how absolved from the history of violence, greed and murder.
Could you please post the link to the threads were those bold atheists made that claim?
Thank you…
edit: and while you are at it, please post some examples of atheistic violence in the name of atheism or because of atheistic dogma.
Post an example for:
there is no god ergo violence
Please do!
There is no god ergo the state is the ultimate power.
Mass murder for the sake of the state is OK.
Just look at what the godless commies did.[/quote]
It seems to me that many american christians do not want to address the issue that religion in itself is irrational, which is why it leads to violence with a predictable regularity.
[/quote]
It seems there’s a bit of a flaw in your argument. Are you saying that violence cannot be justified using logic?
It seems to me that many american christians do not want to address the issue that religion in itself is irrational, which is why it leads to violence with a predictable regularity.
It seems there’s a bit of a flaw in your argument. Are you saying that violence cannot be justified using logic?[/quote]
No I am not saying that. Why would you think I do, I don’t see that in my post.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Just making point that religion is not the source of all violence. Non-religious people are violent too.
That’s all I wanted to say.
Good points, pat. However, the point I have been trying to make was not that religion is a source of violence, rather that it has been used throughout history as justification for the violence of superficially pious men, who under the surface were…and are…probably just as godless as the men you named. [/quote]
Yea, like the religion of Carl Marx that so far has led to the death of more than 100 million people.
I think the Crusaders understood these Muslims more than we give them credit for. Unlike their “tolerant” descendents that let them back in to Europe.
