I think that it is
a) perfectly ok to make fun of Mohammed
b) Allah
c) and everyone stupid enough to blow himself up to have sex once in his life (!?!).
Freedom (of speech) is my religion and I am a radical fundamentalist.
Maybe if those “good people” were to grow a sack and denounce or even expel a few terrorists from the religion entirely, their credibility would be improved.
Those cartoons were pretty damned tame. You think the almighty has no ability to deal with humor? You are responsible for your behavior under your belief system…
Some good observations:
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_01_29-2006_02_04.shtml#1138846486
[David Bernstein, February 1, 2006 at 9:14pm]
You Can’t Say That! About Mohammed:
I hope all the American advocates of purportedly modest hate speech laws have a darn good explanation of why the caricatures of Mohammed in European newspapers don’t constitute “words that wound,” “assaultive speech,” ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0813384281/103-4783480-8818226?v=glance&n=283155 ) and speech with regard to which “the [Muslim] victim’s story” should be considered paramount. If you can ban these caricatures under these activist’s theories, there would be little left of the First Amendment. If you can’t ban them, but can ban other forms of speech that is allegedly hateful from the target’s perspective, I’d very much like to know why. I suppose the original caricatures were not meant to cause offense, and intent may make some difference, but they have been reprinted, in the U.S. and abroad, by those who know that Muslims will find them extremely offensive and hurtful, and even by those who reprint them for precisely that reason. And intent to incite may make a difference, but surely reprinting these caricatures is creating incitement on both sides, sometimes purposely so. So, if you believe in laws banning hate speech (and I’m not talking about speech that carries an implicit threat, like burning a cross), I’d like to hear how you would (if at all) distinguish between the kind of speech you would ban, and the caricatures in question.
UPDATE: Of course, you can bring back blasphemy laws, which coexisted with freedom of speech for decades in the U.S. But I don’t get the sense that bringing back blasphemy laws is on the agenda of most anti-hate speech advocates.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Maybe if those “good people” were to grow a sack and denounce or even expel a few terrorists from the religion entirely, their credibility would be improved.[/quote]
Braniac - How the fuck are my personal friends, here in the United States, to expel psychopaths living in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan? That makes about as much sense as you expelling me from however I may wish to categorize myself (warrior, anarchist, mystic, etc.). You can even say I’m expelled from mysticism, but I say “fuck no, I still consider myself a mystic”, and what difference does it make?
But in fact, my friends (and others) DO expel these assholes, when they say “Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim”. I already told you that they go out of their way to denounce these freaks, which sickens me because they shouldn’t have to! It’s people like you that stereotype, who see others as some sort of monolith rather than individuals, and give them such grief that causes them to apologize for someone else in the first place.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Those cartoons were pretty damned tame. You think the almighty has no ability to deal with humor? You are responsible for your behavior under your belief system…[/quote]
First of all… “humor”? This was a clearly baited attack against Arabs and Muslims by depicting them as scimtar-weilding fanatics, with Muhammad wearing a turban bomb. As if the very fact of being Muslim or Arabic predisposes one to being a freak terrorist.
How about Lucky Charms throwing cartoon, marshmallow looking bombs at children on a bus? That might even be a little funnier and less targeting of an established religion - but it’s still indecent to libel all Irish in that way. And especially if one clearly states that they were attempting to provoke a hurt reaction, as in this situation!
Duh duh duh duh… DUH!
[quote]orion wrote:
Freedom (of speech) is my religion and I am a radical fundamentalist.[/quote]
There is something called “slander” and “libel”. And if you were ever a victim, particularly of a crime thus incited, you would understand why laws against these exist.
[quote]vroom wrote:
And I’m sick of having to hear good people apologizing for the barbaric acts commited by those cretins like Osama Bin-Laden, just because he claims to be motivated by the same religion. And this sort of shit is the very reason why those good people are compelled to apologize, as they are brow-beaten incessently by those infected by weakness and ignorance.
Maybe if those “good people” were to grow a sack and denounce or even expel a few terrorists from the religion entirely, their credibility would be improved.
Those cartoons were pretty damned tame. You think the almighty has no ability to deal with humor? You are responsible for your behavior under your belief system…[/quote]
First off, I am damn glad this thread in not about Chuck Norris. When I saw the title I figured someone was due for a beat down.
Vroom, you have it right. There are plenty of good muslims in the world but there is too much tolerance for the bad ones.
Too many good people donate money that ends up in the bad guys hands.
I know some muslims are going to protest and say they denounce OBL etc. but frankly it is not enough.
Islam has to come through these dark times much as Christianity had to come through it’s own dark times.
Right now the incredible tolerance in the western world is the only things that is keeping mosques from exploding every day.
If the western world showed a fraction of the intolerance so prevalent in much of the Islamic world we would have a full scale holy war on our hands.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Those cartoons were pretty damned tame. You think the almighty has no ability to deal with humor? You are responsible for your behavior under your belief system…
Kailash wrote:
First of all… “humor”? This was a clearly baited attack against Arabs and Muslims by depicting them as scimtar-weilding fanatics, with Muhammad wearing a turban bomb. As if the very fact of being Muslim or Arabic predisposes one to being a freak terrorist.
How about Lucky Charms throwing cartoon, marshmallow looking bombs at children on a bus? That might even be a little funnier and less targeting of an established religion - but it’s still indecent to libel all Irish in that way. And especially if one clearly states that they were attempting to provoke a hurt reaction, as in this situation!
Duh duh duh duh… DUH![/quote]
I tend to agree with the majority of vroom’s posts, but here Kailash provides a point blank headshot to end the debate once and for all.
Peace be with all!
My momma used to tell me “Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never harm you.”
What’s with all this sensitivity to others beliefs? Do I not have the ability to say you’re beliefs are a load of crap? Um, by god, yes I do! I do not, however, need to denigrate them with cartoons. Hell, Cartoons should be pissed off for their use on such trivia.
My buddy, Butters over here is incensed! He demands an apology from both the French and Muslims.
<Has my attempt to tell everyone to lighten up come across, Butters?>
<Oh, I don’t think so>
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
And I’m sick of having to hear good people apologizing for the barbaric acts commited by those cretins like Osama Bin-Laden, just because he claims to be motivated by the same religion. And this sort of shit is the very reason why those good people are compelled to apologize, as they are brow-beaten incessently by those infected by weakness and ignorance.
Maybe if those “good people” were to grow a sack and denounce or even expel a few terrorists from the religion entirely, their credibility would be improved.
Those cartoons were pretty damned tame. You think the almighty has no ability to deal with humor? You are responsible for your behavior under your belief system…
First off, I am damn glad this thread in not about Chuck Norris. When I saw the title I figured someone was due for a beat down.
Vroom, you have it right. There are plenty of good muslims in the world but there is too much tolerance for the bad ones.
Too many good people donate money that ends up in the bad guys hands.
I know some muslims are going to protest and say they denounce OBL etc. but frankly it is not enough.
Islam has to come through these dark times much as Christianity had to come through it’s own dark times.
Right now the incredible tolerance in the western world is the only things that is keeping mosques from exploding every day.
If the western world showed a fraction of the intolerance so prevalent in much of the Islamic world we would have a full scale holy war on our hands.
[/quote]
Ditto on the tolerance.
Like I’ve said, why is the West expected to follow every single one of Islam’s picayune rules to the T, but the entire Middle East can do whatever the fuck it wants, it seems, and it’s explained away by saying, “Well, it’s cultural differences.”
[quote]Kailash wrote:
orion wrote:
Freedom (of speech) is my religion and I am a radical fundamentalist.
There is something called “slander” and “libel”. And if you were ever a victim, particularly of a crime thus incited, you would understand why laws against these exist.[/quote]
You cannot slander or libel Allah or Muhammad, as they are fictional characters in the public domain.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
You cannot slander or libel Allah or Muhammad, as they are fictional characters in the public domain.
[/quote]
But to libel Muhammad libels all Muslims, and has provoked many ignorant crimes against real-live people.
Escalation.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings
Anger Over Drawings Spreads Among Muslims
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
Foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers began leaving Gaza as gunmen there threatened to kidnap citizens of France, Norway, Denmark and Germany unless those governments apologize for the cartoon.
In Paris, the daily newspaper France Soir fired its managing editor after it republished the caricatures Wednesday, and Pakistani protesters chanting “Death to France!”
Gunmen in the West Bank city of Nablus entered four hotels to search for foreigners to abduct, and they warned hotel owners not to host citizens from several European countries. Gunmen said they were also searching apartments in Nablus for Europeans.
Militants in Gaza said they would shut down media offices from France, Norway, Denmark and Germany, singling out the French news agency Agence France Presse.
“Any citizens of these countries, who are present in Gaza, will put themselves in danger,” a Fatah-affiliated gunman said as he stood outside the EU Commission’s office in Gaza. He was flanked by two masked men holding up their rifles.
If the European governments don’t apologize by Thursday evening, “any visitor of these countries will be targeted,” he said.
The furor over the drawings, which first ran in a Danish paper in September, cuts to the question of which is more sacred in the Western world ? freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs. The cartoons include an image of Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.
Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet to prevent idolatry. The drawings have divided opinion within Europe and the Middle East, where they have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations against Danish facilities.
France Soir and several other European papers reprinted the drawings in a show of solidarity with the Danish daily.
Foreign journalists were pulling out of Gaza on Thursday, and foreign media organizations were canceling plans to send more people in.
Norway suspended operations at its office in the West Bank town of Ram, just outside of Jerusalem, after receiving threats connected to a Norwegian newspaper’s publication of the cartoons.
“There were threats from two Palestinian groups, the Popular Resistance Committees and the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, against Danish, French and Norwegian diplomats,” Norwegian Foreign Ministry spokesman Rune Bjaastad said.
The ministry was also considering whether to evacuate the office’s 24 staff members and their families, he said.
Jan Pirouz Poulsen, the Danish representative office’s deputy head, said there were six Danes in Gaza and about 20 in the West Bank, and that all had been urged to leave “until the situation improves.”
Raif Holmboe, the head of Denmark’s representative office in the West Bank town of Ramallah, said the office would be closed Friday, following the threats, and no decision has been made whether to reopen Monday. Holmboe said shots had been fired at the Ramallah office earlier this week while the building was empty. No one was hurt.
Palestinian security officials said they would try to protect the foreigners in Gaza. However, police have largely been unable to do so in the past, with 19 foreigners kidnapped ? and released unharmed ? in recent months, mostly by Fatah gunmen.
Emma Udwin, a
European Union spokeswoman in Brussels, said security measures have been taken in light of the threats against foreigners. She did not specify.
Outgoing Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia on Thursday condemned the caricatures, saying they “provoke all Muslims everywhere in the world.”
“We hope that the concerned governments are attentive to the sensitivity of this issue,” Qureia said.
He asked gunmen not to attack foreigners. “But we warn that emotions may flare in this very sensitive issues.”
Sami Abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the Islamic militant Hamas, which defeated Fatah in last week’s Palestinian parliamentary election, also demanded an apology from European countries. However, he said foreigners in Gaza must not be harmed in the protests.
Thursday’s events began when a dozen gunmen with ties to Fatah approached the office of the EU Commission in Gaza. Three jumped on the outer wall and the rest took up position at the entrance.
The group demanded apologies from the governments of Norway, Denmark, France and Germany and called on Palestinians to boycott the products of these countries.
A leaflet signed by a Fatah militia and the militant Islamic Jihad group said the EU office and churches in Gaza could come under attack and urged all French citizens to leave Gaza. Islamic Jihad leaders in Gaza distanced themselves from the gunmen.
The gunmen left after about 45 minutes. The Palestinian employees of the EU Commission had not come to work Thursday. Foreigners working at the office are based outside Gaza, and only visit from time to time.
Gunmen had briefly taken over the same office Monday in protest.
In Pakistan, more than 300 Islamic students protested, chanting “Death to Denmark” and “Death to France.”
Iran’s Foreign Ministry has summoned Austrian Ambassador Stigel Bauer, as representing the European Union, to protest the publication, the Islamic Republic News Agency reported.
Bauer expressed “sorrow” over the incident and promised to convey Iran’s protest to his government and other EU countries, the agency reported. Austria currently holds the rotating presidency of the 25-nation European Union.
A Jordanian newspaper took the bold step of publishing three of the caricatures Thursday, saying it was reprinting them to show readers “the extent of the Danish offense.”
Next to the drawings, the Arabic weekly Shihan said in a headline: “This is how the Danish newspaper portrayed Prophet Muhammad, may God’s blessing and peace be upon him.”
Shihan’s editor-in-chief, Jihad al-Momani, told The Associated Press that he decided to run the cartoons to “display to the public the extent of the Danish offense and condemn it in the strongest terms.”
“But their publication is not meant in any way to promote such blasphemy,” al-Momani added.
Morocco and Tunisia barred sales of France Soir’s Wednesday issue. French publications are normally widely available in the largely Muslim countries, formerly French colonies.
Iraqi Islamic leaders urged worshippers to stage demonstrations from Baghdad to the southern city of Basra following main weekly prayer services Friday to condemn the caricatures.
The director of media rights group Reporters Without Borders, Robert Menard, called for calm. “We need to figure out how to reconcile freedom of expression and respect of faith,” he said.
I think the reason the Muslim community found it quite offensive had more to do with who printed the cartoons. I’m sure if an Islamic country printed cartoons making fun of Jesus, then many Christians would not find it funny as opposed to if a predominantly Christian country would.
And by the way muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. “Allah” is just the name for God.
[quote]Kailash wrote:
harris447 wrote:
You cannot slander or libel Allah or Muhammad, as they are fictional characters in the public domain.
But to libel Muhammad libels all Muslims, and has provoked many ignorant crimes against real-live people.[/quote]
You need to grow up if you really believe that.
Many people have said Jesus is was fictional character and most Christians don’t feel bent out of shape about it. In fact the non Chrsitian portion of the world doesn’t give 2 shits about Jesus.
Most of the world does not believe in Allah as portrayed in your religion and most of the world does not believe Mohammed was a propet. Get over it.
[quote]Reef wrote:
I think the reason the Muslim community found it quite offensive had more to do with who printed the cartoons. I’m sure if an Islamic country printed cartoons making fun of Jesus, then many Christians would not find it funny as opposed to if a predominantly Christian country would.
And by the way muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. “Allah” is just the name for God. [/quote]
They are all monotheistic but it is not the same God. If it was the same God they would share the same beliefs on the son of god, the holy trinity etc.
You are not your religion. Neither are you a prophet.
If you want an excuse to be angry, I guess this is as good as any.
Who cares if Christians found it funny or not?
If it doesn’t have an “ist” attached to it, as a concept, nobody has the right to be unoffended by anothers opinion.
Maybe if innocent women and journalists were not being kidnapped and murdered on a regular basis a certain group of people claiming a religious heritage might have some chance at respect.
I have nothing against the muslim religion, and I’m not one advocating turning the region into a sea of glass, and I’m not one to discount the faults of the west with repect to the Middle East.
However, religious intolerance has been the cause of more pain and suffering on this planet than anything.
Any God there might be had better fucking have a sense of humor to realize they have been the reason for more unnecessary pain, death and suffering than anything else in the universe.
I don’t give a rats ass what anyones religion is, but you had better not try to get me to act in a way that respects your beliefs, because I don’t have to share them.
[quote]Reef wrote:
And by the way muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. “Allah” is just the name for God. [/quote]
Yep, in fact Jews and Christians who speak Arabic pray to “Allah” as well. It’s simply the Arabic word for God - and in fact etymologically related to the Hebrew word which is “Yahweh” (both are Semitic languages).
Here’s a thought…
Instead of griping about people getting the wrong impression of Muslims, how about griping about those that are working to create that misimpression?
I know, I know, you are powerless and you already say the terrorists aren’t muslim. However, the terrorists say they are. Maybe your group and the terrorists should figure that out…
Because really, to those of us who aren’t Muslim, we can’t be bothered to become experts on your damned religion. That’s your problem, not ours.
Besides, going around and issuing death threats against the cartoonists merely proves the cartoonists portrayal was accurate, doesn’t it?
Muslims should be pissed off, but the problem is they haven’t figured out who they really should be pissed off at. It is the shitheads committing obscene acts in the name of your religion that you need to police.
It’s not like the cartoonists are actually claiming to represent muslim beliefs, is it?