Make Me Stronger

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]malonetd wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
apwsearch wrote:
Mondy wrote:

Someone suggested that 5/3/1 was too advanced for an intermediate like me.

My question is who the fuck suggested that? In particular if their feedback led to the development of what you just posted.

Additionally, not to be mean but you are a beginner. You are not even close to intermediate right now.

Train hard. It will be fun to watch your progress.

Me. I don’t see knocking 10% off already weak maxes and then doing max reps with varying %s being the best option for this guy, he’s squatting 225x4… A plain jane powerlifting split would probably offer faster progression. Maybe even a run through of coan-phillipi. I’m not going to try and stop him from doing 5/3/1. However I feel at that point in my own training that there would be faster ways to get to where he wants to be. 5/3/1 would be great when he gets closer to that 300+ pound squat and 400+ pound deadlift.

I can’t say I agree with this very much. I think lots and lots of sub-max reps is exactly what he needs. He’s a beginner – he just needs time under the bar. And, because he is a beginner, I might even have him drop his percentages even further.

I’m not saying 531 is the magic solution, nor am I saying it’s the fastest way to reach his goals, but it is a simple program that focuses on the big lifts. And that’s exactly what he needs.

For the record, I would probably suggest he give the old Madcow 5x5 a few runs simply because of the frequency of the lifts. (I think Rippetoe’s program is similar, too.) But he seems to have his heart set on WS4SB.[/quote]

I don’t believe 5/3/1 was an advanced routine. If I did, I wouldn’t be doing it. Howevever I would think he would progress fdoing a 5x5 variation or a more traditional basic powerlifting program better than 5/3/1 at this point.

22

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Howevever I would think he would progress fdoing a 5x5 variation or a more traditional basic powerlifting program better than 5/3/1 at this point.[/quote]

I don’t necessarily disagree with this and I even said that is what I would recommend. I think the key here though, is to give him something simple with the big lifts that he won’t over think and try to change too much.

23

[quote]malonetd wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Howevever I would think he would progress fdoing a 5x5 variation or a more traditional basic powerlifting program better than 5/3/1 at this point.

I don’t necessarily disagree with this and I even said that is what I would recommend. I think the key here though, is to give him something simple with the big lifts that he won’t over think and try to change too much.
[/quote]

fair enough.

24

Starting strength by Mark Rippetoe.

25

Cool. I’m not trying to dog you. You have been around a while and I have watched your progress. It’s been cool to watch. You work hard and take it to the platform. I have respect for you.

My primary objection is to his cycle as it is written. The comment I made about “who told you that,” was geared more towards, “and did they help you develop that piece of crap you just posted.”

Either of the approaches we are now discussing would be fine. I would recommend he keep the assistance work he does choose in the 8 rep range for at least 2-3 cycles.

The thing I see time and time again is a beginner/intermediate lifter with a heavy reliance on accesory movements, to the exclusion of basic compound movements. The truth of the matter is he is a little testosterone factory right now and unless he overtrains in a big way he will still make gains.

The question he needs to ask himself is if the current cycle he has designed is effective, is he going to be able to sit back and decipher why, or is he just going to write another all over the place accesory movement dominant routine and hope to get the same results?

On the converse, if he chooses, say four compound movements, (squat, flat bench, deadlift and pullups), chooses 2-3 accesory movements for each, lays out a 6-7 week progressive cycle for the core lifts while holding his accesory volume relatively constant, he will have much better data with which to design his next cycle.

I am stealing a phrase here but this is a marathon, not a sprint.

One of the things I am most proud of is lifters I have worked with who now possess the ability to design their own cycles and have begun to understand the peaking process and really only ask me for help on form calibration and meet cycles. Most of these are college age lifters and honestly make my summer training by far the most intense and fun when they are back in town. Can’t let these young bucks get one over on me.

This is what I want to accomplish. Development of self-sufficeient lifters who understand how to write a cycle to achieve a desired outcome. You can’t accomplish this, in particular with a early stage lifter, without structure, a plan, and an ability to look back and understand what has happened in the cycle.

Kids his age need to keep it simple and focus on progression of core movements. IMHO.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:

Currently doing 5/3/1 right now. I totally agree with everything you’re saying, especially about the basic progression on basic movements. However I’m disagreeing that using %age waves are necesary or even optimal at his point in training. Speaker from experience my bench was behind my squat and pull because of shoulder issues. I’ve had ZERO problem adding 10 pounds a cycle to the pull/squat, and may even add 15 next cycle. However my weaker lift is struggleing to progress at 5 pounds a cycle. BTW my raw numbers are 375/225(x3)/455. So I’m not nearly as experienced as you, and I’m willing to admit that. However I’m drawing on experience from when I was in his shoes. Do you think he would make faster progress working with 5/3/1 or a typical squat/bench/dead/bench assistance type of split, working in the 3-5 rep range on the competition lifts? I would take the latter for the time being. and move on to the former after some gains have been made. Why do people keep saying I said it was an advanced routine? I said I don’t think it’s worthwhile until you’re in the 300+ squat, and 400+ pull range. That isn’t advanced. That barely entering intermediate. If even.

Eagerly waiting a reply, I rarely don’t learn something from your posts.[/quote]

26

[quote]Mondy wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:

Dude, stick with a routine and stop worrying about what they do at westside. I’m doing ws4sb and love it. Don’t switch any movement, main or supplementary without giving it a few weeks to see if it works. Get in the gym, bust your ass on a few basic moves, try to add weight or reps whenever you can [this does not necessarily mean every workout] and eat to fuel growth. Stop making shit so complicated man.

Sorry, I just wanted to make sure the routine Im doing now is fine. Alright, I’ll give it a go and bust my ass. Thank you, I needed a wake up call =)[/quote]

See, this is the kind of thing that burns my ass about people who post on this site.

You post a routine, myself aside, you get more than a few knowledgeable people telling you what you have is not ideal, and then one person posts (not to take anything away from da flash) and you post something like this.

Look dude, if you just want somebody to cup your balls and tell you you’re good enough and smart enough, I’m sure you’re parents will do just fine.

Otherwise, don’t post shit like this unless you are willing to consider the feedback you receive.

27

I ran a starting strength routine before

Workout A
3x5 Front Squat
3x5 Bench Press
3x3 Deadlift

Modification :

  • 3x3 instead of 1x5 for deadlifts
  • Front squat to minimize lower back fatigue

Workout B
3x5 Back Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Pendlay Rows

From march 12th to April 16th. I found that my lifts stalled amazingly quick. My front squat went from 165x5 to 180x5, my bench went from 155 to 160. I mean, even with only 2 lb increments (1 lb ankle weights), my progress still stalled. I used to progress quite nicely on a higher volume routine. Therefore, I chose the westside routine over 5/3/1. I didn’t want to come off disrespectful or anything, I just personally thought westside for skinny bastards would be a better choice.

I’ve made up some routines before, not surprisingly they didn’t work too well, this is why I posted my westside for skinny bastards routine just to confirm I’m doing it right. I’ll give 5/3/1 a go, after I done running westside for at least 6-8 weeks. Appreciate the input though.

28

[quote]Mondy wrote:
From march 12th to April 16th. I found that my lifts stalled amazingly quick. My front squat went from 165x5 to 180x5, my bench went from 155 to 160. I mean, even with only 2 lb increments (1 lb ankle weights), my progress still stalled. I used to progress quite nicely on a higher volume routine. Therefore, I chose the westside routine over 5/3/1. I didn’t want to come off disrespectful or anything, I just personally thought westside for skinny bastards would be a better choice.
[/quote]

What?! Your bench went up 5 pounds in 1 month – not bad, and your squat went up 15 pounds, for a 10% increase – that’s awesome. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but those are good gains. How exactly, was this “stalling”?

Look, you don’t have to answer, I get it. You want to run WS4SB and just wanted some anonymous approval. Knock yourself out.

29

[quote]Mondy wrote:
From march 12th to April 16th. I found that my lifts stalled amazingly quick. My front squat went from 165x5 to 180x5, my bench went from 155 to 160. I mean, even with only 2 lb increments (1 lb ankle weights), my progress still stalled. I used to progress quite nicely on a higher volume routine. Therefore, I chose the westside routine over 5/3/1. I didn’t want to come off disrespectful or anything, I just personally thought westside for skinny bastards would be a better choice.

I’ve made up some routines before, not surprisingly they didn’t work too well, this is why I posted my westside for skinny bastards routine just to confirm I’m doing it right. I’ll give 5/3/1 a go, after I done running westside for at least 6-8 weeks. Appreciate the input though. [/quote]

Agree with what Malone said. Additionally, you need to run training cycles at least 2-3 times to begin to understand how to tweak them to work for you. Gains come and go. What becomes important is having realistic goals and working towards achieving them.

To be honest, although I am very familiar with conjugate training, I have never even looked at WS4SB, so there you have it.

One question I do have is why are you doing snatch grip deads? What do you hope to accomplish with these rather than traditional pulls?

30

I’m weak off the floor, so I thought snatch grip deads would be a good choice to help out with that. Since my current gym doesn’t have a squat rack (well it does have a smith machine…) snatch grip deadlifts would also serve as a decent quad exercise.

31

[quote]Mondy wrote:
I’m weak off the floor, so I thought snatch grip deads would be a good choice to help out with that. Since my current gym doesn’t have a squat rack (well it does have a smith machine…) snatch grip deadlifts would also serve as a decent quad exercise. [/quote]

I think at 315 lbs, you don’t get to have a single weak spot in the deadlift.

reread this thread at least 35 times

32

[quote]Stuntman Mike wrote:
Mondy wrote:
I’m weak off the floor, so I thought snatch grip deads would be a good choice to help out with that. Since my current gym doesn’t have a squat rack (well it does have a smith machine…) snatch grip deadlifts would also serve as a decent quad exercise.

I think at 315 lbs, you don’t get to have a single weak spot in the deadlift.

reread this thread at least 35 times[/quote]

thinking I had a weakspot in my lifts at that point in my training is what killed me.

33

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Stuntman Mike wrote:
Mondy wrote:
I’m weak off the floor, so I thought snatch grip deads would be a good choice to help out with that. Since my current gym doesn’t have a squat rack (well it does have a smith machine…) snatch grip deadlifts would also serve as a decent quad exercise.

I think at 315 lbs, you don’t get to have a single weak spot in the deadlift.

reread this thread at least 35 times

thinking I had a weakspot in my lifts at that point in my training is what killed me.[/quote]

x2 when i was at 315, i just knew i had alot of work to do. IMO yea i say 5/3/1

34

[quote]brauny96 wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Stuntman Mike wrote:

I think at 315 lbs, you don’t get to have a single weak spot in the deadlift.

reread this thread at least 35 times

thinking I had a weakspot in my lifts at that point in my training is what killed me.

x2 when i was at 315, i just knew i had alot of work to do. IMO yea i say 5/3/1[/quote]

See, it’s posts like this that almost bring a tear to my eye. Sniff…

Two years ago on this site I almost wore myself to a nub trying to convince beginner/intermediate lifters that they needed to quit with this whole “weak point” training mentality and keep getting to get stronger at the core lifts.

It is what largely lead to me not posting here anymore for quite a while. I was just worn out.

35

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
brauny96 wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Stuntman Mike wrote:

I think at 315 lbs, you don’t get to have a single weak spot in the deadlift.

reread this thread at least 35 times

thinking I had a weakspot in my lifts at that point in my training is what killed me.

x2 when i was at 315, i just knew i had alot of work to do. IMO yea i say 5/3/1

See, it’s posts like this that almost bring a tear to my eye. Sniff…

Two years ago on this site I almost wore myself to a nub trying to convince beginner/intermediate lifters that they needed to quit with this whole “weak point” training mentality and just stay focused on hypertrophy and getting stronger at the ‘core lifts,’ whatever that meant for them.

It is what largely lead to me not posting here anymore for quite a while. I was just worn out.

[/quote]

Aww it’s ok big guy, you wanna join me for a set of abz while cutting from 165-145 while training our obliques?

It’ll chear ya up

36

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Mondy wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:

Dude, stick with a routine and stop worrying about what they do at westside. I’m doing ws4sb and love it. Don’t switch any movement, main or supplementary without giving it a few weeks to see if it works. Get in the gym, bust your ass on a few basic moves, try to add weight or reps whenever you can [this does not necessarily mean every workout] and eat to fuel growth. Stop making shit so complicated man.

Sorry, I just wanted to make sure the routine Im doing now is fine. Alright, I’ll give it a go and bust my ass. Thank you, I needed a wake up call =)

See, this is the kind of thing that burns my ass about people who post on this site.

You post a routine, myself aside, you get more than a few knowledgeable people telling you what you have is not ideal, and then one person posts (not to take anything away from da flash) and you post something like this.

Look dude, if you just want somebody to cup your balls and tell you you’re good enough and smart enough, I’m sure you’re parents will do just fine.

Otherwise, don’t post shit like this unless you are willing to consider the feedback you receive.[/quote]

I think everyone here was basiclly saying the same thing. Find a program, focus on the basics, don’t fuck with the setup and bust your ass. He wants to run ws4sb. Awesome. It’s a fun, tough, results producing program that teaches you to focus on the basics while allowing a bit of variety. 5/3/1 seems like the en vogue thing to do right now, so that’s cool, but to me a kid who barely pulls 3 plates doesn’t need to take 10% off of his max and work from there, he needs to get under the bar and lift heavy while being responsible in his approach, whatever that approach may be.

37

[quote]Stuntman Mike wrote:

Aww it’s ok big guy, you wanna join me for a set of abz while cutting from 165-145 while training our obliques?

It’ll chear ya up[/quote]

I’m there. I would love to have that sweet looking oblique line when I wear my jeans low.

What do I need to do to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club?

38

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I think everyone here was basiclly saying the same thing. Find a program, focus on the basics, don’t fuck with the setup and bust your ass. He wants to run ws4sb. Awesome. It’s a fun, tough, results producing program that teaches you to focus on the basics while allowing a bit of variety. 5/3/1 seems like the en vogue thing to do right now, so that’s cool, but to me a kid who barely pulls 3 plates doesn’t need to take 10% off of his max and work from there, he needs to get under the bar and lift heavy while being responsible in his approach, whatever that approach may be.[/quote]

I can live with that…