…ofcourse i know what christianity is; it’s irrational! For crying out loud, you believe the Adam and Eve story is factual instead of fictional, and you want to be taken seriously?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
…ofcourse i know what christianity is; it’s irrational! For crying out loud, you believe the Adam and Eve story is factual instead of fictional, and you want to be taken seriously?
[/quote]
No, your understanding and perspective of it is irrational.
OOOHH - I’m irrational because you say so . . .
Well, you’re a pink three-toed sloth with purple toenails!!!
Come on - make some serious points or quite wasting time.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
[/quote]
To be fair, Irish, what Ephrem was describing sounds a lot more like Catholic doctrine than that adhered to by whichever subspecies of Christianity you happen to practice.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Yes, another good question - I like your line of reasoning too - good linear progression.
Yes, I believe the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden to be a true and historical fact.
However - I only find support in scripture for a concept of original sin that allows that the original (first sin) was committed by Adam (not be Eve) and this introduced sin into the world - but, and this is very important - it did not automatically condemn every subsequent person to hell.
The doctrine of original sin posits the classical line “in Adam’s fall we sinned all” - this is not supported by scripture.
But to answer your primary question - Yes, Genesis is true.[/quote]
OK, wow.
Yes, it didn’t condemn people to hell because that was a concept absent from the OT; Jesus introduced it, correct?
I know people go on a lot about the horrors of the OT but for me, it doesn’t even get close to the horrors described in the NT. The awfuls things done in the OT are on a human (albeit biblical) scale. The awful things in the NT as I see it are far further reaching.
I’ll explain why, and it starts with the concept of hell. In real life we have crimes, and we have punishments. The worse the crime, the worse the punishment. But punishments are always finite. This seems fair because a crime is only ever finite. But the NT introduces us to the concept of an eternal punishment for a finite sin; and there is no scale or cline of punishment either. Do any of the sins with out repenting and you are damned.
I find this to be an awfully heavy handed way of going about things to say the very least!
So hell is bad. But I think there is a greater terror in the NT, for me at least. The benign dictator and the eternal praise. It was only after I read 1984 that I fully grasped this concept. If you are a good Christian (theoretically, by whatever standards required to get in to heaven) you are there forever. Eternal praise. You know nothing else. You have to love this being, and if you actually do love it, then this is a trap from which you can never escape. This to me is the ultimate and scariest form of bondage and slavery; a willing form.
Say that everything you believe to be true, is true. I would fight against this god with everything I have, for the alternative is more terrifying than the thought of hell.
I’m interested in your thoughts on this.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
To be fair, Irish, what Ephrem was describing sounds a lot more like Catholic doctrine than that adhered to by whichever subspecies of Christianity you happen to practice.[/quote]
to be fair to me - I don’t belong to a sub-species of Christianity. I have a clear lineage of doctrine going back to the apostles, I am Baptist by definition of the Eight Baptist Distinctives - but I am follower of Christ, not of man . . .
I cannot answer for Catholics - because I am not one - I can give you responses based on Scripture - but if you are expecting me to defend a doctrine that is not mine - it won’t happen.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
OK, wow.
Yes, it didn’t condemn people to hell because that was a concept absent from the OT; Jesus introduced it, correct?
I know people go on a lot about the horrors of the OT but for me, it doesn’t even get close to the horrors described in the NT. The awfuls things done in the OT are on a human (albeit biblical) scale. The awful things in the NT as I see it are far further reaching.
I’ll explain why, and it starts with the concept of hell. In real life we have crimes, and we have punishments. The worse the crime, the worse the punishment. But punishments are always finite. This seems fair because a crime is only ever finite. But the NT introduces us to the concept of an eternal punishment for a finite sin; and there is no scale or cline of punishment either. Do any of the sins with out repenting and you are damned.
I find this to be an awfully heavy handed way of going about things to say the very least!
So hell is bad. But I think there is a greater terror in the NT, for me at least. The benign dictator and the eternal praise. It was only after I read 1984 that I fully grasped this concept. If you are a good Christian (theoretically, by whatever standards required to get in to heaven) you are there forever. Eternal praise. You know nothing else. You have to love this being, and if you actually do love it, then this is a trap from which you can never escape. This to me is the ultimate and scariest form of bondage and slavery; a willing form.
Say that everything you believe to be true, is true. I would fight against this god with everything I have, for the alternative is more terrifying than the thought of hell.
I’m interested in your thoughts on this.
[/quote]
No, Jesus did not introduce the concept of original sin either . . . The concept of original sin (that Adam’s sin has condemned all men to hell is not biblically supported. The typical passages in Romans used to establish this doctrine are taken from context - do you want to explore this doctrine further?
I agree with you - if God is who the Catholics and Protestants (think Catholic lite) say he is - then you have every reason to be scared of a deity that would condemn people to hell for something they had no ability to affect and who did nothing to receive that condemnation . . .
Now - for the discussion of what heaven would be like (you really scared me with that mental picture), we can delve into that, but I think we would be skipping a bunch of important doctrines - including completing the discussion on original sin.
Oh and by the way - scripture intimates that hell does have levels of suffering.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I have a clear lineage of doctrine going back to the apostles
[/quote]
Funny, that’s just what the Catholics say.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
I have a clear lineage of doctrine going back to the apostles
Funny, that’s just what the Catholics say.[/quote]
Heck yeah!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I don’t belong to a sub-species of Christianity.
[/quote]
I’d say you’re going out on a limb with that statement.
TAXONOMY OF BAPTIST CHURCH
Kingdom: Religion
Phylum: Monotheistic
Class: Judaic
Family: Messianic
Order: Christian
Genus: Apostolic
Species: Protestant
Subspecies: Baptist
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
I don’t belong to a sub-species of Christianity.
I’d say you’re going out on a limb with that statement.[/quote]
That’s a really purty picture . . . not sure why you brought it up . . . does it make you feel better that you have a denominational tree planted in your mental garden?
Maybe it was my statement about the 8 Baptist Distinctive? Just because they agree with me, doesn’t make me one of them . . .
Perhaps, I can make my point clearer for you . . . i’m not on your tree . . . good luck with that though . . .
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
I have a clear lineage of doctrine going back to the apostles
Funny, that’s just what the Catholics say.[/quote]
Sorry - but there isn’t anything clear about Catholic doctrine (no offense to my Catholic Brothers out there) - especially given the confusion it seems to have caused you and Ephrem
but hey - thanks for picking on the Catholics again
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
I have a clear lineage of doctrine going back to the apostles
Funny, that’s just what the Catholics say.
Sorry - but there isn’t anything clear about Catholic doctrine (no offense to my Catholic Brothers out there) - especially given the confusion it seems to have caused you and Ephrem
but hey - thanks for picking on the Catholics again[/quote]
Ain’t pickin’ on the Catholics. A Catholic lady once explained to me that Catholic doctrine goes back to the apostles (Peter, to be exact), and the fact that Sloth (one of your Catholic Brothers) agreed with my statement indicates to me that they still believe this.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Perhaps, I can make my point clearer for you . . . i’m not on your tree . . . good luck with that though . . .[/quote]
That’s cool. I’m not on the tree, either.
And on a lighter note,
The Taxonomy of Religion Based on Fecal Occurrence
TAOISM: Shit happens.
CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: “shit happens.”
BUDDHISM: Shit doesn’t really happen. It is only called shit happening.
ZEN: What is the sound of one shit happening?
SIKHISM: Cut that shit out, or we’ll cut it out of you!
HINDUISM: This shit has happened before.
PLATONISM: This shit will happen again.
JAINISM: When it happens, shit gently. Don’t hurt the shit.
SHINTO: If shit happens, put a flower in it. Make a pretty offering.
HARE KRISHNA: …shit happens, shit happens, shit happens…
MOONIES: Only happy shit really happens.
WICCA: Shit happens if you will it to happen.
ISLAM: Shit happens because Allah wills it.
SUFISM: Even though shit happens, Allah wants you to dance.
PROTESTANTISM: Let shit happen to someone else.
JUDAISM: Why does this shit always happen to us?
CATHOLICISM: You deserve this shit.
VATICAN II: If shit happens, blame the clergy.
PRESBYTERIANISM: Shit should happen decently and in good order.
CALVINISM: Shit is predestined to happen because you don’t work hard enough.
7TH DAY ADVENTISM: No shit on Saturdays.
TORONTO BLESSING: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, shit happens, ha-ha-ha-ha…
ANGLICANISM: Scripture contains all things necessary to deal with shit happening.
ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM: We still favor happenings of state-supported shit.
FUNDAMENTALISM: Unless you’re one of us, you’re shit.
BAPTIST: Shit won’t happen for you until you’re totally immersed in it.
PENTECOSTAL: Shit happens! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!
METAPHYSICS: In terms of materialistic ontogeny, we’re all shit.
NEW AGE: When shit happens, channel it. Visualise shit happening.
FEMINISM: Shit happening is an act of the Goddess.
FEMINIST SEPARATISM: When shit happens, blame men.
MEN’S MOVEMENT: Drums & fire make shit happen hot & loud.
RASTAFARIANISM: Let’s smoke this shit!
EXISTENTIALISM: Shit is, therefore it happens.
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES: If you just let me in, I’ll tell you why shit happens.
MORMONISM: If shit happens, make sure you have a 2-year food supply.
RAJNEESH: For $1000, shit can happen for you, too.
HEDONISM: There’s nothing like a good shit happening!
STOICISM: This shit is good for me.
ZOROASTRIANISM: Bad shit happens half the time. The rest of the time, it’s good.
PARSI: Don’t burn that shit, fire is sacred!
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE: This shit is all in your mind.
BAHA’I: Shit happens to everyone alike.
UNITARIANISM: If there is a shit, let it happen to each in his/her own way.
AGNOSTICISM: Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn’t
APATHY: Who gives a shit?
ATHEISM: No shit!
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Perhaps, I can make my point clearer for you . . . i’m not on your tree . . . good luck with that though . . .
That’s cool. I’m not on the tree, either.
[/quote]
excellent - means you have an open mind to understanding the Bible, I hope?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And on a lighter note,
The Taxonomy of Religion Based on Fecal Occurrence
TAOISM: Shit happens.
CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: “shit happens.”
BUDDHISM: Shit doesn’t really happen. It is only called shit happening.
ZEN: What is the sound of one shit happening?
SIKHISM: Cut that shit out, or we’ll cut it out of you!
HINDUISM: This shit has happened before.
PLATONISM: This shit will happen again.
JAINISM: When it happens, shit gently. Don’t hurt the shit.
SHINTO: If shit happens, put a flower in it. Make a pretty offering.
HARE KRISHNA: …shit happens, shit happens, shit happens…
MOONIES: Only happy shit really happens.
WICCA: Shit happens if you will it to happen.
ISLAM: Shit happens because Allah wills it.
SUFISM: Even though shit happens, Allah wants you to dance.
PROTESTANTISM: Let shit happen to someone else.
JUDAISM: Why does this shit always happen to us?
CATHOLICISM: You deserve this shit.
VATICAN II: If shit happens, blame the clergy.
PRESBYTERIANISM: Shit should happen decently and in good order.
CALVINISM: Shit is predestined to happen because you don’t work hard enough.
7TH DAY ADVENTISM: No shit on Saturdays.
TORONTO BLESSING: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, shit happens, ha-ha-ha-ha…
ANGLICANISM: Scripture contains all things necessary to deal with shit happening.
ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM: We still favor happenings of state-supported shit.
FUNDAMENTALISM: Unless you’re one of us, you’re shit.
BAPTIST: Shit won’t happen for you until you’re totally immersed in it.
PENTECOSTAL: Shit happens! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!
METAPHYSICS: In terms of materialistic ontogeny, we’re all shit.
NEW AGE: When shit happens, channel it. Visualise shit happening.
FEMINISM: Shit happening is an act of the Goddess.
FEMINIST SEPARATISM: When shit happens, blame men.
MEN’S MOVEMENT: Drums & fire make shit happen hot & loud.
RASTAFARIANISM: Let’s smoke this shit!
EXISTENTIALISM: Shit is, therefore it happens.
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES: If you just let me in, I’ll tell you why shit happens.
MORMONISM: If shit happens, make sure you have a 2-year food supply.
RAJNEESH: For $1000, shit can happen for you, too.
HEDONISM: There’s nothing like a good shit happening!
STOICISM: This shit is good for me.
ZOROASTRIANISM: Bad shit happens half the time. The rest of the time, it’s good.
PARSI: Don’t burn that shit, fire is sacred!
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE: This shit is all in your mind.
BAHA’I: Shit happens to everyone alike.
UNITARIANISM: If there is a shit, let it happen to each in his/her own way.
AGNOSTICISM: Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn’t
APATHY: Who gives a shit?
ATHEISM: No shit![/quote]
ROTF LMAO - I love this, have it hanging in my office!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Perhaps, I can make my point clearer for you . . . i’m not on your tree . . . good luck with that though . . .
That’s cool. I’m not on the tree, either.
excellent - means you have an open mind to understanding the Bible, I hope?[/quote]
Absolutely.
…if i don’t know what it is, then how can i not like it? Besides, over 1100 recognized branches of christianity exist, so what kind of christian are you?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
…if i don’t know what it is, then how can i not like it? Besides, over 1100 recognized branches of christianity exist, so what kind of christian are you?
[/quote]
the true kind . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
…if i don’t know what it is, then how can i not like it? Besides, over 1100 recognized branches of christianity exist, so what kind of christian are you?
the true kind . . .[/quote]
…lol, then there must be untrue kinds of christians as well, eh? You can’t even agree on what to believe is true within the same religion, and you deny something that has been proven to be true? Yeah, that makes sense…