[quote]Jab1 wrote:
Ah how nice of him. He provided one of my best friends with an abusive father and terminal cancer at 16.
God provides me with nothing.
[/quote]
You’re not saying the right prayers. I got one that’ll get you gold front’s and spinners by the morning.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Good old judgmental Christians. You never let me down![/quote]
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
[quote]Christine wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Good old judgmental Christians. You never let me down!
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.[/quote]
Well, I didn’t threaten to invade New Zealand. So, I think I’m within bounds of the peace thing.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Honestly, here’s what I’d suggest for you. Determine whichever ones allow for rather hedonistic behavior. Write the names of the religions down on some scraps of paper and place them in a hat. Close your eyes and draw one of the slips of paper out. Read off your new religion.
I found a perfect one, the god who is this undead zombie guy or whatever he is suggests to “take no thought for the morrow”. Awesome, I’ll do whatever I want because he’s going to come and save me. So I don’t need to save money, or get an education or plant crops, I’ll just do whatever I want right now!
A zombie is a soulless, reanimated, putrid, automaton with only one desire…eating your brain like a ripe watermelon on a hot SW Florida day.! Obviously, this is totally different from the resurrected Christ! Now what?
Well, I don’t do any of what you mentioned above and God provided me a new pick up with rear window gun rack already mounted, got me through the 8th grade (but still managed to get me into an ivy leaque school with all expenses paid, just because he can), and just this morning a whole crop of butternut squash appeared on my property. Life is good.
Ah how nice of him. He provided one of my best friends with an abusive father and terminal cancer at 16.
God provides me with nothing.
[/quote]
This is wrong, He provides you with existence and opportunity. Anything else and you would take him for granted. I would rather be forsaken and have my children grow up strong, then to have then take me for granted, and grow up weak and reliant on my good deeds.
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
This is wrong, He provides you with existence and opportunity. Anything else and you would take him for granted. I would rather be forsaken and have my children grow up strong, then to have then take me for granted, and grow up weak and reliant on my good deeds.
V
[/quote]
Actually you’re wrong. The Flying Spaghetti monster provided me (and you) with existence and opportunity.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
This is wrong, He provides you with existence and opportunity. Anything else and you would take him for granted.[/quote]
If that’s the case, why do people bother to pray? No reason to ask for blessings if your god gives you nothing beyond existence and opportunity.
Speaking of which, what about the millions of people that never receive even basic existence and opportunity (killed during childbirth, born brain dead, etc.)? Does their god not care about them?
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
This is the best way to understand the Christian god. True.
The Bible is one of the primary reasons why I detest Christianity and religion in general (as is the Qu’ran). It is also far, far easier to criticise Christianity when you’ve read the Bible. It practically writes all your material for you.
OH reaaallly. Care to take me on? I’ll be your huckleberry . . . .
Is it fair that finite crimes (sins) get punished with infinite torment? Is Jesus moral for telling us about this?
I deny the existence of the holy spirit. But I am a good person and live a good life, is it fair that I am damned to eternal torment?[/quote]
Before we begin - are we discussing this from a position that holds scripture to be infallible (without error) for argument’s sake? - it is important to know the playing field . . .
[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Same challenge - bring it 
Don’t you agree that the god of the old testament is jealous, petty, vindictive, capricious, and cruel? He gets a much needed facelift in the new testament, thank…god.[/quote]
As I mentioned in the other post - if we are to have this discussion, we need to know what the ground rules are.
Are we discussing from a position that accepts scripture as infallible? Are we discussing from a position that holds scripture is just mythology? It’s important to know the context because that affects quite a bit about the discussion.
For example, if we are going to hold that scripture is literal - that will affect a lot of the interpretations. If we hold it is figurative a lot of things - for example miracles - go out the window.
The pre-suppositions made about the bible by most people completely change how it is read and understood.
So in what context are we to discuss this?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
This is the best way to understand the Christian god. True.
The Bible is one of the primary reasons why I detest Christianity and religion in general (as is the Qu’ran). It is also far, far easier to criticise Christianity when you’ve read the Bible. It practically writes all your material for you.
OH reaaallly. Care to take me on? I’ll be your huckleberry . . . .
Is it fair that finite crimes (sins) get punished with infinite torment? Is Jesus moral for telling us about this?
I deny the existence of the holy spirit. But I am a good person and live a good life, is it fair that I am damned to eternal torment?
Before we begin - are we discussing this from a position that holds scripture to be infallible (without error) for argument’s sake? - it is important to know the playing field . . .[/quote]
To be honest, I never know. I’m at a loss as to how people seem to never agree on what the Bible is saying. As far as I’m concerned if you claim to believe in Jesus and the Bible then you are taking on board everything he says and that is written. If you disagree with stuff, then good, I desperately worry about the sanity of literalists, although “interpreters” are probably more hypocritical and consumed by double-think.
Church of Satan.
If you read the “Book of Satan” in the “Satanic Bible” it actually makes a lot of sense for modern society.
I bought the “Satanic Bible” after a friend I know converted to Satanism, instead of judging him, I decided to read up on it for myself.
LR
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
To be honest, I never know. I’m at a loss as to how people seem to never agree on what the Bible is saying. As far as I’m concerned if you claim to believe in Jesus and the Bible then you are taking on board everything he says and that is written. If you disagree with stuff, then good, I desperately worry about the sanity of literalists, although “interpreters” are probably more hypocritical and consumed by double-think.[/quote]
Fair enough - trust me - I’ve run into all types during my lifetime, from legalists, to literalists to apologists . . it gets crazy . . .
OK- well how about this, let’s pick a specific question or issues that you have with the bible and then I will lay out the presuppositions, explanations and conclusion, and we can discuss where the real issue lies and see if that doesn’t help at least bring some clearer understanding to the whole paradigm. of course - the answers I give will be mine - but I bet I can help clear up a lot of misunderstanding if you give me an opportunity.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Vegita wrote:
This is wrong, He provides you with existence and opportunity. Anything else and you would take him for granted.
If that’s the case, why do people bother to pray? No reason to ask for blessings if your god gives you nothing beyond existence and opportunity.
Speaking of which, what about the millions of people that never receive even basic existence and opportunity (killed during childbirth, born brain dead, etc.)? Does their god not care about them?[/quote]
You really need to think long and hard about omnipotence, Omniscience, omnipresence, etc… To imply that god cares about some and does not care about others one must look at what caring means.
Care - to have an inclination, liking, fondness, or affection (usually fol. by for): Would you care for dessert? I don’t care for him very much
So to imply that god has a liking for something must imply that he has a dislike for something as well. For he can’t like all things, or he would also like the situation of a baby born during birth. And to imply that god has a dislike for something, one must assume that god does not have the power to change things he dislikes, If he did have the power to change things he disliked, then everything in existance would be things god liked, back again to the very real situations where babies die.
Another possibility is that god is not actually good, but instead indifferent, he doesn’t care if people live or die, he doesnt care period, he already knows all outcomes of all things so what would there be to care about. Also god doesn’t ask people to pray, people tell people to pray. God has never told me to pray, and I don’t believe accounts of other people, If god is all powerful he has no reason to communicate to me through a really really old book, which isn’t even written in a language I can read. So know I have to trust origional human authors, then further trust more human translators etc…
If god really wanted me to pray, I think he would simply ask me to. And also, how could god WANT anything, Simply the act of wanting, means you lack something. the notion of god implies he does not lack anything, therefore he cannot want, and i’m sure if god didn’t have everything, and he did in fact want something, it wouldn’t be for me to pray. It’s really a silly notion.
V
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
To be honest, I never know. I’m at a loss as to how people seem to never agree on what the Bible is saying. As far as I’m concerned if you claim to believe in Jesus and the Bible then you are taking on board everything he says and that is written. If you disagree with stuff, then good, I desperately worry about the sanity of literalists, although “interpreters” are probably more hypocritical and consumed by double-think.
Fair enough - trust me - I’ve run into all types during my lifetime, from legalists, to literalists to apologists . . it gets crazy . . .
OK- well how about this, let’s pick a specific question or issues that you have with the bible and then I will lay out the presuppositions, explanations and conclusion, and we can discuss where the real issue lies and see if that doesn’t help at least bring some clearer understanding to the whole paradigm. of course - the answers I give will be mine - but I bet I can help clear up a lot of misunderstanding if you give me an opportunity.[/quote]
OK, well since I mentioned it before, lets start with the “unforgiveable sin”;
3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
It seems pretty unambiguous to me. I will happily deny the holy ghost/spirit, and to be honest if he/she/it did/does exist then I would/don’t really care for it or like it at all. Am I doomed to eternal damnation?
Is it fair that I get damned to hell for all eternity for saying I don’t believe in something I have no evidence for?
There is another side to this; the implication that it is moral or just to forgive murderers, rapists, etc. but I’m mainly interested in the first bit.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
OK, well since I mentioned it before, lets start with the “unforgiveable sin”;
3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
It seems pretty unambiguous to me. I will happily deny the holy ghost/spirit, and to be honest if he/she/it did/does exist then I would/don’t really care for it or like it at all. Am I doomed to eternal damnation?
Is it fair that I get damned to hell for all eternity for saying I don’t believe in something I have no evidence for?
There is another side to this; the implication that it is moral or just to forgive murderers, rapists, etc. but I’m mainly interested in the first bit.[/quote]
That’s a great one! OK, starting off, let’s throw in the basic biblical pre-supposition - everyone has sinned and is condemned to pay for their own sins. SO, that is the natural state of everyone.
The context of the particular passage involves the Pharisees (twisted bunch of religious legalists) who saw a miracle that Christ had performed (and his power was given by the Holy Spirit) and claimed that he had performed the miracle with the power of Satan. Now that’s a pretty big deal - accusing the Son of God to be in league with Satan . . .scary right? . . .ok, so what Jesus tells them is that anyone who knows the truth (he is using the power of the Holy Spirit) and claims that the Holy Spirit is actually the power of Satan can only be someone who will not receive forgiveness and is in danger of dying at any moment in a condemned state . . .
now understand, - this was a unique set of circumstances - here was the Son of God walking around doing miracles - (assume with me for the purpose of argument that the whole thing is true or even your question would be pointless, ok?) - miracles that the Pharisees knew were genuine miracles of God and they (to retain control over the people - haven’t we seen a few of their kind today too?) decided to accuse Jesus of being in league with the evilest of all creatures to discredit him before the people - knowingly having seen the work of the Holy Ghost and calling it the Work of the Devil - that is the blasphemy. It is a blasphemy we cannot commit today, because these specific events will not be repeated before us.
However, there is a correlation to our lives today - and an important one.
Since Christ is the source of our free salvation- if you say he is doing the work of Satan, how could you possibly accept him as your savior? this is the closest you can get to Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost - but this can have the same affect - It is this denial of Christ, according to scripture, that condemns all unrepentant/unsaved men to eternal damnation - as long as they deny God’s work on their behalf, they cannot accept his salvation.
Now, back to my earlier presupposition - since man is already condemned, if he purposefully rejects the witness of God’s work he is going to die in his sins and be eternally condemned.
So, no you will not be eternally damned, according to scripture, for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but for not accepting Christ’s free offer of salvation. It is the state you are already in . . . and you have done nothing to change it.
Hope I was clear enough in the explanation - i am bit tired tonite - long week.
…i must admit, christianity is the greatest and most succesful con in the history of mankind. Let’s see:
you convince people that people are utterly flawed from the onset, and that the female counterpart is to blame
then you tell people that the god that made you sent a part of him to earth, and that this son of god died for you in order to absolve you from the flaws
altough this happened, nothing you do or say will ever change the fact you are flawed
the only way to be perfect in heaven after death is to believe and do everything this holy book says, and what the priest says, and what the capo di tutti capi priest in Rome says, because if you don’t you will burn in hell for eternity
you also tell the people that this god loves them, that this god is love, that this god wants nothing more than the best for his people, but if you don’t do what his holy book commands of you he becomes vengeful, jealous, angry and will exact his wrath upon thee with great vengeance!
oh yeah, and if you do something wrong, just say your sorry and you’re forgiven. Doesn’t mean you should stop doing what you did wrong, just be sorry. This gives everybody an out, because this con needs to be cohesive for it to work properly
and ofcourse, dissent is frowned upon. Don’t think, just believe and you’ll be allright
tithe! god needs money, and a lot of it
…i could go on, but you get the picture…
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
So, no you will not be eternally damned, according to scripture, for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but for not accepting Christ’s free offer of salvation. It is the state you are already in . . . and you have done nothing to change it.
Hope I was clear enough in the explanation - i am bit tired tonite - long week.[/quote]
Yes, good explanation and one I’ve never heard someone else make; they (other Christians) usually say something along the lines of “oh you’re not really damned, you can still repent” (if they are moderate) or if they are hardcore then they look at me with sad eyes.
OK so to continue with the sin theme, and original sin; presumably you think the Adam and Eve story is true, because if it was allegorical there would be no original sin?
This is one area where I find a lot of moderate Christians to be hypocritical; they believe in Jesus and in original sin, but they think of genesis as being just stories. Clearly Jesus’ whole existence doesn’t make sense unless within the context of Genesis being true? Thoughts?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Christine wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Good old judgmental Christians. You never let me down!
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
Well, I didn’t threaten to invade New Zealand. So, I think I’m within bounds of the peace thing.[/quote]
No one actually knows where NZ is.
Some good discussion in here. Now I have to go back and read all of it.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i must admit, christianity is the greatest and most succesful con in the history of mankind. Let’s see:
you convince people that people are utterly flawed from the onset, and that the female counterpart is to blame
then you tell people that the god that made you sent a part of him to earth, and that this son of god died for you in order to absolve you from the flaws
altough this happened, nothing you do or say will ever change the fact you are flawed
the only way to be perfect in heaven after death is to believe and do everything this holy book says, and what the priest says, and what the capo di tutti capi priest in Rome says, because if you don’t you will burn in hell for eternity
you also tell the people that this god loves them, that this god is love, that this god wants nothing more than the best for his people, but if you don’t do what his holy book commands of you he becomes vengeful, jealous, angry and will exact his wrath upon thee with great vengeance!
oh yeah, and if you do something wrong, just say your sorry and you’re forgiven. Doesn’t mean you should stop doing what you did wrong, just be sorry. This gives everybody an out, because this con needs to be cohesive for it to work properly
and ofcourse, dissent is frowned upon. Don’t think, just believe and you’ll be allright
tithe! god needs money, and a lot of it
…i could go on, but you get the picture…[/quote]
wow - a derogatory comment couched in terms of concern for your fellow man - yeah . . . and then twist it all up in a bunch of mish-mash mumbo jumbo that doesn’t even begin to make any coherent sense or give a reasoned view of the topics you toss willy-nilly into the air- and don;t blame anyone else for the screwed-up perspective in your own head . . .
Here’s the best response to this garbage that I can give based on my faith . . .
People are not flawed from the beginning . . .
It was not Eve’s fault . . .
Yes, God provided a way for the redemption of man - who chose his fate . . .
We are not flawed from the onset . . .
There is no man between the believer and Christ . . .
God punishes evil and only evil because he is just . . .he’s not punishing you right now because he is merciful
True repentance requires a change of behavior . . .if the behavior did not change, then the repentance was false . . .
No wonder you don;t like Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . .
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
Yes, good explanation and one I’ve never heard someone else make; they (other Christians) usually say something along the lines of “oh you’re not really damned, you can still repent” (if they are moderate) or if they are hardcore then they look at me with sad eyes.
OK so to continue with the sin theme, and original sin; presumably you think the Adam and Eve story is true, because if it was allegorical there would be no original sin?
This is one area where I find a lot of moderate Christians to be hypocritical; they believe in Jesus and in original sin, but they think of genesis as being just stories. Clearly Jesus’ whole existence doesn’t make sense unless within the context of Genesis being true? Thoughts?[/quote]
Yes, another good question - I like your line of reasoning too - good linear progression.
Yes, I believe the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden to be a true and historical fact.
However - I only find support in scripture for a concept of original sin that allows that the original (first sin) was committed by Adam (not be Eve) and this introduced sin into the world - but, and this is very important - it did not automatically condemn every subsequent person to hell.
The doctrine of original sin posits the classical line “in Adam’s fall we sinned all” - this is not supported by scripture.
But to answer your primary question - Yes, Genesis is true.