Yea, if you do it every year until you die.
I’d imagine much less than that would potentially reduce your life expectancy. AAS are anything but safe or healthy. Just the accepted risk that everyone takes when starting this stuff.
Just look at smoking. People who currently smoke, even if it is only a cigarette a day, are at a higher risk of disease than people who used to smoke heavily, but didnt develop any diseases during that time, and have since quit.
You mention supraphysiological levels. Again, this is just me picking your brain and by no means arguing or disagreeing.
But 200mg can put people anywhere between 1200-2000 TT. 1500 and below at one point was a relatively normal level for men years ago, was it not?
Just trying to wrap my head around the “200mg vs 150mg” being that significant of a difference, and such a line drawn in the sand to say one is okay and one is surely taking some time off your life.
@Singhbuilder @blshaw I respect the hell out of you guys for your honesty.
2 Likes
I’ve heard this on the TV commercials but I’ve never seen any evidence to support it. TRT has been around for decades but I never heard of it until about 10 years ago either for whatever it’s worth. I’ve always seen the reference range as 300-1100ng/dL give or take, depending on the lab. I’ve also never seen any study or even anecdotal evidence that would indicate that any particular level of T would cause an early death. I suspect it’s like most things - some people smoke and die at 50, others smoke and are still around at 90. Luck of the genes. Men tend to die earlier than women and there is, I believe, some evidence to indicate that the effects of testosterone on the male body contribute to this so it is not unreasonable to think high doses of TRT could shorten your life but again, I’ve seen no actual evidence to that effect.
Over on the TRT forum I’ve seen a lot of people talking about needing an AI due to high E2 levels at 200mg but everyone is different. There are all sorts of people having trouble dialing it in. A lot of guys have trouble such as low libido or ED or becoming anorgasmic because their hormone levels are out of wack. My doc wants me around 600ng/mL. I find that a bit low. Well, not that it would be low if it were my natural level. But if I’m going to go through the trouble of being on TRT I would prefer 800-900ng/dL. BUT (there is always a caveat) - my insurance pays for my doctor visits, lab work, and testosterone. I could go to a T clinic or to one of the online docs and get them to prescribe higher doses but then I’d probably be paying out of pocket which I’d rather not.
2 Likes
And while we’re talking about taking years off of your life, let’s remember that most of those old bodybuilders from the 60s and 70s are still around and in their 70s. I know plenty of guys who never touched any T or steroids who died in their 40s and 50s. Hell a guy at work was 43 and told his wife he didn’t feel good so he was going to take a shower and then take a nap. An hour later she noticed the shower still running and went up to check and he was dead in the shower, never made it out. And my wife’s cousin passed at 44. Her dad was in his 50s. My grandfather was 56. None of those people were doing steroids or T. But they were all smokers and several of them were overweight. So pick your poison. Nobody lives forever.
1 Like
Absolutely nothing is guaranteed. Pretty much exactly why I decided to go for it. I could drop dead at any time. At some point, happiness is more important than longevity. If you feel better and are happier, what’s 5 years at the end of your life when you’re already old?
1 Like
Just do whatever you want then because no one knows right? Also, a lot of those guys did die, and on top of that they generally came off (if one takes their word for it instead of one’s own opinion).
1 Like
Yes, after having at least one, if not multiple heart bypasses (not all but majority of BB’ers).
All we can do is speculate and you will not know how long you can live with or without AAS. We are all mature here and wise enough to decide for ourselves if a few lbs of muscle is worth the potential risks. No study or anecdotal evidence can make that decision for you.
SB
2 Likes
No… we have adequate data to indicate high dose AAS use greatly increases the chances of a premature death.
We have (somewhat flawed) but still legitimate data regarding what it does to you’re cardiovascular system on a structural, cellular and functional level. The same can be said about the kidneys, brain, liver, testis, vascular functioning, adrenal glands and more
2 Likes
What would you honestly consider supra physiological levels? In my early 20s, I’ve had blood work come back >1500. That was the upper limit. My doctor even asked if i was on steroids, but I was 140lbs, and definitely not.
Some guys take 200mg and aren’t even at 1,000, would you still consider that dosage to be dangerous then? Or do you consider the test levels to be what is dangerous, not necessarily the dosage?
Depends where it gets you to. If it’s getting you to 500-1000ng/dl (exception to the norm) then it’s… just normal
But define “high dose AAS use”. A number of athletes have keeled over and died at young ages but most of them were not only on significantly higher doses of AAS than most of us would ever consider but a whole witches brew of other drugs as well that negatively impacted their health. Would that include basic TRT? Would that include periodic mild cycles? Would it include running TRT at a higher than typical dose like 200mg? What about a standard 100mg dose of testosterone supplemented with 25mg of Proviron? There are limitless possible combinations. As far as I can tell, the risk is essentially unknown. Not that that provides a lot of consolation but it’s not the same as saying you’re automatically going to die young if you use AAS or supraphysiological T.
Personally, if I were younger and my T levels were normal, I would not consider TRT or AAS as it appears that the risk of damaging my body’s natural ability to produce and regulate its hormones is too great. But I’m older and was already naturally suffering from low T so that point was moot. In my view, the question is not “is my risk higher on TRT than it would be if I were not on TRT?” but rather, “is my risk higher on TRT than it would be if my T levels were normal in he first place?”. I see no reason that it should be but if so, why and how much? And how much would it increase if I were to say increase from 600ng/dL to 900ng/dL of testosterone? Those are the questions I want to ask and there do not appear to be answers to those questions at this point.
Personally I would say, stop looking at numbers for Testosterone. Use a low enough dose for you to feel good and keep cholesterol and BP in check. You dont have to be at the upper end of the range if you feel good mid range or low range even. If at 200mg your LDL/HDL and blood pressure are in check, then good for you, go ahead. But no one here can tell you whats a healthy number with the minimum risks.
SB
1 Like
There’s likely more folks on 200mg/week than all other dosages combined.
There’s very few people that take 100mg. Even on this forum.
2 Likes
Honestly I have no idea but I would have thought 100-150mg would be more common. Maybe not here in these forums but most guys are not going to be on these forums anyway.
High dose to me constitutes at 600mg+
I’m almost certain my antics at this age will cause me to kneel over in my 30s, I know it’s almost certainly not true, that I’m just anxious… but when I think about the sheer magnitude of health ailments I’ve acquired I can’t be so sure… and the autonomic dysfunction I have…
The forums are full of folks that have issues on the usual 200mg/week that most clinics prescribe. Most folks get on TRT, have no clue about anything and pound their wife more. Others have issues, come here and find out about estrogen and then spend 6 months realizing there’s more to it than that.
1 Like
Idk, for me to get my BP and lipids out of whack I’d probably have to be on 400mg+ for a prolonged period of time. But my sympathetic nervous system (esp heart rate) would go fucking nuts, thus increasing long (and short) term risk for cardiovascular complications… or not, I’m on beta blockers so I never notice it anymore unless I skip doses. very POTS esque (normal for people with fibromyalgia)