There was a scientist on one of the Joe Rogan podcast episodes explaining the advantage doing steroids even 15 years ago gives athletes vs an athlete that has never used them. Something similar to muscle memory.
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Thankfully neither of those concern me. I have two kids, and my wife is in her 40s, so we absolutely do not want more. Sex has never been of much importance to me, however when on cycle, I want it MUCH more than when not on cycle. So I wouldn’t be “missing” much, unless it causes me to want it more like on cycle, and yet I couldn’t get it up. That would suck.
My only concern is health. I’d like to live long enough to see my kids reach their 30s or older. Hence why I’ve tried to keep things pretty damn mild with my cycles.
I personally waited to ever run a cycle until after we had both of our kids. No way I was willing to risk that.
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You look amazing right now brother, and if you dont plan on competing, stay away from TRT. If you do not have low T symptoms, forget about it because however you look at it, you WILL be taking years off your life running 200mg Testosterone, if you are not hypogonadal.
SB
I suppose the difficulty in all of this is the fact that it’s unethical to do studies (particularly the long term studies that this would require) and, until someone genuinely reaches their genetic potential then jumps on the gear (which is probably rare, waiting till absolute natty limit) then stops again but carries on lifting, it’s speculation (and even then just the occasional n=1).
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I wish I knew now what I didn’t know then. Hindsight right? That’s why I get so passionate sometimes about certain subjects here. I’m trying to help others avoid the mistakes I made. When I was researching before doing it all I kept hearing was ‘do it!’… ‘its awesome’… just a general bandwagon mentality.
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What about 190mg? What was the cut off
I’m 57, my son is grown, and I had a vasectomy years ago. I was naturally down to 300ng/dL total T and things were not working very well already (tired, inability to focus, low libido, mediocre erection quality, etc.) when I decided to start TRT. I didn’t do it for muscle gain though I certainly would not be unhappy if it has that effect as well. My doc is pretty conservative but everything works perfectly now on 75mg daily testosterone gel 1% (generic Androgel which keeps me around 620ng/dL) and 5mg daily Tadalafil. Like I’m 29 again. Not 17 maybe but 29 for sure. 
From the studies that I’m reading now it looks like they could fairly easily fix the fertility issue even if it meant you had to go in and get treatment while you and the wife were trying to get pregnant. I’m just starting my research now to learn more about the AAS side of things. I’m reading a lot of medical studies on the topic but also looking for personal experience and anecdotal evidence as the studies don’t tend to cover real word usage and long term results. I have no interest in being on gear all the time but if I could blast once a year and maintain an extra 15-20-lbs of lean mass year round, something close to my genetic potential, I might go for that.
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I almost certainly won’t ever be able to
LH/FSH was still in range after 6 months on TRT, implicating perhaps testicular pathology… doc said “no, if it was primary LH and FSH would be way over the ref range”… not entirely true, and a mix of primary/secondary can occur…
Both parents had fertility issues, it was a struggle for me to even be conceived IVF, THEN we I was born incredibly premature (I think slightly under 7 months old)… I’ve talked about this before though…
No ragrets for me
I appreciate the compliments, but those photos are while on cycle, I do not look that way when off. I feel and look deflated, confidence is back to the off cycle me, keep my head down and avoid any time of scenario where assertiveness or confrontation is necessary.
Why would it take years off for someone who is not hypogonadal, but will not for someone who is? I have tried to look up anything regarding longevity and life expectancy but obviously there’s not a whole lot out there for someone in my situation.
I see it as a quality of life thing. If I can live until 65 and have been satisfied, happy, confident, and the best version of myself… versus live to 75 and not be those things… it’s a no brainer. Now if there was a decent chance of dropping dead at 50, that’s concerning.
Running cycles and just getting older in general both will undoubtedly drop my T levels to where I would benefit from TRT eventually. So starting now, or say at age 40 when natural levels have tanked, it just seems like regardless it will be in the cards.
Huh? TRT doesn’t take years off your life… regardless if initial status is hypogonadal or not. TRT at 200mg for many will take a few years off though (depending on impact on lipids, haematological parameters, cardiovascular system etc. But for most HEALTHY men the impact would PROBABLY be fairly minimal… one can maintain a nice amount of muscle mass on such a dose
Also @NH_Watts Alphagunner just contacted me, wanted me to tell you he was days away from sending Physio 500$, I don’t have you’re email so I had to say it on here.
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The studies show that more cell nuclei are created as muscle cells grow and then are maintained essentially forever even when the muscles shrink from lack of use. Then, when you start working out again, they recover their former size and strength much quicker. That’s supposed to be the science behind the whole “muscle memory” thing.
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Yup and AAS use creates both more actual muscle fibres over time, thus theoretically AAS use could allow one (long term) to maintain a level of muscular mass slightly OVER ones genetic set point… seriously, once you use AAS there’s no going back, changes are lifelong
That’s a pretty high dose for TRT but the key is having your blood work checked often and making sure all of your hormones and blood work are dialed in, especially E2, cholesterol, hemoglobin, and hematocrit levels.
One pro body builder that I follow does a TRT regimen that consists of 140mg of Test-E and 140mg of primobolan per week. As best I could gather, his reasoning behind that is that the 140mg of Test-E is a normal therapeutic dose that doesn’t require an aromatase inhibitor and the primobolan is non-aromatizing and so does not require an AI either. The primobolan is about 2/3 as effective as testosterone so he gets the effect of about 233mg of testosterone without the trouble of trying to dial in an AI or worrying about his E2 levels.
I look at it as part of an overall health program. At the same time that I started my TRT I also started working out and closely watching my nutrition. My blood work today is significantly better than it was a year ago before I started. Now could I have gotten similar results by working out and watching what I eat without doing TRT? Probably. But would I have had the energy and motivation? Probably not. So there is a good chance that I’d still be fat and out of shape if I had not gone on TRT, even though the TRT did not in and of itself cause all of my good results. So if (and that’s a big if) TRT has some negative impact on my health, it is likely more than compensated for by the fact that I’ve dropped 20-lbs of fat, gained 10-lbs of muscle, and dropped my body fat from 23% to 15%. Not only bedroom performance but blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides, all of that good stuff is all perfect now. My doc has been very impressed with my results and told me whatever I’m doing, keep doing it.
There shouldn’t be a need for an AI on 200mg weekly, at least not for the majority of people.
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Probably 500mg for most as well.
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I was referring to staying in supraphysiological levels year round taking years off ones life. A standard TRT dose of around 120-150mg should be fairly safe, but I dont consider 200mg a TRT dose.
SB
Not to play the @Singhbuilder fan card… but I totally agree here. TRT doses are wildly over prescribed. This is a pharma forum so to each their own. However my dose of 120-140mg puts me in the upper ranges. I have experience with both TRT clinics and a real qualified Endo and the experience is quite different. My Endo is the one that convinced me no AI was needed and I only needed T. I fought him due to KSman’s protocols and have only been better since listening. Further he prescribes me 120mg a week but I have enough ‘extra’ that I have been running closer to 140mg a week because I like my numbers a little higher. At 120-140mg I’m still at the 800 ng/dl at my trough days. High… ‘normal’
I hardly lost anything after my first cycle and I feel as good as I ever did post-PCT. Everyone is different. Some crappy study won’t change that.
How old is the oldest living person that’s been on TRT for 20+ years?
I get what you’re saying. I guess worrying about a few years doesn’t bother me, but if you’re talking 10-20 years, that’s extremely worrisome. Who knows how long any of us will live anyhow, or exactly how many years this stuff will take from us.
Surely running a cycle or two a year will take some years off ones life as well, no? What about running 200mg for a few years, getting to that desired size, then dropping it to ~150 from then on out. I have zero clue what the amount if size you’d maintain on 200vs150 would be, but just a thought.