[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya really don’t wanna do this. I tried it n you won’t dig it.[/quote]
Worse than having a priest fiddle your diddle?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya really don’t wanna do this. I tried it n you won’t dig it.[/quote]
Worse than having a priest fiddle your diddle?[/quote]
Thats right, just because you get issued a costume by a supposed “higher authority” you have no business fondling kids!
Oh, wait…
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
So you accept the Bible, which was compiled by the Catholic Church, but reject the interpretations and teachings of the Church Fathers who compiled it after sitting at the feet of the Apostles who sat at the feet of Jesus Christ Himself? Interesting jump in logic.
hacking? lolz.[/quote]
There’re many versions of the Bible.[/quote]
That all came from the original, compiled by the Catholic Church.[/quote]
So where do the Eastern Orthodox folks fit in?
They seem to think they are THE first and only real church…[/quote]
They are part of it, never heard them actually claim this, just people that are non-Catholics or Orthodox that claim that they claim this. Most Eastern and Greek Orthodox Christians recognize that they need to be in communion with the Pope. Some just don’t like the strength of the Bishops and especially the Pope.
Anyway, disproving the Eastern Orthodox as THE first and only real church is very simple, they don’t carry the marks of THE first and only real church; however, as I said some of them are (if they have apostolic succession, sacraments) part of it. And, some of the Orthodox Churches are in full communion with the Pope and have their own rite.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of praying to Mary or the saints.
[/quote]
Oh, rly? I’d put the burden of proof on you, but that would be unfair to you prove a negative; however, I can put the burden of proof on you to prove where it says not to pray to Mary and the saints in heaven.
You’re Catholic?
You have yet to answer my question as to where in the Bible, the Bible says that only the Bible is supposed to be used.
But, I will answer your question as I don’t have the patience to wait for an answer on this question as I already have 12 (count 12) people looking for this single verse. I’ll make it easy on you, it is not there.
Addressing if the Saints can hear us:
The Saints can’t hear us on Heaven. But, they can Revelations 5:8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Those in Heaven are aware of our prayers on earth as Rev 5:8 indicates. Because, if the Saints in Heaven are offering our prayers, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware and petition and intercede for us on earth.
Those prayers were not address to saints in heaven, but God directly! But, that would only strengthen my argument. Because if they were offered directly to God, then they are still aware of our prayers, even when they are not directed at them.
Revelations 5:8 is clear that they intercede for saints on earth. John tells us that incense = prayers of saints.
Another point of contention, One Mediator.
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 2:5).
But, does asking another man (or woman) to pray for you violate God’s eternal law or Christ’s one mediatorship? No. This can be seen in the way Christ mediates. Christ is unique in his mediatorship between man and God, because he is both God and man. He is the only connection, God-man. Christ’s mediatorship is not compromise because others intercede for us. Christ’s uniqueness is even more unique because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.” and “to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel” (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was of the Old Covenant Gal. 19-20 "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.
The saints in heave, and their intercession (which that is what they do) does not interfere with Christ’s mediatorship in the four verses before 1 Timothy 2:5 Paul tells us Christians should intercede (2:1-4) “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Obviously intercession prayers are “good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” not moving in on Christ’s mediatorship.
I am not sure if you are a Fundamentalist, but I’ll do the objection anyway. Some object to asking our fellow Christians in Heaven to pray for us by saying God has declared or forbidden contact with the dead in passages like Due 18:10-11. This is in fact not true, as he has at times like when Elijah and Moses appear on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, “And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him” (Matt. 17:3). However, God has forbidden necromantic practice, of conjuring dead spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethrenâ??him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10â??15).
We are not to conjure up the dead for intelligence, we are to look to God’s prophets instead. Anyone can use reason to figure out the difference between someone holding seance to be able to speak to the dead and a father praying to a dead son asking him to pray to Jesus to pray for him in hard times. The difference is immense, one is the occult trying to acquire intelligence, and the other is someone’s humble prayer to a loved dead one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Other’s have what they call objects for “overlooking the obvious.”
One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
“How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?” (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If heaven was like being on the other side of a house from someone, then yes those objections would be qualified. But, the saints aren’t across the house, they are not restricted to time/space limitations like us.
This doesn’t mean they are omniscient, but only because of God’s willing it can they communicate with others and us. And, her argument about different languages is a little dubious, does anyone really think that say…English is what the saints in Heaven are restricted to? I doubt it, after all isn’t God the one that gives the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues? Those saints in Rev. 5:8 surely understand the prayers they offer God.
And the “directly to Jesus” argument. Of course you go directly to Jesus in prayer, but that begs the question: Why should we ask any Christian, in Heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the fact that we can go straight to Jesus was enough to prove that we should not pray to the Saints in heaven to pray for us, it is enough to prove that we should not ask Christians on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is just a Christian thing to do. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul strongly encourages Christians to intercede for many things, and those verses are not uncommon in Paul’s writing. Paul asks us to pray for him “I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints, so that by God’s will I may come to you with joy and be refreshed in your company.” “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.” “and pray for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, an account of which I am in prison.” “Brethen, pray for us.” “Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you.” Paul also told us in Thes that he was praying for them, “To this end we always pray for you, that God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power.” (2 Thess 1:11). Jesus asked us to pray for each other, even those that did not ask us to pray for them in Matt 5:44, “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
The practice of going to others to pray for us is highly recommended in Scripture, to regard it as superfluous on the grounds that one can go straight to Jesus is incorrect. The NT would not recommend it if there were not reasons or benefits coming from it. One such reason is that the faith and devotion of the saints can help our own weakness and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus can be seen giving to someone else because of one’s faith such as in Matt 8:13 “And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment,” Matt 15:28, “Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly,” 17:15-18, “'Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly; for often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” And Jesus answered, 'O faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me" And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured instantly," Mark 9:17-29, “And one of the crowd answered him, ‘Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a mute spirit; and wherever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grins his teeth and becomes rigit; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.’ And he answered them, 'O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” And they brought the boy to him; and when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, ‘How long has he had this?’ And he said, 'From childhood. And it has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you can do anything, have pity on us and help us." And Jesus said to him, ‘If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.’ Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, ‘I believe; help my unbelief!’ And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, 'You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again." And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, ‘He is dead.’ But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, 'Why could we not cast it out? And he said to them, ‘This kind cannot be drive out by anything but prayer and fasting,’" Luke 8:49-55, “While he was still speaking, a man from the ruler’s house came and said, ‘Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the Teacher anymore.’ But Jesus on hearing this answered him, ‘Do not fear; only believe, and she shall be well.’ And when he came to the house, he permitted no one to enter with him, except Peter and John and James, and the father and the mother of the child. And all were weeping and bewailing her; but he said, ‘Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But taking her by the hand he called, saying, ‘Child, arise.’ And her spirit returned and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat.” And, it goes that those in Heaven who are free of body and distractions have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
God answer the prayers of the righteous in particular, James says, “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16â??18). Those Christians in Heaven are more righteous since they are perfect in God’s presence than anyone on earth as Hebrew 12:22-23 says, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.” so their prayers are more effective.
Have others pray for us is a good thing, not something to cast into the fire, and we should pray directly to God for pressing needs as John 14:13-14 says, “Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” The Catholic Church strongly encourages Christians to do this. This is shown in the Mass, the main act of Catholic Worship, are directed toward God and Jesus, not the saints. But this doesn’t mean we should ask our fellow saints on earth and heaven to pray for us.
Praying directly to God and Jesus (which is essential to the Christian rituals), there are many many reason to ask the saints in heave to intercede or pray for us. The Bible shows us that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are more effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that would suggest we should not ask saints in heaven to do what we already know them to be doing.
The Bible says to pray or invoke those in heave and ask them to pray for us. Psalm 103 says, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
Revelations, “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
Those in heaven that pray for us aren’t just angels but humans. John shows us “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The passage shows us that the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Godspeed,
Brother Chris
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
<<< That’s a rather unjustifiable and gross simplification of the development of the Bible, which from my understanding as a non-believer was a long and complicated process. I don’t think you can argue that all versions of the Bible come from the Catholic version by any means given that many of them are based on the original Greek and Hebrew texts.[/quote]I am not a Catholic… like really NOT a Catholic, but you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which is fine, there’s no particular reason why you should. Do yourself a favor and quit now.
[/quote]
Maybe you’d care to explain then, because I’m actually quite interested in the topic. Or at least give me a good starting point.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
<<< That’s a rather unjustifiable and gross simplification of the development of the Bible, which from my understanding as a non-believer was a long and complicated process. I don’t think you can argue that all versions of the Bible come from the Catholic version by any means given that many of them are based on the original Greek and Hebrew texts.[/quote]I am not a Catholic… like really NOT a Catholic, but you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which is fine, there’s no particular reason why you should. Do yourself a favor and quit now.
[/quote]
Maybe you’d care to explain then, because I’m actually quite interested in the topic. Or at least give me a good starting point.[/quote]
Cliff Notes: When the Christian Church was in its infancy, there were many books and letters being circulated all claiming to be divinely inspired, written by the apostles, etc. Around the year 300AD (I dont have it in front of me, dont quote me on that exact year), the Church met and worked to compile the Holy Scripture as we know it today. It is from this collection that the Bible came. It was a long process, but it was a process that began and ended with the Catholic Church. Any groups at this time who dissented from the Canon produced are no longer around today.
Brother Chris,
Jose Gomez is the replacement for your beloved boy tickling cardinal, he has already been accused of sexual allegations in the past. Tell il papa great job on his choice, securing child molesters for years to come. Mahony has not cooperated with police at all with allegations in the church, just shuffling the trash around.
So, since it doesn’t say not to pray to Mary, you would? Always live in double negatives?
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Cliff Notes: When the Christian Church was in its infancy, there were many books and letters being circulated all claiming to be divinely inspired, written by the apostles, etc. Around the year 300AD (I dont have it in front of me, dont quote me on that exact year), the Church met and worked to compile the Holy Scripture as we know it today. It is from this collection that the Bible came. It was a long process, but it was a process that began and ended with the Catholic Church. Any groups at this time who dissented from the Canon produced are no longer around today.
Thanks.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Cliff Notes: When the Christian Church was in its infancy, there were many books and letters being circulated all claiming to be divinely inspired, written by the apostles, etc. Around the year 300AD (I dont have it in front of me, dont quote me on that exact year), the Church met and worked to compile the Holy Scripture as we know it today. It is from this collection that the Bible came. It was a long process, but it was a process that began and ended with the Catholic Church. Any groups at this time who dissented from the Canon produced are no longer around today.
Thanks.[/quote]
No problem bud.
For Maximus
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya really don’t wanna do this. I tried it n you won’t dig it.[/quote]
Worse than having a priest fiddle your diddle?[/quote]Ol Brother Chris here succeeded in goading me (it did take a while though) into an artillery exchange about everything you’re about to get into. It wound up with myself holed up on one side and Chris, Sloth and Pat on the other. Pat still cannot differentiate hatred for his abominable church which I most assuredly do have and hatred for him, which I do not have an ounce of. Chris was sour for a while (though he’ll deny that), but we’re ok now… sorta =]. Sloth, I gotta say stayed level the whole time despite some serious pugilism going both ways though we made zero progress it that’s defined as finding common ground. I refused and take responsibility for that.
I want the RCC of Trent back when it had some theological balls and wasn’t running around trying to devise innovative ways to coddle clearly hostile apostates like myself to say nothing of the oblivious pagan masses. The post Vatican 2 RCC is a spiritually emasculated encounter group that stands for practically nothing it once did. Except itself. I can respect a church that’ll burn me at the stake for heresy more than one that tells Jehovah’s Witnesses that they’re in God’s favor because they’re doing the best they know how.
Tell me I’m anathema and on my way to hell like the glorious Rome of yore and I’ll vehemently disagree, but respect your actually standing for something. This castrated and nauseatingly arrogant neo unitarian version wherein practically everybody’s OK, either as ignorant heathen or “separated brethren” because the grace held by Rome extends to them, is now not only evil, but uncomically comical as well.
I told them their church was the synagogue of satan, complicit in the damnation of hundreds of millions of souls and a stench in the nostril of a holy God. I told them that what they call the “one true most holy apostolic church” was anything but and almost begged them to declare me lost and nobody would, but I was instead treated to a (circus music please) entertaining exercise in encyclical semantics. Why bother wasting your life on a waddling bloated ostentatious fountain of historical scandal and iniquity when there isn’t even a penalty for not doing so?
Actually I’d be interested to see how it goes with you. I don’t know what your faith is, but simply not being a papist won’t land you on “my side”. Not that that should be your goal.
^lololololol
Dont worry, I still think your anathema
and
I agree on the Catholic Church post Vatican II, its become emasculated and weak.
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
^lololololol
Dont worry, I still think your anathema
and
I agree on the Catholic Church post Vatican II, its become emasculated and weak.
fisheaters.com[/quote]FRESH TROOPS!!! Though my buddy Chris will never grow weary. NEVER!!!
You’re not alone either. (post Vat. 2 thing) There’s just as much division in the old ranks as anywhere in the non catholic world. BTW, thanks for the anathema. Seriously =] If you’d like I can cite all the decrees from Trent where I qualify. I’ve been really tryin.
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Cliff Notes: When the Christian Church was in its infancy, there were many books and letters being circulated all claiming to be divinely inspired, written by the apostles, etc. Around the year 300AD (I dont have it in front of me, dont quote me on that exact year), the Church met and worked to compile the Holy Scripture as we know it today. It is from this collection that the Bible came. It was a long process, but it was a process that began and ended with the Catholic Church. Any groups at this time who dissented from the Canon produced are no longer around today.
We’ll take it from here thank ya very much (oh yeah, already did, centuries ago) Rome clearly cannot be trusted with it. God does indeed have a sense of humor and irony. Your kingdom IS of this world… His isn’t.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
So, since it doesn’t say not to pray to Mary, you would? Always live in double negatives?[/quote]
No, I asked you to prove where it says not to (putting the burden of proof on you), I just proved it did. Unless you didn’t read that long thing I just typed.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
^lololololol
Dont worry, I still think your anathema
and
I agree on the Catholic Church post Vatican II, its become emasculated and weak.
fisheaters.com[/quote]FRESH TROOPS!!! Though my buddy Chris will never grow weary. NEVER!!!
[/quote]
Of course not, who grows weary when arguing against someone that is wrong.
I’ll have to point out that Vatican II didn’t change the Church, however the culture which was abound (60’s and 70’s) viewed the Vatican II as a change in the Church. Invincible ignorance, only works if the person tried to follow God’s will. If they didn’t and went against God’s will, then they’re going to Hell.
Chris,
You are asking me where it is NOT written to pray to Mary? Is that right ?
I am against the business of religion, not the principle of it.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Chris,
You are asking me where it is NOT written to pray to Mary? Is that right ?
I am against the business of religion, not the principle of it.[/quote]
No, I am asking you to show me where IT IS written to not pray to Mary, because I proved where the Bible says we should pray to the Saints.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
<<< That’s a rather unjustifiable and gross simplification of the development of the Bible, which from my understanding as a non-believer was a long and complicated process. I don’t think you can argue that all versions of the Bible come from the Catholic version by any means given that many of them are based on the original Greek and Hebrew texts.[/quote]I am not a Catholic… like really NOT a Catholic, but you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which is fine, there’s no particular reason why you should. Do yourself a favor and quit now.
[/quote]
Maybe you’d care to explain then, because I’m actually quite interested in the topic. Or at least give me a good starting point.[/quote]Ya know, I was going to get back to work, but this is very nice response and question to which I would now feel remiss in not at least briefly addressing.
In short, yes, all versions do descend from the canon compiled by what would eventually become the Roman Catholic Church. (hyooooj topic) and all are ultimately translated from the same families of Hebrew (smattering of Aramaic) and Koine Greek manuscripts. You are correct in that it was a somewhat protracted process with much debate. The old testament canon was much more settled already. I do believe the whole operation was overseen by the Holy Spirit.
I also am not averse to the idea a single authoritative church and would actually welcome such a thing in principle. If it weren’t for the fact that every single thing I can think of that is distinctly Roman Catholic is also directly opposed by the the scriptures they canonized I would be Roman Catholic today. You have to already embrace the authority of the church to buy some of the outright preposterous explanations you’ll get for not only the overwhelming deluge of law and dogma, but also the incessant parade of corruption on one level or another.
Nobody simply going to the bible, even if you include the apocryphal books (google), will come away with anything even vaguely approaching the suffocating mass (no pun) of “tradition” and volumes of canon law. (more google)
Chris,
I went back to read the eternity you call a post on page 2. Throughout your endless drivel, you mention one thing regarding the Saints… That they can hear our prayers. Awesome! They can HEAR, but can they answer our prayers ? You typed up an Encyclopedia Brittanica worth of material proving my point. Thank you dear brother.
Again, you proved my point, there is only one God mediated by the son Jesus Christ. So why in the blue fuck would you pray to someone or something that can’t do a thing about it? Again specifically described in the Bible passages you outline. I guess you can pray to whoever you want Chris, but will it be answered or only heard?
I don’t know how you think, but why not go straight to “da man” with your stuff when only he can do anything about it?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
<<< That’s a rather unjustifiable and gross simplification of the development of the Bible, which from my understanding as a non-believer was a long and complicated process. I don’t think you can argue that all versions of the Bible come from the Catholic version by any means given that many of them are based on the original Greek and Hebrew texts.[/quote]I am not a Catholic… like really NOT a Catholic, but you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which is fine, there’s no particular reason why you should. Do yourself a favor and quit now.
[/quote]
Maybe you’d care to explain then, because I’m actually quite interested in the topic. Or at least give me a good starting point.[/quote]Ya know, I was going to get back to work, but this is very nice response and question to which I would now feel remiss in not at least briefly addressing.
In short, yes, all versions do descend from the canon compiled by what would eventually become the Roman Catholic Church. (hyooooj topic) and all are ultimately translated from the same families of Hebrew (smattering of Aramaic) and Koine Greek manuscripts. You are correct in that it was a somewhat protracted process with much debate. The old testament canon was much more settled already. I do believe the whole operation was overseen by the Holy Spirit.
I also am not averse to the idea a single authoritative church and would actually welcome such a thing in principle. If it weren’t for the fact that every single thing I can think of that is distinctly Roman Catholic is also directly opposed by the the scriptures they canonized I would be Roman Catholic today. You have to already embrace the authority of the church to buy some of the outright preposterous explanations you’ll get for not only the overwhelming deluge of law and dogma, but also the incessant parade of corruption on one level or another.
Nobody simply going to the bible, even if you include the apocryphal books (google), will come away with anything even vaguely approaching the suffocating mass (no pun) of “tradition” and volumes of canon law. (more google)
[/quote]
Take the challenge Tiribulus, on your own time. Think and pray on it.
Further reading for you: