[quote]tawney wrote:
happydog said:
"All of the esters have similar half-lives, including propionate.
They all peak within one to two days of injecting and then slowly taper off. This is why injecting EOD is best. Anything less frequent is not going to be optimal as far as maintaining stable test levels is concerned."
I see where you’re going with this, but it’s not exactly true. You can maintain a stable level for about 3.5 days on cypionate. That’s why the twice weekly injections are fine. The endo journals have a nice study on 200mg injections of cyp that clearly show the bloodlevel activity after 3.5 days being pretty stable still… a week, well- then you’ve got a pretty visible drop. But 3.5 days shouldn’t cause any noticable difference in the person on HRT. From personal experience I felt no drop. I also had bloodwork done after 24 hrs and also on day 3 to compare for myself last month, and there was no real difference. Here’s the link:
Are you missing something?.. YES.
The transdermal doesn’t pack any punch at all. The levels you get from it are very little more than “low average”. Personally- if I was asked, do I want to feel kinda ok, or do I want to feel terrific like when I was 21, I’d take the terrific 21 deal. Just call me crazy. If I’m gonna have my endo system shut down anyway then I wanna feel great, not better than crappy.
Oh- and once it’s been a couple months on that patch and your own HPTA shuts down, I’ve heard many guys on message boards complain that they started feeling crappy again and when they were blood tested again their levels were almost as bad as when they started (probably because when they started the patch they at least still had their own testes making testosterone too)
See that’s a problem that won’t happen with the shots because the shots put so much in your system that your own production doesn’t matter in the equasion.
Drug companies make a FORTUNE on those patches, and they are shown to be ridiculously safe because they don’t really change your levels much. so you can bet your ass that doctors are gonna take the easy way out by prescribing them instead of the shots if they can get away with it. Shots cause REAL MEASURABLE BIG changes, and that means the docs need to prescribe arimidex, HCG, etc. Their patients may need help with side effects, dosage regulation, shot administration, the doctor must really know what he’s doing… it’s not one patch fits all. You better believe the doc’s are gonna go for the patch. and then if things don’t work out sure they’ll move you to the shots, or tell you no and make you get a new doctor… but by then you’ve been through 3 more months of heartache and your shut down and mad, LOL
Trust me just find a solid doctor who knows HRT and will get you set up with 2x weekly shots and the arimidex and HCG. Or let me re-phrase- a doctor who knows his shit and will offer you all the different options so that you can make a correct informed decision.
Contrary to what Tawney says, I mean he is a urologist, endocrinologist, and andrologist himself, the Androgel can have someone get upper normal levels. I personally test regularly at 800 with 7.5 grams. Tawney advises that you need to be at 1000+ to feel good when actually 1000+ is supraphysiological, meaning ABOVE NORMAL. That is why he speaks of countermeasures such as arimidex.
After emailing my doc about getting T injections weekly (instead of every 3 weeks), about an AI like Arimidex, about hCG and getting tested for E2 and DHT, he referred me to Endocrinology. They called me and apparently have ordered more tests. As of yet I don’t know for what.
[quote]Rkdp wrote:
After emailing my doc about getting T injections weekly (instead of every 3 weeks), about an AI like Arimidex, about hCG and getting tested for E2 and DHT, he referred me to Endocrinology. They called me and apparently have ordered more tests. As of yet I don’t know for what. [/quote]
If you stay on top of things, like you’re doing, then you have a much better chance of success.
There’s a ton of credible information available out there for you to educate yourself with and knowledge is the real recipe for success.
Don’t blindly believe anything you read. Look around for verification and think critically.
The jcem study cited was with guys getting 200mg shots every two weeks, which is a different protocol than 28mg EOD. One way that would make a difference is that the higher single doses will tend to have more of a problem with aromatization than smaller doses. Also, if you know that E2 levels are tied to testosterone levels via aromatase, it isn’t surprising that guys with twice the testosterone have twice the E2. The gel guys were, on average, one tenth of a point below the high end of the “normal” range for E2. Well just because they’re barely squeeking by doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be doing better with a little anastrozole in the mix. Speaking from my own experience and that of many guys I’ve talked with who were having problems in this specific area, where you want to be with E2 is at the very bottom of the “normal” range.
Don’t forget that the studies use “randomized” patients, but you are not random, you are specific. If 60% of guys have result A …that doesn’t help you if you’re having result B.
Obviously we have two guys here who have had different experiences. Big deal, that’s the way life is. Bodies are not machines and they’re not computers. They work in highly complex and individual ways. Get over it. That’s the way it’s always been.
No one can tell you in advance with certainly what YOUR result is going to be with ANY given medical treatment.
Read up and pay attention and you’ll be fine. Sometimes it’s all about having a solid plan B.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Easiest solution is to take 5, 7.5, or 10 g of Androgel per day. No need for Arimidex or any other goofy stuff Tawney speaks of. [/quote]
Your advice is wrong, dangerous and needlessly judgmental.
Taking Arimidex is not goofy, it is essential.
TRT, especially transdermal delivery systems increase E2 levels. E2 levels that are in the upper range, such as 37pg/ml [0-53] can cause loss of libido, ED, lack of sensation in the penis, inability to loose fat in certain areas, brain fog, lethargy, passivity, depression… all of the symptoms of hypogonadism even when TT and FT are above lab upper ranges.
TRT without AI can leave some feeling worse than before staring TRT.
Optimal E2 levels need to be in the lower 20’s [0-53].
Increased E2 increases SHBG which reduces FT. E interferes with FT at T receptors and blocks many of the benefits of T. Elevated E in males alters brain functioning an interferes with thought patterns. This is confusing and distressing.
Test and control E2 levels to optimise the benefit of your TRT. Many are suffering because they or their doctors do not understand the larger picture. TRT induces elevated or over range E2… which is an induced hormone imbalance that should be treated as part of HRT. Same for the loss of LH, hCG should be used.
Many who have had TRT without arimidex who then are started on it are shocked by how their world changes for the better.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Easiest solution is to take 5, 7.5, or 10 g of Androgel per day. No need for Arimidex or any other goofy stuff Tawney speaks of. [/quote]
I personally inject 28mg EOD just like Happydog48 and others, and also take adex and HCG. I feel better than I have in years, and the addition of the HCG to the T and adex is extraordinary.
I don’t know what my T levels are and I (technically) don’t care, as I know they are 1000+ by the way I feel.(and w/o HCG I’m 1000+ anyway)
Anybody who is on or starting HRT, would be better off to get the T, Adex, & HCG dosages dialed in to maybe feel a great “21” again, instead of an “average” age much older.
I hate to argue about the Androgel, but the fact is that it does not work for everyone. If you don’t believe the folks responding about it in T-Nation I would advise checking other sources which agrees with my first statement. I was on 10g Anrogel for 3 months and barely made it above 300. I switched to t-enanthate and it immediately went over 500. Good luck to those that can use it, but, sgain it is not for everyone.
Haven’t had an injection yet. Trying to get all the ducks in a row first. Meeting the Endo May 15. Not sure what he’s going to say now that I have a T test in normal range.