Low Carb Mr. Olympia?

Put straight, what we know of physiology simply doesn’t support the AD as anything but a dieting strategy. It’s an easy an effective way to curb intake and play the supercompensation game.

Resistance training will only ever be fueled by carbohydrate. Whether those carbs come from converted/excess protein or from glycogen “spared” from a carb-up, carbs will be the only fuel source.

I messed with the AD and the problem is it’s illogical given the biochemical demands of our body. Most of the citations in the book are based off of rat studies and have little to no bearing on human physiology given the wide disparity in genetic timelines. A day for a rat is equivalent, roughly, to a human year. You can see where the issue begins to confound itself.

Not to say that utilizing a low-carb strategy isn’t effective, but fundamentally, we’re talking calories. Eat in excess, gain weight. Eat in deficit, lose weight. I do think typical bodybuilder diet demands are too high on the carbs, low on the fat, and DiPasquale plays the “either/or” game in his book, ignoring the middle.

If you’re on the juice, your heightened absorptive state allows you to put to use and store those carbs as glycogen a hell of a lot more efficiently than a natural.

Far more efficient, for those with a poor partitioning ratio or severe insulin resistant, would be matching demand and need. Put your carbs closest to your workout and low-carb the rest of the time. What I don’t like about the AD is the broad, sweeping strokes made for fats. Saturated fats are fine and dandy, but in high amounts, can still promote insulin resistance and interfere with the carb ups on the weekend.

Given current data, an aggressive targeted ketogenic diet with weekly refeeds around workouts would be a far more prudent strategy (and arguably more effective). It’s en vogue, right now, to be all about the glutamine/creatine/BCAA/cow lung (kidding!) cocktail for workout nutrition.

It’s also an easy way to take money from your pocket book given the supplements. BCAAs actually generate twice the amount of glucose as an equivalent number of carbohydrates. Bet ya didn’t know that.

Anyway, I think low-carbing has it’s place but really, you can hedge any body composition concerns with aggressive nutrient timing. As much as this diet is hailed as being the “golden age” way of eating, those guys ate like “normal” people when not in contest season.

If you read Arnold’s Encyclopedia… (a must, I think for a lot of people on this site as I feel much of the Internet has become disassociated with much of the culture of bodybuilding) he discusses ketosis and low-carb diets recommending you stay just out of ketosis. Current research shows there is no real advantage going below 50g of active carbohydrate a day, and staying above that level prevents gluconeogenesis from occurring.

A’ite, I’m out folks.

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
This is really an interesting concept to me since I have been blowing my diet the past week and I swear I lost some fat. Have to check with calipers to see where I am, but I can say since my carbs are up I feel better.

Can someone help me out here? I thought low carb high protein was the way to go for bodybuilding. Is it only for contest shape?

I am kinda naive in this area since I have always just wing my diet keeping protein high and carbs low.

[/quote]

Yo pete, we seem to keep running into each other. Just as training needs to be adjusted regularly, so does the diet. Some experts say eat for the activity you are gonna perform. I personally, I think the simplest way to go is, if you are eating a protein, even it out with a carb (low glycemic). Then the fats are taken care of, ya get me?

If it’s a training day, the calories(good calorie) need to increase, if its an off day, you can lower the calories for that day, say 300 calories or so less.

There is no one right way, but I try to keep it to low glycemic carbs, with protein source each meal. This stabilizes insulin, and alsokeeps energy levels fairly steady throughout the day. Everyone is gonna have a different theory, but this seems to work for me.

The old Body for Life (shit, i cant believe I’m saying a nutrition program about 10 years old is"old") recommends a day of “cheating”, because the body will respond by releasing stored BF. Also, it keeps ya sane! But you need to know that muscles require glycogen (carbs) to fill muscle cells.

Too much of protein, carbs, fats, will eventually make you sensitive to the lacking nutrient. Keep it simple. A good protein with a good carb at each meal will fulfill your requirements. It becomes more complicated, as you know, but this simplifies the dilemma!

[quote]zdrax wrote:
Put straight, what we know of physiology simply doesn’t support the AD as anything but a dieting strategy. It’s an easy an effective way to curb intake and play the supercompensation game.

Resistance training will only ever be fueled by carbohydrate. Whether those carbs come from converted/excess protein or from glycogen “spared” from a carb-up, carbs will be the only fuel source.

I messed with the AD and the problem is it’s illogical given the biochemical demands of our body. Most of the citations in the book are based off of rat studies and have little to no bearing on human physiology given the wide disparity in genetic timelines. A day for a rat is equivalent, roughly, to a human year. You can see where the issue begins to confound itself.

Not to say that utilizing a low-carb strategy isn’t effective, but fundamentally, we’re talking calories. Eat in excess, gain weight. Eat in deficit, lose weight. I do think typical bodybuilder diet demands are too high on the carbs, low on the fat, and DiPasquale plays the “either/or” game in his book, ignoring the middle.

If you’re on the juice, your heightened absorptive state allows you to put to use and store those carbs as glycogen a hell of a lot more efficiently than a natural.

Far more efficient, for those with a poor partitioning ratio or severe insulin resistant, would be matching demand and need. Put your carbs closest to your workout and low-carb the rest of the time. What I don’t like about the AD is the broad, sweeping strokes made for fats. Saturated fats are fine and dandy, but in high amounts, can still promote insulin resistance and interfere with the carb ups on the weekend.

Given current data, an aggressive targeted ketogenic diet with weekly refeeds around workouts would be a far more prudent strategy (and arguably more effective). It’s en vogue, right now, to be all about the glutamine/creatine/BCAA/cow lung (kidding!) cocktail for workout nutrition.

It’s also an easy way to take money from your pocket book given the supplements. BCAAs actually generate twice the amount of glucose as an equivalent number of carbohydrates. Bet ya didn’t know that.

Anyway, I think low-carbing has it’s place but really, you can hedge any body composition concerns with aggressive nutrient timing. As much as this diet is hailed as being the “golden age” way of eating, those guys ate like “normal” people when not in contest season.

If you read Arnold’s Encyclopedia… (a must, I think for a lot of people on this site as I feel much of the Internet has become disassociated with much of the culture of bodybuilding) he discusses ketosis and low-carb diets recommending you stay just out of ketosis. Current research shows there is no real advantage going below 50g of active carbohydrate a day, and staying above that level prevents gluconeogenesis from occurring.

A’ite, I’m out folks. [/quote]

I agree with all this, except the carbs fueling the muscles (glycogen). Specific aminos will also fuel the muscles. This is where nitrix and shit like that work. But it is a “carrier” to influx the cells with glycogen.

So… Well, It all works together, Carbs are necessary, but nutrient timing is the most important I think. Eat for the activity of the day! That’s just my two cents, to go along with this brother in iron

Ineresting stuff guys. Well lemme put a little of my knowledge in… I just got done reading Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob Faigin, and unlike the AD he recommends taking 7 days to transition to fat burning rather than 12.

After the transition he says to cycle carbs in a 3/4 split. So you go 3 days 30g carbs and then on the third day after working out u have a starchy carb meal (or for us guys who workout hardcore you have two starchy carb meals). Then you go 4 days 30g carbs and have a starchy carb meal after working out on the 4th day. Then 3, then 4, etc…

This way appeals to me WAY more than the AD. One because it seems that my muscles only become depleted of carbs after 4 days of 30g CHO. So this means my muscles will look fuller longer… And two because I hate carbloading a full day. Its almost one of the worst experiences I’ve ever gone through. Tho it has gotten way better now, I still don’t like it.

So I’m thinking this may be in the middle of a CKD and TKD. And I’m definently going to be trying it within the next few months, but currently I’m sticking with the AD to see what unfolds. So far I’ve lost fat and gained muscle, so when results stagnate thats when I’ll make the change.

Also if your wondering how credible Rob Faigin is he has about 50 references to studies at the end of every single chapter in Natural Hormonal Enhancement, and most of the studies listed are based on humans. So he has done his homework. Anyway I think his eating plan is a good one which I’m looking forward to trying.

I also read alot of Vince Gironda’s stuff and Gironda did the high fat low carb thing for an extra long time, and he recommends eating almost exactly how faigin recommends, just without all the studies listed after each chapter as his ideas were based on observations not actual scientific studies like nowadays.

[quote]zdrax wrote:
<<< I messed with the AD >>>[/quote]

I remember. It was when I first started, but you are a case in point. “Messing” with “it” will never reveal representative results.

I will say that what I suspected after my initial research has pretty much turned out to be true. The one key point in any discussion like this is which fuel source remains primary. If it’s carbs then most of any debate that follows is moot right from the start.

If lipids then a whole different frame of reference has to taken. Call it whatever you want, Anabolic Diet, Natural Hormone Enhancement or even Atkins with the addition of whatever glycogen loading strategy you find works best for you. The real point is whether you do better with fats or sugars as your body’s preferred fuel.

A very number of studies in general are done with rats. I don’t care. What I do care about is that going into my 7th month of primary fat metabolism I’ve never felt better in my life, can eat a decidedly large daily intake without getting fat and I’m growing steadily.

Would this be the case on conventional metabolism? Probably, to one degree or another ,but overall what the AD vets like Disc Hoss have claimed for it has proven true for me.

I now have my own modifications that I hesitate to discuss openly in the thread because I really believe new people are better off following the prescribed guidelines for several months before making changes.

Bottom line for me is I don’t necessarily see DiPasquale’s version as canonized gospel, but the underlying foundation of a fully fat adapted metabolism with the regular cho loading strategy of your choice remains misrepresented and rarely actually done to this day.

“Low carb” is a vast oversimplification. Nobdy, including DiPasquale has ever contended that anerobic work ISN"T fueled immediately by glycogen. Carbs are your friend, hence the regular loading. Again the real question is whether you do better long term on which primary fuel source and that cannot be determined without a commitment of several months.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“Low carb” is a vast oversimplification. Nobdy, including DiPasquale has ever contended that anerobic work ISN"T fueled immediately by glycogen. Carbs are your friend, hence the regular loading. Again the real question is whether you do better long term on which primary fuel source and that cannot be determined without a commitment of several months.[/quote]

Well put.

Any mere mortal even thinking about replicating any big time bodybuilders diet is in for a big surprise. and that BIG surprise will be a BIG gut. Just look at Pudjanowskis diet. He eats like 3lbs of bacon a day and like 2lbs of chocolate. Pure insanity. These guys are genetic freaks.

For the bulker, I don’t see how you can lift and gain muscle to potential if you rely on your aminos turing into carbs and hopefully getting enough. If you’re dieting the low carb way its a great idea. Thats the only way I’ve ever lost weight. I’m not a carb friendly person so thats just me. some people have super fast metabolisms and then they can probably eat more carbs, but thats not me.

It depends on the persons genetics, metabolism, existing muscle mass, there are so many factors the only thing you can do is read up on research and other’s experience, apply some overall concepts, and then keep a journal and then FIGURE OUT WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU! Thats the only way your going to reach your maximum muscle growth/fat loss. You need to do some of your own research on your own body.

[quote]GreenTerror79 wrote:
Any mere mortal even thinking about replicating any big time bodybuilders diet is in for a big surprise. and that BIG surprise will be a BIG gut. Just look at Pudjanowskis diet.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]GreenTerror79 wrote:
He eats like 3lbs of bacon a day and like 2lbs of chocolate. Pure insanity. These guys are genetic freaks.
[/quote]

You think eating 3 lbs of bacon a day and 2 lbs of chocolate constitutes being a genetic freak?

[quote]Bizmark wrote:
I also read alot of Vince Gironda’s stuff and Gironda did the high fat low carb thing for an extra long time, and he recommends eating almost exactly how faigin recommends, just without all the studies listed after each chapter as his ideas were based on observations not actual scientific studies like nowadays.[/quote]

You mean Faigin recommends eating almost exactly like Gironda. Let’s give credit where credit is due, Vince probably came up with that diet before that guy was probably even alive. Most “low carb” “new” diets (including the AD) are all pretty much a derivative of what Vince said in the 50s and 60s.

Have you seen the guy he’s talking about? If he eats that much shit and can maintain his physique, genetics and steroids and all the other gear is doin’ somethin!

Yeah, do you know who he is? He is one of the strongest people in the world and has the body of a bodybuilder. He wakes up at 3am and eats candy to stay in an anabolic state. Enough said. Just look up his diet, its mind boggling.

I hear ya, bro. He blows away the dudes he competes against in those Strongman shows. He is the definition of functional strength! Do you have a link to his nutrition/training site? FREAK is the only word that comes to mind!

[quote]greekdawg wrote:
Bizmark wrote:
I also read alot of Vince Gironda’s stuff and Gironda did the high fat low carb thing for an extra long time, and he recommends eating almost exactly how faigin recommends, just without all the studies listed after each chapter as his ideas were based on observations not actual scientific studies like nowadays.

You mean Faigin recommends eating almost exactly like Gironda. Let’s give credit where credit is due, Vince probably came up with that diet before that guy was probably even alive. Most “low carb” “new” diets (including the AD) are all pretty much a derivative of what Vince said in the 50s and 60s.

[/quote]

tru, not going to argue with u there.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t believe this is a question of whether something makes you feel “gassy”. If feeling ‘gassy’ helps someone gain an extra 10lbs of muscle in a year, maybe they should accept being “gassy”. The question is whether that is optimal for muscle growth.

I personally wouldn’t expect to gain much on a low carb diet year round. In fact, I would go as far as to say that most people wouldn’t unless their metabolisms were just extremely slow…in which case they probably wouldn’t gain all that much muscle regardless.[/quote]

Good point. On the other hand, low carb can be defined in so many ways. 50g of carbs per day seems really low. Is 250g-300g of carbs for someone who is 180 pounds low? I would say its somewhat moderate.

But, I do see your point. Since we are talking about Mr.Olympia, who weighs in around 300 pounds, if they ate 500 grams of carbs, that would be the same amount as the 180 pound guy eating 300g of carbs.

[quote]industrialplaid wrote:

CC wrote:
According to the article you posted, after the diet that guy weighed in at a whopping 175 lbs.[/quote]

Bear in mind the dude is 5’5". At that height, a shredded 175 lbs is better than what 99% of people here on T-Nation look like (myself included).

[quote]CC wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:
CC wrote:
I honestly have yet to see an AD’er with a physique that I could see someone stepping on stage with, even after dieting down. I’d be willing to admit I was wrong if someone could be prove me so, however.

I know that the guy in this article glows about what the AD did for him. I’m giving the diet another try, because I feel like it was very successful for me in the past.

While I appreciate the effort, the title of this thread concerns the Mr. Olympia which, as I said earlier, means the upper echelons of the sport.

According to the article you posted, after the diet that guy weighed in at a whopping 175 lbs.

I don’t think I even need to say it, but that’s nowhere close to what we’re discussing here.

[/quote]

He is a solid looking 175.

Much better than most of the people here (myself included).

[quote]Miserere wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:

CC wrote:
According to the article you posted, after the diet that guy weighed in at a whopping 175 lbs.

Bear in mind the dude is 5’5". At that height, a shredded 175 lbs is better than what 99% of people here on T-Nation look like (myself included).[/quote]

great minds…

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
great minds…[/quote]

Yup. :slight_smile:

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
CC wrote:
industrialplaid wrote:
CC wrote:
I honestly have yet to see an AD’er with a physique that I could see someone stepping on stage with, even after dieting down. I’d be willing to admit I was wrong if someone could be prove me so, however.

I know that the guy in this article glows about what the AD did for him. I’m giving the diet another try, because I feel like it was very successful for me in the past.

While I appreciate the effort, the title of this thread concerns the Mr. Olympia which, as I said earlier, means the upper echelons of the sport.

According to the article you posted, after the diet that guy weighed in at a whopping 175 lbs.

I don’t think I even need to say it, but that’s nowhere close to what we’re discussing here.

He is a solid looking 175.

Much better than most of the people here (myself included).[/quote]

Yes, but you guys are still missing my point. As seen in the title of the thread, the OP was asking about Mr. Olympia.

I never said you can’t achieve a decent level of muscularity with the AD or other similar diet. I think the guy in that link looks great, especially at his height (as you mentioned Mis).

I was simply stating that no one, to my knowledge, has ever competed at the elite level of bodybuilding with that approach. We’re talking upwards of 300 pounds here, after dieting.

[quote]CC wrote:
Yes, but you guys are still missing my point. As seen in the title of the thread, the OP was asking about Mr. Olympia.

I never said you can’t achieve a decent level of muscularity with the AD or other similar diet. I think the guy in that link looks great, especially at his height (as you mentioned Mis).

I was simply stating that no one, to my knowledge, has ever competed at the elite level of bodybuilding with that approach. We’re talking upwards of 300 pounds here, after dieting.

[/quote]

No complaining. This thread is still closer to being on topic than 95% of the threads on this forum.