Low Carb, Med Protein and High Fat

[quote]facko wrote:
I have to disagree with your statement that when we eat carbs…they convert to fat. DNL is not a process that the human body engages in unless certain conditions are met. Those conditions are just not typical of any normal human even on the grain heavy/carb heavy modern day american diet.

Glycogen storage would need to be COMPLETELY maxed out, then you’d need to basically eat in caloric surplus, and the vast majority…if not all…of said calories would be made up of carbohydrates. On top of all that…it would need to go on for more than one day. At that point in time, the body will readily turn to DNL…
[/quote]

Not necessarily. People with certain degrees of insulin resistance can appear to have full glycogen storage even if they do not. When insulin is secreted and is not acknowledged by the insulin receptor (insulin resistance) GLUT 4 is not signaled and glucose is not taken into muscle tissue. Then glucose is left circulating eventually to be converted to fat or urinated out. So essentially, you can have muscles that are glycogen depleted and still have conversion of glucose to fat, because of insulin resistance.

This is obviously way more prevalent in Type II diabetics, but it can happen to a smaller degree with people who have varying levels of insulin resistance, but not necessarily Type II diabetes.

@jehovasfitness @roon12
Check out the book “Energy Metabolism” page 163 by W PT James … you can see that this was disproven a long time ago !!
TEF across the board is about 6-10% of your total caloric daily expenditure !

@facko
RR Wolfe, lipogenesis published in the american journal of clinical nutrition, I believe that was in 1998 … search PubMed RR Wolf and you can read his findings … (when I say carbs convert to fat I mean carbs convert to glucose with is stored as fat)

@schanz_05
your primary source for fuel is what you are conditioned for … if your body is used to carbs for fuel then thats what your body will use … if your body is conditioned to use fat as fuel then that is what is used … while sitting at a desk or running or lifting weights …

Also … I wanted to leave you with this blog post I had a while back … that has to do with lipogenesis …

There are continuing conversations regarding the ability of the body to convert carbohydrates into body fat, a process known as lipogenesis. Different methods provide limited outcomes in the determination of quantitative lipogenesis.

Indirect calorimetry can determine only net lipogenesis, and cannot measure the true rate of fatty acid manufacture that occurs at the same time as fat is burned.

As of 1997, the capability of humans to convert carbohydrates into fat was not known. Also, if it occurred, the anatomical site had not been clearly defined.

Studies have identified the presence of the key enzymes for fatty acid manufacture to be in both the liver and the fat tissue although the actual contribution of the individual tissues had not been measured.

Up until this time, humans were believed to manufacture fat primarily in the liver. If this were the case then that newly manufactured fat would travel to the adipose tissue where it would be stored.

It is common for humans to consume a daily diet that contains between 40%-70% carbohydrate. The body has a limited capacity to store that carbohydrate as glycogen and that metabolic pathway could become saturated.

This would result in the stimulation of the fat making pathway.

The studies have been controversial with some of the early work suggesting that the manufacture of fatty acids is no more than 2-3 grams of glucose to fatty acids per day which may increase up to 10 grams in obese.

Malnourished subjects demonstrated the ability to produce 100 grams of fat per day from glucose. Dr. Kinney found rates of formation 10-20 times higher than earlier researchers. Rates of lipogenesis averaged 85 grams of fat per day versus 1 gram in normal and 4 grams in the obese.

After four days of carbohydrate intake Dr. R.R. Wolfe found a production of fat from carbohydrate that equaled 170 grams per day. Only 2% of this fat formed in the liver and 98% formed in the fat cell.

By day four when the glycogen storage depots were fully saturated all of the glucose was probably converted to fat.

Insulin stimulates this process and the hormones glucagon and epinephrine decrease it.

In modern societies this process of the conversion of carbohydrate into fat is occurring in most people because of the consumption of a high-carbohydrate diet and the fact that they?re eating more calories than they need.

During the last 25 years people have increased the consumption of calories by approximately 600 per day.

So body fat continues to climb both because of the increased calorie consumption and reduced physical activity level plus because of the high rate by which dietary carbohydrates convert to body fat.

The pathways of fat storage and fat burning are regulated by different enzymes and stimulated by different hormonal profiles in the body. Storage and burning do not both occur at the same time.

If the body is storing fuels, then the pathway of burning begins to close down.

Therefore, high-carbohydrate diets will lead to a manufacture of a minimum of 170 grams per day. After about 3 to 4 days, body fat increases of 1 pound are to be expected.

So the arguments of some of the ?self-proclaimed experts? that humans do not manufacture fat from carbohydrate are unfounded.

As I?ve stated on numerous occasions, if one wants to be an authority he has to do more than just read one research paper. Nothing less than a collection of all the work completed in an area is required.

That includes a collection of not only all the recent work but a collection of all the work on a particular topic over time to help get an historical perspective.

Further, one needs to have extensive training to analyze and critically evaluate that which he reads.

One current day writer who is a journalist only gathers his information by calling up and speaking with researchers. Without a broad base of understanding across a large range of researchers, one will typically end up with biases and misinterpretations because he can?t work through all of the information that he receives.

Most of the current crop of writers and bloggers do not have the necessary background to perform the prerequisites I?ve established above.

[quote]DrGregEllis wrote:
@jehovasfitness @roon12
Check out the book “Energy Metabolism” page 163 by W PT James … you can see that this was disproven a long time ago !!
TEF across the board is about 6-10% of your total caloric daily expenditure !

@facko
RR Wolfe, lipogenesis published in the american journal of clinical nutrition, I believe that was in 1998 … search PubMed RR Wolf and you can read his findings … (when I say carbs convert to fat I mean carbs convert to glucose with is stored as fat)

@schanz_05
your primary source for fuel is what you are conditioned for … if your body is used to carbs for fuel then thats what your body will use … if your body is conditioned to use fat as fuel then that is what is used … while sitting at a desk or running or lifting weights …

[/quote]

Would you say that if one is conditioned to use fat as your primary fuel source that it would be as effective as glucose in providing energy for moderate to intense exercise?

And then would the body’s glycogen storages be in a constant state of depletion? Or would the body place less emphasis on glycogen storage because it is not of as much importance because fat is now the primary fuel?

As a nutrition and dietetics student (dual degree with exercise science) I think many would find it shocking that I myself believe in a diet such as this since it completely goes against conventional dietetic practice. Though I do not necessarily have target macros, if they were analysed this is exactly how they would end up, high fat (especially saturated), medium protein and low carbs. For carb sources I generally just think about micronutrients when deciding on what to eat. What Dr Ellis says is true, all carbs are converted to sugar (which is actually general knowledge amongst health professionals, it is the understanding of health effects of complex and simple carbs which are flawed in my opinion) so we must consider what we are obtaining. Vegetables contain micronutrients/phytonutrients which we need. Fruits also contain many of the same benefits but with greater sugar. I don’t see many benefits that you get from fruit which you can’t get in enough amounts from less carb dense options (vegetables, organ meats etc.) hence why I personally eat very little fruit (almost none) but still get in a decent amount of veggies.

So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

Lol exactly.

Dr Greg,

Thank you for your time on here and I had a question if you were familiar with carb back loading and potential long-term health concerns of large forced insulin secretions post-exercise?

Thank you

I know lots of people that eat quite a bit of carbs that are not weight lifters or sprinters so they are not creating a nice carb sink that remain in decent shape year round. I have counted their calories and carbs and the calories are not at some low level that you would say its just because their calories are so low. Then there are others myself included, that weightlift hard and eat large amount 400-600 or more carbs per day without adding any or a very small amount of fat. What would the explanation be behind people in these two groups. Obviously for some it is detrimental and they cannot handle carbs at all. Either because they cannot count calories or their body really doesnt not do well with them. But there are plenty of people and a lot on this site that eat a lot of carbs and have great physiques and good blood work/health markers.

Thanks for the response from anyone. Great discussion on here

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

No, they’re just lucky a holes.

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

Lol exactly.[/quote]

I have not seen and natural individuals eat really large amounts of carbs and stay lean/muscular. You can not use yourself as an example because from what I have read you train everyday for what seems hours, I mean were you not training 3x a day for a while.

[quote]maverick88 wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

Lol exactly.[/quote]

I have not seen and natural individuals eat really large amounts of carbs and stay lean/muscular. You can not use yourself as an example because from what I have read you train everyday for what seems hours, I mean were you not training 3x a day for a while.[/quote]

I’ve seen and worked with a few. Typically they’re younger, and to be honest they’re usually African American. That’s one race that mystifies me.

On one end, you have obese females, on the other you see jacked/ripped males with not so great diets or any idea of what “proper” nutrition is.

My mother is 52 years old and only does 50min of walking a day as exercise. No weights or anythign crazy. My grandmother is 73 years old and walks 3 mi a day and that is all for exercise. Both are in shape for their size and consume a large percentage of carbs in their diet and maintain their weight year round. Actually my mom recently lost 30lbs over the course of 6months (this was 1.5years ago). This was weight she added when her diet was less healthy (mainly my fault). So really its only young people who workout i disagree. And they are both white Scandinavians.

And about myself i workout everyday and have actually decreased volume and frequency and increased carbs and am leaner then i was when working out more often with less carbs.

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
My mother is 52 years old and only does 50min of walking a day as exercise. No weights or anythign crazy. My grandmother is 73 years old and walks 3 mi a day and that is all for exercise. Both are in shape for their size and consume a large percentage of carbs in their diet and maintain their weight year round. Actually my mom recently lost 30lbs over the course of 6months (this was 1.5years ago). This was weight she added when her diet was less healthy (mainly my fault). So really its only young people who workout i disagree.

And about myself i workout everyday and have actually decreased volume and frequency and increased carbs and am leaner then i was when working out more often with less carbs.[/quote]

I also work with tons of people at the gym in their 30s-40s, and at a senior center 60s-80s who are type 2 diabetic, heart problems, weight problems that consume the SAD of veggie oils, and tons of processed carbs (wheat included in that)

Obviously, the vast majority do not handle carbs that well, and as they continue to gain weight, they handle them even less well.

That’s why I like Berardi’s guidelines. Save CHO for after workouts, mainly slow digesting ones. But, if you’re leaner you can include them at other meals if needed.

One size does not fit all people and all goals, but IMO the American pop would greatly improve their health status by drastically reducing their CHO intake over what they currently take in.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

Lol exactly.[/quote]

I have not seen and natural individuals eat really large amounts of carbs and stay lean/muscular. You can not use yourself as an example because from what I have read you train everyday for what seems hours, I mean were you not training 3x a day for a while.[/quote]

I’ve seen and worked with a few. Typically they’re younger, and to be honest they’re usually African American. That’s one race that mystifies me.

On one end, you have obese females, on the other you see jacked/ripped males with not so great diets or any idea of what “proper” nutrition is. [/quote]

You can’t exactly make a blanket comment like that. Keeping in mind diabetes is a problem amongst black( darker skinned people in general).

Agreed but this is a bodybuilding site so what the best diet for sedentary people (especailly those that have the unfortunate genetics and no will power to control diet) does not really count towards a population that is very active and mindful of what they eat.

[quote]Chava bien wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So the individuals that consume large amounts of carbohydrates and reamain lean and even lose BF are anomalies?[/quote]

Lol exactly.[/quote]

I have not seen and natural individuals eat really large amounts of carbs and stay lean/muscular. You can not use yourself as an example because from what I have read you train everyday for what seems hours, I mean were you not training 3x a day for a while.[/quote]

I’ve seen and worked with a few. Typically they’re younger, and to be honest they’re usually African American. That’s one race that mystifies me.

On one end, you have obese females, on the other you see jacked/ripped males with not so great diets or any idea of what “proper” nutrition is. [/quote]

You can’t exactly make a blanket comment like that. Keeping in mind diabetes is a problem amongst black( darker skinned people in general).
[/quote]

I guess you’re right. Just an observation I’ve had among a few.

sorry i actually agree but not always. Sadly

@ Ryan, low CHO do have health benefits. Correct me if this is not the context of what you ate saying

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
but IMO the American pop would greatly improve their health status by drastically reducing their CHO intake over what they currently take in.[/quote]

I agree with this in principle, however is it the reduction in carbs that will cause the effect or is it that by limiting carbs and therefore limiting/eliminating pretty much all typical high-calorie snacks e.g. chocolate/cakes/chips/candy,cookies/sodas etc and causing calorie reduction simply by limited choices of food.

Anecdotally there are plenty of examples of people thriving on high-carb diets, look at any high school or college athletes so clearly exercise level is important.