[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
There’s no way you should be losing THAT much strength considering you only lost 5 lbs. Personally, it’d be unacceptable for me to lose that much strength for the whole 30 lbs of your cut. 255x3 to 235x3 is a huge deal.
#1) As Vir pointed out, your peri-workout nutrition is horrible. You’re not having any carbs before you train. If I did that just for a week, I’m positive all my lifts would suffer. That’s going to be the #1 culprit.
#2) Also, how many calories were you consuming before you started the diet? I’m assuming over 4000 because I’m around 240 and take in that much to maintain. I ask because you’re now at around 2300 (I plugged your diet in Fitday). That’s a huge shock to your body if you just cut calories from 4000 to 2300.
#3) Is this the same diet you use every single day? You might want to look into carb cycling and do your hardest, heaviest workouts on high carb days.
#4) Fitday tells me you only take in 250g protein. 1/2 of that from whey. Wouldn’t hurt to keep this up closer to 300.
#5) Are you doing any cardio? If so, what kind and how often?
Here’s a few Thibs articles that could be helpful. Also check out Stu’s 2 contest threads.
Good luck with the cut. I’m probably going to do a short 20-25 lbs one in March. For the record, I have dropped 5-10 lbs in the past without strength loss. I just ate all my an hour before and after my workout.
[/quote]
Thanks, I’ll look at stu thread, what he did. Thanks for your help.
Daily eating, no cheat meal
07h00: 2 scoop whey, 16 once milk, 1/2 cup oat, berry
12h00: 1 cup of rice, 8 once of meat
16h00: 1 scoop whey in water
17h30: Workout
19h00: 2 scoop whey in 8 once milk
19h30: 4 eggs, 2 slice of bread, some cheese
07h00: 2 scoops why =220, 16oz Milk =300, 1/2 cup oats =150
12h00: 1 cup rice =110, 8oz meat =450
16h00: 1 scoop whey in water =110
17h30: workout
19h00: 2 scoops whey in 8oz milk = 370
19h30: 4 eggs =300, 2 slices of bread =120, cheese = 75
Your total calorie intake is: 2205 < for someone 250lbs that’s not enough IMO
I’m going to have to go with others and suggest adding 500 more calories around your workouts along with some fish oil throughout the day. Good luck!
My bench has drop from 255x3 for my last set to 235x2.
[/quote]
I know this won’t be popular, but with those numbers, and “255x3” being your strongest, I think the last thing you need to be doing is cutting.[/quote]
I got your point and I largely agree with you. 255x3 is my strongest without losing rep speed and lifting the fastest I can. 255 lbs is around my 80% max. By lifting more slowly I can lift more heavy, and do more reps, but it’s irrelevant, because it’s still light anyway.
At 22-25% body fat, I’ll not help myself by gaining more fat. I’ll go down to 15% or 220 and then bulk again, just to kept things under control.
If I were you instead of changing multiple variables all at once, I would first try keeping everything the same with respect to total calories and macros and deduct some carbs protein from somewhere in the day and add them in as some form of simple carbs and fast acting protein right before you train.
If that doesn’t yield results, then try bumping up calories. Also…where are you getting your fats from in your diet? I only see eggs and cheese…for a guy your size, that might not be nearly enough dietary fat for you.
My bench has drop from 255x3 for my last set to 235x2.
[/quote]
I know this won’t be popular, but with those numbers, and “255x3” being your strongest, I think the last thing you need to be doing is cutting.[/quote]
I got your point and I largely agree with you. 255x3 is my strongest without losing rep speed and lifting the fastest I can. 255 lbs is around my 80% max. By lifting more slowly I can lift more heavy, and do more reps, but it’s irrelevant, because it’s still light anyway.
At 22-25% body fat, I’ll not help myself by gaining more fat. I’ll go down to 15% or 220 and then bulk again, just to kept things under control.
Let me know what you think about it.[/quote]
Well, first, it’s not what I think about it that matters. You need to do what you need to do for your goals, no?
If your goals are to look ripped at the expense of building muscle and stregnth (by cutting), then you are on the right path.
If you goals are to get bigger and stronger, then slashing your intake is wholly the wrong decision. There are ways to clean up your diet while dropping your calories a little bit, but still be in a caloric surplus. There have been several conversations in this forum and TCAlpha about the idea of ‘recomping’.
From my own recent experience, I cleaned up my diet strictly for a couple months, still at about 4000cals daily, and I’ve maintained my weight and leaned out a little (face a little thinner, a little more vascularity, steadily increasing lifting numbers…).
You mention your goal being XX% bodyfat. Honestly, what does that number really mean if the end result is really a subjective visual interpretation? You’d rather work down to a 225x3 bench at 10.34356% bodyfat versus a 315x3 at 18-20%? Which one do you think you’re going to be maintaining more muscle with?
Again, you’re goals are you’re goals, and I’m certainly not going to steer you from that, but cutting and losing muscle just to try to come back up, just to diet down seems like a vicious circle when you’re MAX weights are 225 (yeah, yeah someone will say it’s not about the max weight, but at some point, building muscle is about lifting progressively heavier weights)
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
If I were you instead of changing multiple variables all at once, I would first try keeping everything the same with respect to total calories and macros and deduct some carbs protein from somewhere in the day and add them in as some form of simple carbs and fast acting protein right before you train.
If that doesn’t yield results, then try bumping up calories. Also…where are you getting your fats from in your diet? I only see eggs and cheese…for a guy your size, that might not be nearly enough dietary fat for you.[/quote]
Would be Surge Recovery a good option for simple carbs + fast acting protein before the workout or you would go with whole food?
Yes, I got fat from cheese, meat and eggs. I’m going to put fish oil back in my diet.
My bench has drop from 255x3 for my last set to 235x2.
[/quote]
I know this won’t be popular, but with those numbers, and “255x3” being your strongest, I think the last thing you need to be doing is cutting.[/quote]
I got your point and I largely agree with you. 255x3 is my strongest without losing rep speed and lifting the fastest I can. 255 lbs is around my 80% max. By lifting more slowly I can lift more heavy, and do more reps, but it’s irrelevant, because it’s still light anyway.
At 22-25% body fat, I’ll not help myself by gaining more fat. I’ll go down to 15% or 220 and then bulk again, just to kept things under control.
Let me know what you think about it.[/quote]
Well, first, it’s not what I think about it that matters. You need to do what you need to do for your goals, no?
If your goals are to look ripped at the expense of building muscle and stregnth (by cutting), then you are on the right path.
If you goals are to get bigger and stronger, then slashing your intake is wholly the wrong decision. There are ways to clean up your diet while dropping your calories a little bit, but still be in a caloric surplus. There have been several conversations in this forum and TCAlpha about the idea of ‘recomping’.
From my own recent experience, I cleaned up my diet strictly for a couple months, still at about 4000cals daily, and I’ve maintained my weight and leaned out a little (face a little thinner, a little more vascularity, steadily increasing lifting numbers…).
You mention your goal being XX% bodyfat. Honestly, what does that number really mean if the end result is really a subjective visual interpretation? You’d rather work down to a 225x3 bench at 10.34356% bodyfat versus a 315x3 at 18-20%? Which one do you think you’re going to be maintaining more muscle with?
Again, you’re goals are you’re goals, and I’m certainly not going to steer you from that, but cutting and losing muscle just to try to come back up, just to diet down seems like a vicious circle when you’re MAX weights are 225 (yeah, yeah someone will say it’s not about the max weight, but at some point, building muscle is about lifting progressively heavier weights)[/quote]
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
There’s no way you should be losing THAT much strength considering you only lost 5 lbs. Personally, it’d be unacceptable for me to lose that much strength for the whole 30 lbs of your cut. 255x3 to 235x3 is a huge deal.
#1) As Vir pointed out, your peri-workout nutrition is horrible. You’re not having any carbs before you train. If I did that just for a week, I’m positive all my lifts would suffer. That’s going to be the #1 culprit.
#2) Also, how many calories were you consuming before you started the diet? I’m assuming over 4000 because I’m around 240 and take in that much to maintain. I ask because you’re now at around 2300 (I plugged your diet in Fitday). That’s a huge shock to your body if you just cut calories from 4000 to 2300.
#3) Is this the same diet you use every single day? You might want to look into carb cycling and do your hardest, heaviest workouts on high carb days.
#4) Fitday tells me you only take in 250g protein. 1/2 of that from whey. Wouldn’t hurt to keep this up closer to 300.
#5) Are you doing any cardio? If so, what kind and how often?
Here’s a few Thibs articles that could be helpful. Also check out Stu’s 2 contest threads.
Good luck with the cut. I’m probably going to do a short 20-25 lbs one in March. For the record, I have dropped 5-10 lbs in the past without strength loss. I just ate all my an hour before and after my workout.
[/quote]
x2 Great post ^^^
What I have to add to this is really important:
YOU’VE GOT TO DO CARDIO!!!
LOL…don’t mean to sound patronising there, but cardio doesn’t just burn calories, it enables you to eat more while cutting and supports muscle maintenance. When you mix cardio with slightly less calories (less than is needed to maintain weight), it doesn’t just double the effect/results, it multiplies the effect/results.
When you do cardio (e.g. HIIT), it alters your hormones, so that you burn fat not just while exercising, but after too (even in your sleep!).
So, increase your calories (I think you’ve already done that - 3000 seems ok, but see how it goes), and do some cardio 2-3 times per week (after training if time is limited). I get pathetic results form slow pace cardio compared to HIIT. I did slow pace cardio every day for weeks, and didn’t get half the results I did from doing only a fraction of time using HIIT (it was only 10 mins, 3 times a week).
As the saying goes, burn the fat, don’t starve it. Avoid starvation mode, do your cardio, and you’ll keep strength FAR better and lose MUCH more fat
PS - Carbs aren’t all that bad, they can help kick start your metabolism, keep strength up, and boost anabolism (via insulin) etc…hence why it’s good to eat enough of them (the idea behind carb cycling).
OP: Maybe you haven’t lost as much strength as you think, and you’ve just been tired from the decrease in carbs. You could test this theory by sleeping well and carbing up a bit before your next workout. If your lifts jump, then you probably are just tired.
This isn’t likely the case, but I wanted to point it out.
[quote]Brazil wrote:
OP: Maybe you haven’t lost as much strength as you think, and you’ve just been tired from the decrease in carbs. You could test this theory by sleeping well and carbing up a bit before your next workout. If your lifts jump, then you probably are just tired.
This isn’t likely the case, but I wanted to point it out.[/quote]
I got a couple of cheat meal and did eat more in the last 2 days and my strength is almost all back.
But I have to address it before continuing the cut. With a better pre-workout meal and more food overall it should be ok I think, I’ll let you know.
Cheats? Whoa, careful - I’m not sure you are on track yet.
Firstly, are you a fat-ass?
The diet, the lifts and > 250lb makes me fear there could be >40lbs of fat to lose. My apologies if unfair but will need to accept the cold hard truth if so and adjust your priorities. The mirror lies, take photos.
My advice:
i) Cardio
An absolute must as ijm says. Unlike ijm, I’ve seen the effect of simply walking every day in myself and others. The bigger you are, the better it is. I do like HIIT (sprints) but it can easily interfere with lifting especially at a deficit.
If you can add walking to your daily routine in a way you enjoy, I’m confident you will notice a tremendous improvement after a month. Treadmills suck so if can you say, walk to work or park the car in a different spot to build in a 30 min walk to\from work each day, I am sure you would see and feel an improvement without affecting recovery.
ii) Diet
Your diet sucks on many levels, the pre-work-out, the milk (maybe for some on a bulk but no way on a cut), the bread in the last meal (try a carb-cut-off at 6:00), the lack of meat. It just got worse by fixing a broke diet with cheats. Hell no.
I usually agree with the ‘don’t tweak too many variables’ but IMHO there is too much to gain from a complete overhaul. You can up the calories only if you improve the food sources and timing. You will feel much better, lose fat and yes, depending on the rate of fat loss you want, you can even gain on some lifts.
I’ll post my diet to show what IMHO a solid plan might look like. I am 60lb lighter, much lower bf, eating more yet losing fat. Sound good? Its a carb-cycling approach which I find psychologically very satisfying to eat with pleasure and no straying.
High (back & leg days) - 4100 cal, 113 fat, 320 carb, 435 pro
I got all my strength back with a couple of cheat meal, clean carbs, couple of rest days and a lot of sleep. I’m ready to be back on my cut, but with an updated meal plan, based on your input.
As suggested, I fixed the pre-worlouk meal, add some protein in my post-workout meal to have more protein in my day and more total calorie. Also added fish oil.
SUMMARY:
Calorie: 3300+ (I did not count/list any veggie in the total)
Protein: 313
Carbs: 260
Fat: 100
DETAILED:
07h00: Cal: 798, Pro: 72g, Carbs: 81g, Fat: 20g
10g fish oil, 1 cup blueberries, 1/2 cup dry oat, 16oz skim milk, 2 scoop of whey
12h00: Cal: 633, Pro: 74g, Carbs: 46g, Fat: 15g
1 cup brown rice, 8 once beef
[quote]randman wrote:
I’ll give you some “reality feedback” that I rarely see posted here on this subject. Unless you are a serious drug-assisted athlete, and even in many of those cases, you will eventually lose “some” strength on a cutting diet.
I’ve seen some people post “I’ve gained strength while cutting”, etc. I’d say in response to those: either you are taking some drugs or you are in the newbie stages of lifting still. Very, very few people will maintain all of their strength while cutting down. Your numbers may not dip much, but they will dip.
Bottom-line is that you have to get over the lifting numbers just a little bit if you want to really lean out. It has happened to me every single time I’ve cut now matter which type of parameters I’ve manipulated: lifting style (heavy/low rep, volume-focused/short rest time, etc), diet style, energy type work, etc. For me, it just comes with the territory. With that being said, every time I’ve bulked again I always end up stronger than I was during the last cycle.
The goal is to just minimize strength loss since it’s so difficult to maintain 100% of your strength when cutting. If your losing a significant amount of strength early on then you may be dropping too many calories too fast. For only losing 5 lbs in a month at your initial weight and bf %, I wouldn’t think you would be losing that much on your bench this soon. You may want to count up your calories and compare to what you were doing before. I would start out only dropping 200 cals/day or so and then adjust from there based on your progress.
The other thing you can do is look at your lifting style and consider going heavy/low rep to encourage strength maintenance/muscle retention.
The bottom-line though is that you need to decide whether you want to lean up or not. If you do, in most cases you will have to accept some level of strength loss. If you can’t deal with this mentally, you’ll never make the commitment to get lean.[/quote]
Yep. I concur.
People in general would make far more progress if they simply directed their focus either on pure strength or aesthetic gains to the exclusion of the other.
I had to change something, because I was either loosing strength and weight or not loosing strength and not loosing weight.
I did the switch for the anabolic diet with a couple of carbs meals instead of 2 full days (I’m on it since a month). I feel great.
Past the initial water lost, I’m loosing around 1 pound a week and I’m maintaining my strength and getting a little stronger on some lift. So far so good. I feel it will be easier for me to keep muscle on this king of diet.
I eat 2700-3000 cal a day mainly of eggs, full fat cheese, beef, fish and olive oil, peperoni and broccoli.
That’s good that you found something that worked. Seeing your original post I was going to suggest dropping the milk and the bread for some other carb source.
I had to change something, because I was either loosing strength and weight or not loosing strength and not loosing weight.
I did the switch for the anabolic diet with a couple of carbs meals instead of 2 full days (I’m on it since a month). I feel great.
Past the initial water lost, I’m loosing around 1 pound a week and I’m maintaining my strength and getting a little stronger on some lift. So far so good. I feel it will be easier for me to keep muscle on this king of diet.
During the wrestling season this year, I was cutting 20lbs. I wrestled 197lb weight class, I maintained roughly 200lbs. While I was doing this my strength went up, not sure if this is the reason. But I would lift 20mins in the morning(not including warm-up) panned out to be about 30mins. All i did was low reps and more sets, in and out. I used the O-Lifts and front squat with a few preventative exercises. I am not saying this will work for you but it seemed to keep my strength moving up and my weight down. In the afternoons we had full practice for two hours as well. Just wanted to post and share my experiance. Good Luck with the Cut!
