Looters

[quote]futuredave wrote:
rainjack wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Are you doing a damn thing to help? Somehow I think you are just running your mouth.

You think a lot of things. As a matter of fact, my contribution is in the four figures and that doesn’t include decimal points. If I haven’t bragged about it, it’s because I was raised with the following admonition from Matthew 6:

“Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”

BTW,
If you like Jesus - as you said you did, why do you constantly side with the religous zealots that murdered him? No, you are a Jesus hater.

According to your religion, his death was necessary for your salvation. So get off your high horse about how he died, since, even if it’s true, Jesus himself said, “Father, forgive them for the know not what to do.”

As for voicing your opinion, you call “bullshit” I call “hypocrite.” If you want to be “Christian” there’s a way to do it. Reference any post by Monkey_space to see how a Christian talks. I mean, come on, it’s thread after thread after thread of “Fuck you’s” etc. I’m not the first one who’s felt this way about the level of vitriol in your communications.

By the way, his wholiness GWB called the relief results unacceptable this morning. What a spoiled f’ing kid, huh?[/quote]

Whatever, Davy. You have used religion in an attempt to take this thread off topic. Why? I have no idea. But you are the one spewing hatred here, not me. There is no need to attack someone’s faith because they said you were acting like a spoiled child. But you knew that, didn’t you - Davy?

Why are you wasting your time with me if I am such a foul mouthed heathen? Just ignore me. But you won’t. you go out of your way to insult me and tell me I’m not acting good enough. Like I said before - you sure enjoy wearing the judges robe.

So the president said the efforts were unacceptable. I don’t think he used any names, and pulled up 4 year old newspaper articles to try and show everyone how hoorible it is.

Please continue your childish outbursts. I am really enjoying watching you turn red at the thought of my posts.

But I do respect your contributions. I apologize for accusing you of not stepping up.

[quote]Keith Wassung wrote:
Wow, the Astrodome is packed to capacity-has that ever happened before?

This is the second time that the Astrodome has been used in a national crisis-the first was back in the 1970’s when the killer bees invaded Texas. A man driving a vw beetle accidently had his horn go off and it caused the killer bees to swarm the car-he then drove it into the Astrodome where they sealed off the entrance and used the temperature control panels to drop the temperature low enough to kill the bees and thus avert a national disaster-I am pretty sure that is how it happened, though I was a boy at the time.

[/quote]
That had to be late 70’s, because I remember seeing it, and I was born in 72.

Back to the subject, looting is a problem that needs to be stopped for several reasons. The main one being it has hampered and stopped search and rescue missions. The rescue teams are no longer safe. The people still in N.O. are beyond desperate and are willing to do things that aren’t reational to the rest of us. This behavior causes fear in those exposed to it and fear causes hysteria. These people are scared. The cities that are sheltering the victims are having trouble keeping order. They are restless, hungry, and tired. The crowds are spilling into mall and Wal-Mart parking lots. The police in Baton Rouge and Gaonzales have been sent to quell disturbances in these open places.

I witnessed the police at two different locations dealing with crowds this morning while on my way to work. The citizens of the Greater Baton Rouge area are becoming fearful of the looting and pillaging as it is making its way into the subdivisions and more rural areas. There are literally people wandering the streets with nowhere to go.

Neihborhoods are becoming overwhelmed with evacuees filing in the streets and setting up camp. The stores in town are guarded by deputees because there has been scuffles in them already. The situation is getting worse each hour. We are arming ouselves in hopes to deter any further looting. Our area is watching each others homes to ensure ther is no looting.

We feel sorry for the victims, but we are victims too. And we will not be taken advantage of. The looting must be stopped because it breeds fear, and fear is the worst enemy in a situaion such as this. I have read that these people are behaving like animals. In many cases, it’s true. There are those that intend to gain as much as possible. Then there are those that just want to survive.

I don’t think the majority of the people in this country understands the magnitude of this disaster. This storm has forever changed the USA. N.O. was a major port for commerce and trade. Now it may never be the same. Everone will be impacted from this and not just in the way of high gas prices. The gulf states need all the help they can get.

According to this article, the budget for the Army Corps of Engineers’ efforts to strengthen New Orleans’ protection against flooding was continuously cut over the last few years, with the money being diverted to the War in Iraq.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

I’m actually starting to like you rainjack. Hell must be freezing over soon…

[quote]rainjack wrote:
This is the same thing as blaming Bush for 9/11.[/quote]

Bush compared this to 9/11, not me. Actually, I believe the comparison is not only absurd, it is insulting, for so many reasons.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Name another natural disaster that has hit the U.S. which can claim totally wiping out the 23rd largest city in the nation. I’m thinking you can’t. Not in your lifetime. [/quote]

I can’t argue with that, no. I admit I was being a bit anal about your exact wording, but that was my point: there have been worst disasters, but of a completely different nature.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
To sit back in the comfort of your home and point fingers is just pure bullshit. There will be more than enough time for all the ABBers to blame Bush later. I’m not saying that criticism isn’t a part of the process - but let’s concentrate on the problem at hand rather than bitching about what the president did/didn;t do.[/quote]

Actually I was at an airport (Salt Lake City) when I wrote that. :wink:

Now seriously, I can’t argue with that either. It’s definitely time to concentrate on the problem.

This article is interesting, and touches on some of the more interesting comparisons and questions that have come up with respect to the “why” of our seeming lack of preparedness.


To Understand
Katrina’s Problems
Read 9/11 Report
September 2, 2005; Page A14

Imagination is not a gift usually associated with bureaucracies.
–The 9/11 Commission Report

The response to Hurricane Katrina suggests we are not very good at it. The stark images of bereft people in New Orleans and Mississippi are said to reveal inadequate preparation by the agents of government – from elected officials to bureaucracies – whose duties include commanding the vast resources and authority of government to provide help when it is most needed.

To be sure, the scale of Katrina’s force and devastation overwhelms the notion of a rationally organized response. The grim fact remains that disasters are relatively commonplace in the world. Swiss Re, the big reinsurance group, annually publishes a compendium called “Natural catastrophes and man-made disasters” listing the human and economic toll. In 2004, it recorded 116 natural catastrophes, with the Dec. 26 Asian tsunami leaving more than 280,000 dead or missing. Less well-remembered, often the case with Third World disaster, a June monsoon killed 1,845 in Bangladesh and Hurricane Jeanne in September left some 3,000 dead in Haiti, whose flooded city of Gonaives looked like New Orleans.

An industry of experts has emerged, dedicated to mitigating disasters, both their imminence and aftermath. Science magazine just dedicated its cover to “Dealing with Disasters.” We know quite a lot.

Specialists in disaster mitigation hold annual conferences to share knowledge. In January in Japan, the U.N. held the five-day World Conference on Disaster Reduction, with numerous representatives from member states. A week earlier in Mauritius, Secretary-General Kofi Annan called for “a global warning system” for tsunamis and “all other threats.” Specialized disaster Web sites exist, such as the Pan American Health Organization’s site on Disasters and Humanitarian Assistance. The U.S. oceanographic administration has created the Center for Tsunami Inundation Mapping Efforts, a sophisticated modeling program to help vulnerable nations in the Pacific.

So if we’re so smart, why are Louisiana and Mississippi sinking beneath water and red tape?

It has been reported in past days how the relief agencies, such as the Army Corps of Engineers and FEMA are struggling; basics such as food distribution are in disarray. On paper anyway, many of these problems had already been addressed. By law, FEMA requires all states, if they are to receive grant money, to file both pre- and post-catastrophe mitigation plans. Experts in Louisiana, and indeed New Orleans, have been drafting one for several years.

We know what to do. We have many specialists in the arcane disciplines relevant to understanding natural and man-made disasters. We know what to do, but we are not good at using what we know. Why not?

We fail to use well what we know because we rely too much on large public bureaucracies. This was the primary lesson of the 9/11 Commission Report. Large public bureaucracies, whether the FBI and the CIA or FEMA and the Corps of Engineers, don’t talk to each other much. They are poorly incentivized, if at all. Budgets, the oxygen of the acronymic planets, make bureaucracy’s managers first responders to constant political whim. Real-world problems, as the 9/11 report noted, inevitably seem distant and minor: “Once the danger has fully materialized, evident to all, mobilizing action is easier – but it then may be too late.”

Homeland Security, a new big bureaucracy, has struggled since 2001 to assemble a feasible plan to respond to another major terror event inside the U.S. The possibility, or likelihood, of a bird-borne flu pandemic is beginning to reach public awareness, but the government is at pains to create a sufficient supply of vaccine or a distribution system for anti-viral medicines. Any bets on which will come first – the flu or the distribution system?

Big public bureaucracies are going to get us killed. They already have. One may argue that this is an inevitable result of living in an advanced and complex democracy. Yes, up to a point. An open political system indeed breeds inefficiencies (though possibly the Jeb Bush administration that dealt with Hurricane Andrew is more competent than Gov. Blanco’s team in Louisiana). And perhaps low-lying, self-indulgent New Orleans understood its losing bargain with a devil’s fate.

But we ought to at least recognize that our increasingly tough First World problems – terrorism, viruses, the rising incidence of powerful natural disasters – are being addressed by a public sector that too often is coming to resemble a Third World that can’t execute.

I’ll go further. We should consider outsourcing some of these functions, for profit, to the private sector. In recent days, offers of help have come from such companies as Anheuser-Busch and Culligan (water), Lilly, Merck and Wyeth (pharmaceuticals), Nissan and GM (cars and trucks), Sprint, Nextel and Qwest (communications gear and phone cards), Johnson & Johnson (toiletries and first aid), Home Depot and Lowe’s (manpower). Give contract authority to organize these resources to a project-management firm like Bechtel. Use the bureaucracies as infantry.

A public role is unavoidable and political leadership is necessary. But if we’re going to live with First World threats, such as the destruction of a major port city, let’s deploy the most imaginative First World brains – in the private sector and academia – to mitigate those threats. Laughably implausible? Look at your TV screen. The status quo isn’t funny.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There is NOTHING that could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Not the President. Not FEMA. Not the entire Congressional Black Caucus. [/quote]

I don’t understand this reasoning.

It was known that a hurricane was coming. It was a force 5 hurricane, hence the authorities knew it was going to hit hard.

I’m also pretty sure that people KNEW that New Orleans is below sea level. I don’t understand how no one tought of the possibility that the dam or levee might break.

Don’t they have people that dream up those scenarios? Try to imagine the worst beforehand, and plan as best as possible for it.

Instead of packing people in stadiums, why not bus them out of the region before the shit hits the fan. I understand that most who got left back where poor people who had no means to get out, but use the emergency funds before the disaster to remove as many people as possible from the area.

I can’t believe the images we’re seeing on TV. It’s like they’re filming in Rwanda or something, but it’s in the U.S. It’s simply unbelievable. What has the dept. of Homeland Security been doing since 2001? What does FEMA do when there’s no emergency going on?

I can’t believe the argument that no one saw this coming; no one could know how bad it would be. That’s what those agencies are supposed to be there for. Dream up all the scenarios you can imagine, rank’em from best to worst and prepare before the hurricane makes landfall. Think of everything you can, no matter how outlandish or improbably and MAKE A PLAN to respond to it. So when whatever scenario happens, you can start coordinating the relief effort intelligently and SWIFTLY.

People all over the place are donating, we’ve been seeing calls for donations here, on many other sites; receiving emails. I (and many others) have donated, but at this point, I don’t think that money is the problem. It seems that there simply never was any planning done for this type of situation and too many people have to improvise as they go along. This leads to a colossal waste of resources and time and it’s being paid with human lives.

Incredible.

This is a politically motivated article, not an objective analysis. Honestly, it seems disrespectful to me to turn these victims’ suffering into a case for privitization.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
This article is interesting, and touches on some of the more interesting comparisons and questions that have come up with respect to the “why” of our seeming lack of preparedness.


[/quote]

Just thinking about the looting and gangs again, I am reminded of “Lord of the Flies”. Is this really what happens when you leave man alone without a structured and orderly political hierarchy and means to enforce the law? Apparently it is true that the only way to protect freedom is through laws and law enforcement.

[quote]John K wrote:
This is a politically motivated article, not an objective analysis. Honestly, it seems disrespectful to me to turn these victims’ suffering into a case for privitization.

BostonBarrister wrote:
This article is interesting, and touches on some of the more interesting comparisons and questions that have come up with respect to the “why” of our seeming lack of preparedness.


[/quote]

It’s not disrespectful to look at what happened and discern what systematic flaws, if any, are contributing to our lack of ability to deal with the problem.

The question is, whether the article puts forth a plausible analysis.

And it didn’t argue for complete privatization. The argument is that bureaucracies are bad at implementing high-level plans for action in these cases. I believe the article specifically said that government would play a necessary role in implemenation.

I don’t find the premises flawed. I think there’s a lot to be said for utilizing private-sector resources in this area, though by no means do I have an overall implementation strategy in mind.

This thread wins the award for most hijacks, and useless tangents.

Should looters be shot?

That is way to broad a subject for a simple yes or no answer.

If a man is watching his family starve, then I hardly think you would shoot him, for taking some food or water.

If a man is taking off with a TV, etc…, then I still don’t think it would hardly be justified to take his life.

However, looting, especially in the midst of such a large scale disaster, is not the same thing as “normal” theft.

The problem with looting, is the effect of progression.

First, we loot food and water, this is excused.

Next, we loot material goods. Since the goods would have been lost anyway, this is also excused.

Then, we go from looting to violence. Robbery, rape, and murder.

If you are going to draw a line, and you want to hold that line, you had best draw it early.

Anarchy can not be allowed to take over.

If lethal force is necessary to stop the anarchy, then so be it.

The looter, the robber, the rapist, and the murderer, has only himself to blame.

It is by their own action that they de-value their life, and thereby make themselves expendable.

On a personal note, I am amazed by the stealing. What exactly are the looters going to do with the hi-tech stuff that they are stealing?

Right now, if I was in any area, not affected by the hurricane, and I stole some material good, I would be a thief. If I stole something from someone, by threat of violence, I would be a robber. If I forced myself upon a helpless woman, I would be a rapist. If I killed someone, I would be a murderer.

Why then should this not be true in New Orleans?

What kind of person can be wading through a combination of dead bodies and sewage, and be worried about stealing a TV.

I have some thoughts about all the other issues that been brought up on this thread, but that would be another hijak.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
But I do respect your contributions. I apologize for accusing you of not stepping up.
[/quote]

No problem. Let’s just put this whole ridiculous hijack behind us.

Oh, as far as being with those that killed Jesus… only if He was looting!

Peace.

Ill try to make this brief …

I don’t understand the surpise at the looting. The skin of civilisation is very thin and we are ALL animals in the end.

For example Jews returning from the lagers after WW2 to their homes only to find their neighbour living in it telling them to f… off. As much as we all would like t oclose our eyes on it and go LALALALALA, this is what we people we are. When ever there is war and despair these things (and worse, just pick up a history book)will happen.

All though some are better to keep up the facade of civilsation then others. Lets hope (and even pray for the believers among you)that humanity will grow up so that these things dont happen anymore

[quote]apex123 wrote:
Ill try to make this brief …

I don’t understand the surpise at the looting. The skin of civilisation is very thin and we are ALL animals in the end.

For example Jews returning from the lagers after WW2 to their homes only to find their neighbour living in it telling them to f… off. As much as we all would like t oclose our eyes on it and go LALALALALA, this is what we people we are. When ever there is war and despair these things (and worse, just pick up a history book)will happen.

All though some are better to keep up the facade of civilsation then others. Lets hope (and even pray for the believers among you)that humanity will grow up so that these things dont happen anymore [/quote]

Hope springs eternal.

[quote]Scott1010220 wrote:
This thread wins the award for most hijacks, and useless tangents.

Should looters be shot?

That is way to broad a subject for a simple yes or no answer.

If a man is watching his family starve, then I hardly think you would shoot him, for taking some food or water.

If a man is taking off with a TV, etc…, then I still don’t think it would hardly be justified to take his life.

However, looting, especially in the midst of such a large scale disaster, is not the same thing as “normal” theft.

The problem with looting, is the effect of progression.

First, we loot food and water, this is excused.

Next, we loot material goods. Since the goods would have been lost anyway, this is also excused.

Then, we go from looting to violence. Robbery, rape, and murder.

If you are going to draw a line, and you want to hold that line, you had best draw it early.

Anarchy can not be allowed to take over.

If lethal force is necessary to stop the anarchy, then so be it.

The looter, the robber, the rapist, and the murderer, has only himself to blame.

It is by their own action that they de-value their life, and thereby make themselves expendable.

On a personal note, I am amazed by the stealing. What exactly are the looters going to do with the hi-tech stuff that they are stealing?

Right now, if I was in any area, not affected by the hurricane, and I stole some material good, I would be a thief. If I stole something from someone, by threat of violence, I would be a robber. If I forced myself upon a helpless woman, I would be a rapist. If I killed someone, I would be a murderer.

Why then should this not be true in New Orleans?

What kind of person can be wading through a combination of dead bodies and sewage, and be worried about stealing a TV.

I have some thoughts about all the other issues that been brought up on this thread, but that would be another hijak.[/quote]

Most of the looting is well planned complex operations. The gangs and such have been waiting on this. That’s why there’s been shots fired at the rescuers and police. They want to stall help as long as they can to move the goods to dry land and have them shipped away. Sounds ludicrous, but it’s true. There’s millions of dollars in banks and depositories that are up for grabs. This is more organized than people think. It isn’t all random looting. Why do you think there are people toting automatic weapons and seen ready to fight?

BigRagoo, are these gangs ,ones that normally deal in drugs or are the into other things.Thanks for the info. it makes the picture clear for people that are’nt from your area.

Flood in the states - 10000, 20000, 30000 victims, huge problem.

Earthquake in Iran - 50000+, no problem.

[quote]ron33 wrote:
BigRagoo, are these gangs ,ones that normally deal in drugs or are the into other things.Thanks for the info. it makes the picture clear for people that are’nt from your area.[/quote]

Yes, these are the same people. They are tied to other operations throughout the country, just like mafia and other organized crime. The drug problem has been no secret in NO. Drugs are very easy to come by. Being that NO is a party city, it feeds itself.

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
Flood in the states - 10000, 20000, 30000 victims, huge problem.

Earthquake in Iran - 50000+, no problem.[/quote]

What are you trying to say?

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Rookie21 wrote:
Flood in the states - 10000, 20000, 30000 victims, huge problem.

Earthquake in Iran - 50000+, no problem.

What are you trying to say?[/quote]

Someone who is ticked off because the USA is great… :slight_smile: