Longtime Members... Gone

Off Topic
141

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
chimera182 wrote:

I’m not trying to argue with you, but isn’t trying to avoid getting bashed by other companies reasonable?

Not sure if my last post went through (would be ironic if it didn’t).

No, it is not reasonable because, given the generally positive feedback over the entire Biotest line, you can think of this site as an ecosystem where disturbances would normalize over time; meaning, one single bad apple giving a shitty review of a product- if they are truly a troll - should be outted for the most part by the long time members or people with good experiences with a product. So, that is not something necessitating moderation, as long as customers are kept happy. Their loyalty will do most of the necessary “policing.”

Besides, there is a HUGE difference between “Guys, this product did not do much for me…here were my results” and “guys, don’t buy this product. it is overpriced. Go to xyz.com and get a cheaper equivalent.”

I think the former case (which I consider fully legitimate) has been moderated, usually to the point of deleting the post entirely. It’s definitely happened to me.

And TC,

I know some former posters have been mentioned as no longer coming here or purchasing Biotest stuff. I can assure you the 6-7 I mentioned are NOT any of the already mentioned posters.

But it does suck that someone like NateDogg was supposedly banned. Someone who has spent thousands on Biotest. Real shame and truly crappy oversight from a business perspective. Just seems like Biotest has SO much faith in attracting the V-Diet type crowd (mass appeal) and in selling more and more expensive supplements that they don’t “need to care” about retaining long time customers.

If I’m wrong, I want to hear it and I want an example as to why.[/quote]

If someone who spent thousands of dollars here was banned, don’t you think there must have been a good reason?

Please think about it for a second.

If we’re ever together in a bar somewhere and I’m very drunk and surrounded by a team of lawyers, I might tell you about some of the stuff we’ve had to deal with. And some of it’s XXX rated.

But as far as Nate, he’s been reinstated. Tim had a long conversation with him on Friday and everything’s good.

142

[quote]TC wrote:
SSC wrote:
Vash wrote:
Professor X wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
chimera182 wrote: I used to be such a fan of his, even considered doing the V-Diet. Not saying he’s not a smart guy (cause he is), but I’d rather get big.

He was cool at first. I liked his older stuff. Then he got a few people riding his nuts. Now he’s insufferable. He considers himself a guru.

He’s easy enough to ignore when he’s not changing the editorial tone of the articles. Thankfully TC isn’t totally in absentia. Once TC is gone, this site is dead.

Oh, and I’m not some guy who goes around all “hard core” or throws a fit anytime there isn’t an article mentioning steroids. I read Men’s Health, Best Life, Outside, and all sorts of other metro magazines.

It’s when people believe their own hype that they are obnoxious.

This beats anything I was going to type.

I just read Shug’s I’m Back . . .

Damn. I mean, I stopped enjoying his articles a while ago, and find it hard to read through an article with his editorial voice as the one most heard, but . . .

As long as the turds keep buying stuff. Wow. That’s edgy. That’s bleeding edge. That’s the kind of hard core a diet-to-perfection, not-gonna-suffer-in-training-after-this kinda person expects from something with Muscle in the metatext. Hell, that’s what the regulars want, too. To see that the testicles are still attached to our great editorial staff! Fuck yeah!!! Love it or leave it!!!

I’m a Biotest whore, by the way. The vast majority of my posts are in the Get a Life section, and the S&N section, the latter primarily saying “X Biotest Sups is Da Best!” I’ve neglected to discuss training for a long time since it both feels like working with a new and unmotivated client and has the effect of pissing in the wind. But wow.

A few years ago, even with Shugart in the same position, I would have had no problems referring a client to the website, looking around, and picking up supps for a specific goal. Now, I think I’ll be lumping there stuff in with my orders.

Really Chris. Perhaps you should come live back down with the rest of us. Yes, we’re all hip deep in shit. But, some of us know it. Being, you know, turds and all.

Well, I’m not going to sugarcoat anything here. I haven’t been around as long as many people commenting on this thread, but after reading Shugart’s article, I’m pretty amazed.

In fact, I’m goddamn near offended. That is the biggest bullshit ploy I’ve ever read on this site.

I’ve spent a HELL of a lot of money in the short time I’ve been around this site on supplements, to be called a “turd” by a guy who hardly even looks like he works out? That is fucking heinous.

I do enjoy the fact that Chris Shugart needs to try to elevate himself above Biotest’s faithful “TURD” customers because he doesn’t look any different now than he did years ago. What I don’t enjoy, though, is a direct insult.

Chris Shugart may have use to been pudgy, but I goddamn-guarantee he didn’t look ANYTHING like I use to. I dropped an incredible amount of weight and want to bodybuild… and I get insulted for it?

Oh, but wait, I didn’t use his AWESOME diet program. Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?

Because of that, there’s a very good chance I will permanently halt and further purchases with Biotest. I’ve recommended countless friends and others pursuing great bodies to Biotest, that’s probably going to change as well, unfortunately.

And it’s a real shame. You guys talk about using judgement calls, and you leave that shit up on one of the CONTRIBUTOR’S blogs? Fuck that. I’m disgusted.

And you know what, you can go ahead and edit my post if you want, and I’m sure you will.

Just know that there is a very real chance Biotest is losing a customer willing to fork cash out the ass for supplements.

EDIT: As long as I’m a bit more clear-headed, let me explain myself a bit more thouroughly. I work at Best Buy, and I know that if I ever called a customer a “turd” (Even a punk kid who comes in and buys a random CD,) my ass would be fired faster than I could apologize.

I just don’t get the inconsistancy between what’s “Testosterone” around here and what’s “Extremely Unprofessional.” I can’t buy an employee getting away with saying that kind of shit without any kind of reprocussions.

You know, I read Shugart’s column, and even I was so offended I almost vowed to stop using Biotest supplements!

Seriously.

Then I had a reverse “Hair Club for Men” moment and realized that I’m not only a member, but an owner, too.

Let me say this. Tim and I strongly disagree with most of the stuff Chris said. (We discussed it yesterday). We think TMuscle and the forums are just about perfect. And if our readers/customers are turds, well, we like turds and we’re turds, too.

And I like the T Alpha forum. I was instrumental in getting it started, so I don’t like it being called a failure.

But please remember, Tim and I are the only ones around here who set policy. No one else.

But Chris is certainly entitled to his own opinions. He’s a gifted writer and he has incredible talent for learnin’ people stuff. So I do the Obama thing and I brush my shoulder off.

[/quote]

What gets me beyond anything, however, isn’t the…gifted writing potential he clearly displayed with this last work of sheer GENIUS…but the whining as if he is being needlessly attacked for his views.

He isn’t. I see him as somewhat like that chihuahua who stole the hearts of millions and forced them into Taco bell gluttony at the feet of the mighty dollar menu. He can talk, he fits in your pocket and fat people love him.

I just don’t see the martyr here and his V-Diet forums probably need much less moderation because no one with any real size on them is going in there in a regular basis.

I personally find the fan worship to be humorous…since most of them don’t stand out as serious weight lifters and seem to share his own…impressive muscularity.

Oh well, controversy sells.

143

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
chimera182 wrote:
PonceDeLeon wrote:
TC,

I think most people appreciate you coming in and offering an explanation, but if you really care to know, I can tell you that a good 6-7 of your long-time customers now shop elsewhere (they have told me explicitly). This is due mostly to the moderation issue. I am not exaggerating because I have joined that crowd now.

If Biotest makes such high quality supplements and believes so highly in its R&D and marketing teams, then I feel having open, unmoderated customer feedback not only keeps Biotest honest by holding it accountable, but also serves as a great PR for the company (if much of the feedback is positive, as is usually the case).

I once wrote that I got nothing out of Spike (I still don’t) and a few members chimed in saying the same, but I was immediately sent a PM that my views do not reflect the majority of customers’ experiences. Well, no shit. It’s called variance in stimulant-response. You even had Poliquin write that people can sometimes experience the opposite effect of what a stimulant is known to do.

And the explanation for moderation of certain posts (namely regarding Biotest products) that your competitors have been known to sabotage you guys on the public forums is really weak; even weaker given that the response is a template response, which I know I have been PM’d twice and seen the exact language of in different threads.

I just can’t seem to buy the excuse of the rogue, Nazi mod causing problems. Given the change in direction of the site (post V-Diet success), it seems that the House of Patterson is receiving many upgrades and round-the-clock surveillance (monitoring of posts) is definitely one of them.

I’m not trying to argue with you, but isn’t trying to avoid getting bashed by other companies reasonable?

It has become far too Orwellian - “Thought Police” and “Thought Crime.”

Better example:

I have noticed posts where Biotest product names seem curiously capitalized, as if to be exploited as some subliminal advertising campaign.

What poster REGULARLY writes “HOT-ROX Extreme” or “Surge Workout Fuel” in his/her posts?

Clearly, some mods go back and capitalize product names. THAT is what I am sick of seeing. That is what moderating has become - unethical.[/quote]

We set it up so most of the products spellings are auto-corrected.

The mods DO have instructions to correct spellings on products, though, especially on titles of threads.

This is so that when people (Biotest and potential customers) employ searches, the product threads will show up.

Smart business? I think so.

Devious or Orwellian? I don’t think so.

144

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I would like to know which mod didn’t allow my post to show up just now. [/quote]

There appears to be technical issues that prevent posts from showing up right after they’re posted instead having them show up when the thread is modified or another post is added so it might not be deliberate. (I’ve noticed if I edit a previous post in the thread, maybe a count is updated or something but the end posts show up)

On another forum where I spend a fair bit of time, any edited posts are annotated with something like ‘this post last edited by userbob at 12:34 on April 1’ and when mods edit posts they usually leave an explanation such as ‘edited to remove pg violation and general asshaterry’ because there has been such controversy from mod edits. When posts are removed, they have a place holder with a mod comment. Personally I think this help remove a lot of confusion from when posts disappear or get edited.

145

[quote]debraD wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
I would like to know which mod didn’t allow my post to show up just now.

There appears to be technical issues that prevent posts from showing up right after they’re posted instead having them show up when the thread is modified or another post is added so it might not be deliberate. (I’ve noticed if I edit a previous post in the thread, maybe a count is updated or something but the end posts show up)

On another forum where I spend a fair bit of time, any edited posts are annotated with something like ‘this post last edited by userbob at 12:34 on April 1’ and when mods edit posts they usually leave an explanation such as ‘edited to remove pg violation and general asshaterry’ because there has been such controversy from mod edits. When posts are removed, they have a place holder with a mod comment. Personally I think this help remove a lot of confusion from when posts disappear or get edited.
[/quote]

Thank you for notifying me of this Debra, I thought it was only my post that didn’t show up. Mod Laurie was nice enough to shoot me a message letting me know what happened. (Thank you Mod Laurie BTW).

146

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
tom63 wrote: Remember, this isn’t Miracle on 42 st. where Santa sent people to other stores. Biotest runs a business. Talking up the competition or running them down won’t make them happy. And can you blame them? how would you feel if you ran a store and people where talking good about the guy down the street in front of your customers?

Sure. But it goes both ways. I’m a level 4. If my old order history would have gotten merges (I was a customer since '99 but only registered in 05 or whenever), I’d be a level 5.

So when I say I don’t like such-and-such product, it’s not to blast or hate. Out of respect I don’t say much. But once I posted that a certain product made me nauseous when taken on an empty stomach. That wasn’t allowed. Nothing was allowed, so I stopped buying.

TC did great. He put in the Alpha Cell, so I returned and am a customer again.

So these things cut both ways.

I’ve long said that no one should be able to say anything negative about Biotest supplements if they haven’t been here for at least a year. This keeps out the competitions’ trolls.

But if I say that I like to cycle a certain fat burner what’s the problem? Or if I say that a certain product doesn’t work… I don’t see the big deal.

Also, and this point is missed on a lot of people: Not all customers are created equal. Some people just shop once or twice.

There are certain people who tend to evangelicize products. I’ve turned a lot of people onto this site and Biotest. I’m betting a lot of the other “old timers” have, too. You think NateDogg, e.g., doesn’t tell people about Biotest? Yeah, right. Of course he does. And if you look big or are in shape, people ask what you take. So guys like X, RainJack, Utah Lama and others are going to get asked those types of questions. As a company, you want those customers happy.

So it’s pretty unsophisticated for people to suggest that turning off level 5 people is smart for business reasons. Often, it’s not.[/quote]

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.

147

[quote]tom63 wrote:

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.
[/quote]

Here’s a guy who’s been a member since 2004, made over 2400 posts, presumably benefitted from the information we provide, and yet comes on to diss our products.

I am SO tempted to refute this, line by line. But I won’t.

However, if anyone can give him a polite but logical response, I’ll send you a free bottle of Flameout and a bottle of a yet-to-be-released product. (I’ll award them to the best answer.)

148

[quote]tom63 wrote:

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.
[/quote]

You’re completely irrelevant to the thread saying that.

I may think a product is over priced or that some other supplement isn’t going to do jack for me, but in the end, as long as my posts aren’t getting messed with, I’ll have minimal complaints. If I don’t think something works, I know my views aren’t welcome and really don’t worry about it here. There’s other places to talk about supplements, and people should realize it’s owned by Biotest or that T-Nation/Biotest are linked.

149

[quote]TC wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.

Here’s a guy who’s been a member since 2004, made over 2400 posts, presumably benefitted from the information we provide, and yet comes on to diss our products.

I am SO tempted to refute this, line by line. But I won’t.

However, if anyone can give him a polite but logical response, I’ll send you a free bottle of Flameout and a bottle of a yet-to-be-released product. (I’ll award them to the best answer.)

[/quote]

  1. I thought Flameout WAS pharmaceutical grade?
  2. Sorry, can’t make a logical comment on Muscle Milk, except that it tastes like, well, something that doesn’t taste good.
150

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.
[/quote]

Protein powder is food.
Flameout is food.
Superfood, is well food. I dare you to be able to consume 10-12 servings of fruits/veggies for cheaper than a serving of Superfood. I actually don’t get how Biotest does it.

Muscle Milk, while I used to be a firm believer in their stuff, they just seem to be marketing to the masses now (and changing their formulas), kind of reminds me of EAS.

You’re right, FOOD is important. But so are supplements. And that’s what they are supplementing your food intake. Some may be a little pricey, but you’re also paying for convenience.

When you’re eating 5,000 calories a day, it’s nice to know that you don’t have to chow down on 3 lbs of steak and 2 lbs of chicken while getting a pound of fish, every single day.

Do I think the V-Diet is a good way to start things off? Probably not, since whole food should always trump living off supplements, however, for those that have a decent diet already and looking to fill in the gaps whether it be through convenience or preference should not be looked down upon.

No one is trying to say taking Flameout equals the gains of stee-roids.

Can I get the free new to be released supplement now :slight_smile:

151

[quote]TC wrote:
You know, I read Shugart’s column, and even I was so offended I almost vowed to stop using Biotest supplements!

Seriously.

Then I had a reverse “Hair Club for Men” moment and realized that I’m not only a member, but an owner, too.

Let me say this. Tim and I strongly disagree with most of the stuff Chris said. (We discussed it yesterday). We think TMuscle and the forums are just about perfect. And if our readers/customers are turds, well, we like turds and we’re turds, too.

And I like the T Alpha forum. I was instrumental in getting it started, so I don’t like it being called a failure.

But please remember, Tim and I are the only ones around here who set policy. No one else.

But Chris is certainly entitled to his own opinions. He’s a gifted writer and he has incredible talent for learnin’ people stuff. So I do the Obama thing and I brush off my shoulder.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I always respect the way you respond in a classy and professional manner. Plus, I’m way too much of a Biotest whore to stop buying from here.

It’s just unfortunate to see articles written like the aforementioned one on this site.

152

[quote]TC wrote:

If we’re ever together in a bar somewhere and I’m very drunk and surrounded by a team of lawyers, I might tell you about some of the stuff we’ve had to deal with. And some of it’s XXX rated.

[/quote]

I’ll be in CO Springs in August. I’m buying.

153

[quote]tom63 wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
tom63 wrote: Remember, this isn’t Miracle on 42 st. where Santa sent people to other stores. Biotest runs a business. Talking up the competition or running them down won’t make them happy. And can you blame them? how would you feel if you ran a store and people where talking good about the guy down the street in front of your customers?

Sure. But it goes both ways. I’m a level 4. If my old order history would have gotten merges (I was a customer since '99 but only registered in 05 or whenever), I’d be a level 5.

So when I say I don’t like such-and-such product, it’s not to blast or hate. Out of respect I don’t say much. But once I posted that a certain product made me nauseous when taken on an empty stomach. That wasn’t allowed. Nothing was allowed, so I stopped buying.

TC did great. He put in the Alpha Cell, so I returned and am a customer again.

So these things cut both ways.

I’ve long said that no one should be able to say anything negative about Biotest supplements if they haven’t been here for at least a year. This keeps out the competitions’ trolls.

But if I say that I like to cycle a certain fat burner what’s the problem? Or if I say that a certain product doesn’t work… I don’t see the big deal.

Also, and this point is missed on a lot of people: Not all customers are created equal. Some people just shop once or twice.

There are certain people who tend to evangelicize products. I’ve turned a lot of people onto this site and Biotest. I’m betting a lot of the other “old timers” have, too. You think NateDogg, e.g., doesn’t tell people about Biotest? Yeah, right. Of course he does. And if you look big or are in shape, people ask what you take. So guys like X, RainJack, Utah Lama and others are going to get asked those types of questions. As a company, you want those customers happy.

So it’s pretty unsophisticated for people to suggest that turning off level 5 people is smart for business reasons. Often, it’s not.

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.
[/quote]

  1. Supplements are not a replacement for food. They are supplemental to food, especially for people who are trying to overcome barriers that would otherwise be too large on a normal diet.

  2. Actually, I find the supplements I buy online here as well priced if not even more inexpensive than the stuff I would buy in chain nutrition stores, for example – not to mention they seem to work much better. Also, not all fishoils are made the same…

  3. Surge for my $$$ is the best product I have ever found – that and Androsol…those were the days.

Can I have some free stuff now, TC?

I am such a whore.

154

[quote]pushmepullme wrote:
TC wrote:

If we’re ever together in a bar somewhere and I’m very drunk and surrounded by a team of lawyers, I might tell you about some of the stuff we’ve had to deal with. And some of it’s XXX rated.

I’ll be in CO Springs in August. I’m buying.[/quote]

Ha!

I want Scotch. And I mean the good stuff.

156

[quote]tom63 wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
tom63 wrote: Remember, this isn’t Miracle on 42 st. where Santa sent people to other stores. Biotest runs a business. Talking up the competition or running them down won’t make them happy. And can you blame them? how would you feel if you ran a store and people where talking good about the guy down the street in front of your customers?

Sure. But it goes both ways. I’m a level 4. If my old order history would have gotten merges (I was a customer since '99 but only registered in 05 or whenever), I’d be a level 5.

So when I say I don’t like such-and-such product, it’s not to blast or hate. Out of respect I don’t say much. But once I posted that a certain product made me nauseous when taken on an empty stomach. That wasn’t allowed. Nothing was allowed, so I stopped buying.

TC did great. He put in the Alpha Cell, so I returned and am a customer again.

So these things cut both ways.

I’ve long said that no one should be able to say anything negative about Biotest supplements if they haven’t been here for at least a year. This keeps out the competitions’ trolls.

But if I say that I like to cycle a certain fat burner what’s the problem? Or if I say that a certain product doesn’t work… I don’t see the big deal.

Also, and this point is missed on a lot of people: Not all customers are created equal. Some people just shop once or twice.

There are certain people who tend to evangelicize products. I’ve turned a lot of people onto this site and Biotest. I’m betting a lot of the other “old timers” have, too. You think NateDogg, e.g., doesn’t tell people about Biotest? Yeah, right. Of course he does. And if you look big or are in shape, people ask what you take. So guys like X, RainJack, Utah Lama and others are going to get asked those types of questions. As a company, you want those customers happy.

So it’s pretty unsophisticated for people to suggest that turning off level 5 people is smart for business reasons. Often, it’s not.

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.
[/quote]

As to Biotest prouds being worth it, I guess that’s your issue. And hey, if your supps work for you, great. Although supplements do make it much easier to get in the protein you need. A shake’s cheaper than a steak. And the steroid argument is silly at best, steroids aren’t quite legal and even if they were not everyone would be willing to take them. Biotest also never claimed their supps would beat steroids.

Eat food AND use supps when necessary,it works and it’s smarter.

157

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
chimera182 wrote:

I’m not trying to argue with you, but isn’t trying to avoid getting bashed by other companies reasonable?

Not sure if my last post went through (would be ironic if it didn’t).

No, it is not reasonable because, given the generally positive feedback over the entire Biotest line, you can think of this site as an ecosystem where disturbances would normalize over time; meaning, one single bad apple giving a shitty review of a product- if they are truly a troll - should be outted for the most part by the long time members or people with good experiences with a product. So, that is not something necessitating moderation, as long as customers are kept happy. Their loyalty will do most of the necessary “policing.”

Besides, there is a HUGE difference between “Guys, this product did not do much for me…here were my results” and “guys, don’t buy this product. it is overpriced. Go to xyz.com and get a cheaper equivalent.”

I think the former case (which I consider fully legitimate) has been moderated, usually to the point of deleting the post entirely. It’s definitely happened to me.

And TC,

I know some former posters have been mentioned as no longer coming here or purchasing Biotest stuff. I can assure you the 6-7 I mentioned are NOT any of the already mentioned posters.

But it does suck that someone like NateDogg was supposedly banned. Someone who has spent thousands on Biotest. Real shame and truly crappy oversight from a business perspective. Just seems like Biotest has SO much faith in attracting the V-Diet type crowd (mass appeal) and in selling more and more expensive supplements that they don’t “need to care” about retaining long time customers.

If I’m wrong, I want to hear it and I want an example as to why.[/quote]

I can see where you’d be pissed at some posts being modded. I honestly don’t know how you could be sure what to mod though, should it be done by join date, level, post count or content? I’m not saying it’s okay, but I can see where mistakes could be made.

158

Yet-to-be-released… sigh

159

[quote]TC wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.

Here’s a guy who’s been a member since 2004, made over 2400 posts, presumably benefitted from the information we provide, and yet comes on to diss our products.

I am SO tempted to refute this, line by line. But I won’t.

However, if anyone can give him a polite but logical response, I’ll send you a free bottle of Flameout and a bottle of a yet-to-be-released product. (I’ll award them to the best answer.)
[/quote]

Food helps and no informed lifter will deny it (lol) but therein lies the concept of “supplementation”. In order to truly maximize your progress you will need to “tweak” your diet to conform to your situation best. Supplements allow a more accurate adjustment and sometimes better absorption of key elements (Protein the most basic). Furthermore, many substances like Amino acids that are key for protein synthesis do not occur within food and need to be supplemented. You also have other stuff like HOT-ROX Extreme, Rez-V, Z-12 that are incredibly useful to enhance fat loss, fight catabolism and promote a better recovery. This stuff you just can’t eat.

Re: Fish Oil. There is officially no such thing as pharmaceutical grade fish oil mainly because the USP (United States Pharmacopeia) is yet to have specific regulations on the purity of fish oil. OK.

You mention Muscle Milk or other “protein”. Even if you’ve been posting since 2004 it seems as though you’re largely clueless on the existence of different types that will effectively have alternate benefits. For instance, whey protein contains high levels of all the essential amino acids not produced by the human body, and is absorbed by the body very quickly. Casein protein (or Milk protein) is the richest in glutamine, an amino acid that aids in recovery, and has casomorphin which helps the body to absorb the amino acids over a long time. Soy protein contains all essential amino acids, and is an alternative protein for vegetarians. Soybeans also contain isoflavones, a type of phytoestrogen, which have a weak estrogenic activity. Egg white protein is a lactose- and dairy-free protein

An advanced lifter will use this to his advantage by combining the right ones at the right time to enhance his progress. Biotest (amongst other firms) provide different products to cater for this (Grow!, Metabolic Drive, Surge Recovery etc).

As for supplementation being less effective than steroids that’s a silly comment. Why? Because the two go hand-in-hand. In reality, steroid use is best used when your diet is already outstanding and you have perhaps reached your genetic peak. I’m not knowledgeable on the topic (being natural) but from what I gather any real benefit gained from performing a cycle is directly proportional to not only your caloric intake (eat loads) but higher than average protein in take. (Hence the importance of protein shakes.) Please add to this someone?

Yes, I’m a level 0 but that is because I by my Biotest products from 2nd Party retailers (shipping was too expensive as a student). Even if I may not respond as well as others with some of the products I am very pleased with the quality and it shows with my progress.

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[quote]TC wrote:
We set it up so most of the products spellings are auto-corrected.

The mods DO have instructions to correct spellings on products, though, especially on titles of threads.

This is so that when people (Biotest and potential customers) employ searches, the product threads will show up.

Smart business? I think so.

Devious or Orwellian? I don’t think so.
[/quote]

First, I just wanted to say it’s quite cool that you’re going through this thread and responding TC - it certainly shows that you care about this business more than the average Joe.

I do have to inquire, however, why this isn’t mentioned in the ToS box below what I’m writing, as well as other changes like altering thread titles to be more eye-catching. I’ve had some posts censored for disagreeing with articles (and some not censored of course), and it was annoying, but the mods to their service let me know why. If this is going to happen, that is your prerogative after all, but it seems that posters should be notified if their post can/will be changed in such ways.

Have a good one,

Dan

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[quote]TC wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Personally, I don’t buy Biotest products. I don’t think they’re worth it. I take pharmaceutical grade fish oil and vitamins from my office and buy some Muscle Milk or other protein. and I eat food. Basically after that, supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it.

EAT FOOD, it works. And it’s cheaper.

Here’s a guy who’s been a member since 2004, made over 2400 posts, presumably benefitted from the information we provide, and yet comes on to diss our products.

I am SO tempted to refute this, line by line. But I won’t.

However, if anyone can give him a polite but logical response, I’ll send you a free bottle of Flameout and a bottle of a yet-to-be-released product. (I’ll award them to the best answer.)

[/quote]

From my perspective, if someone doesn’t use a product on this site they shouldn’t go out of there way to tell people that, unless directly asked. And to say they’re not worth it, in my eyes is a diss. You went against everything Biotest stands for, they pride themselves on having the highest quality products and to top that you name a product of a competitor, which eludes us to believe you find the product you use as superior.

And when you say “supplements are more expensive and work less well than steroids and people keep falling for it” you insinuate that people who buy supplements, in this case Biotest supplements, are idiots. Did you ever think of the millions of reasons why people would rather take LEGAL supplements, instead of taking ILLEGAL steroids.

Further more, I think it can be said that people in the top levels of every sport, use supplements and if its good enough for the best in the world then who are you to say otherwise.