Long Legs and Leaning Forward on Squats

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]Dbolocaust wrote:
mark bell agrees with him. hes trained stan efferding,which raw world record holders have you or elitefts trained?[/quote]

Was this for me? if so here’s your answer…

http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=189852&tid=124

So you then go to attack me on how many folk I have personally trained? IS this correct? That’s a classy move from behind that keyboard. lol

Like I said, when looking for knowledge on an activity I’m going with well established lifters from a reputable source such as EFS over some random internet guy who has yet to offer anything other than "I hated it when I watch it a year ago and I have no experience other than myself and squatting olympic style… ( no offense Matt)

See the difference is I offered advice from a reputable source and not of my own opinion. Take it or leave it. You will not hurt my feelings and I will not get trolled. [/quote]

Well basically, and i actually don’t care… if you want to find out abot me, google mathew bertrand T-Nation… but there’s nothing wrong with the guy except he’s tight… Wenning goes through a million things, and it’s literally like hearing all about how to change the oil, put air in the tires and all that, but there’s no info on actually squatting.

Sitting on a box doesn’t teach you to squat, the hole is the most technical part of the whole lift and you want to stop the rebound? yeah, it’s good for strngth no doubt, but using it to teach a skill is garbage. Plus, he never squats to fucking parallel. That’s not parallel, or below parallel or anything.

The other thing, is he keeps talking about hamstring strength being the reason the pelvis is rounding, I believe… I don’t care to waste an hour watching a series of videos, that can’t accurately diagnose tight hamstrings as the reason for pelvic rounding. I mean, on the last video the guys doing glute hams, and his hamstrings literally cramp… Wenning decides they’re weak… and never decides they’re just spastic.

And this is a guy that alread knew how to squat, he squats 405 or more, if you put a beginner on that box you’ve got a different story. I’ve tried unsuccessfully to do this for a while before i found a better way.

It’s a garbage video, and if you’re not smart enough to get that, and want to slap a few websites around from behind that keyboard to say you know what you’re doing enjoy. I’m a national powerlifting champ, a coach, personal trainer and a T-Nation author… my next article is how to actually learn how to squat without a box or any of that crap.

Literally, you could have had this guy do a solid dynamic warm up, focused hip and hamstring and calf stretching, put his heels on plates, had him practice some wall squats, do a few front squats and his squat would be great, off the box his ass shoots up into the air everytime, and he’s practicing a crappy squat. Congrats… brilliance in that vid.

42

FORM CHECK

Hey man, squats look great. Great job, you keep a nice arched back past parallel, and that’s a hallmark sign of a good squatter.

If you’d like the squat dissected, then I’d be glad to, take my advice for what it is, you’ll always be the one who knows best.

First, after your walkout, you stick your butt out and kinda start getting ready to squat… That’s not that bad a thing, but now that you roughly know what’s up, it’s time to decide if you want to squat, or if you want to LOOK GOOD. Trust me, make them look good, and everything else will come.

Your 2nd and 3rd reps start well, so just make sure to start them all like that.

The other thing I noticed right away was your bar placement. You’ve got some really long legs, and you’re going low bar. Remember, the bar has to stay in line with the middle of your foot, so if the bar is further down your back, thats more of you that has to go in front of that line, hence being way bent forward. I’d switch to a moderate bar, or better yet high bar right away.

The rest of your squat from the side looks great, you break at the hip and knees simultaneously which is ideal, and you don’t try to sit too far back into your squat which will just kill your form right now.

Let’s talk about your foot placement, you’ve got a super wide stance, and in theory that makes sense, to take advantage of the stronger muscles of the posterior chain, but there’s problems with trying to squat wide out of a regular rack without a mono lift. Walking out heavy weights, then getting your feet out wide is dangerous in my mind, tho lots of guys make it work… the other thing, is it’s impossible to re rack the weight when you’re feet are out super wide, especially after a big set. Another reason is, even though you have extremely good flexibility when you get up to 405 you’re going to be quite a bit tighter, and you’re going to get a groin strain without squat briefs. Also, when going beloe parallel, the quads are the primary movers, and when you’re out wide like that, they’re not being used as well, so you’re relying on your glute strength to get you out of the hole, and below parallel, it’s not as strong a mover as above parallel… so you’re going to miss a lot of squats in the hole.

What I would highly advise, is to move your stance in to just outside shoulder width, put 25’s under your heels and learn to squat that way with a regular bar or high placement.

You’re going to develop all of your leg muscles, not just your posterior chain, and you’re going to look like you’re squatting, and if you want if you squat the right way, you can transition into weightlifting, but if you squat wide you’ll have to learn to squat all over again.

Instead, if you’re going to squat wide, do a box squat at parallel, and do 5 sets of 10 after front or back squats.

Speaking of front squats, you need to learn how to do them asap, I think I said it earlier, but that’s going to build your form more than anything.

Watch this video, and try to emulate the form, look at how long his legs are, just like yours. Notice how far his knees push out on his descent, that helps to stay upright, then they come in to activate the glutes. It’s one of the nicest squats I’ve ever seen, regardless that he’s wearing knee wraps. You can squat wide and use more weight, or you can squat the original way to squat and grow the entire leg, as well as have people tell you nice squat instead of ask what exercise you’re doing.

This is 800+ at 230 lbs, you can squat a lot olympic style.

43

Yo Matt, My last comment was for that Dbol guy…

I have no issue with anything you’ve said, I had asked what you had that was better than that particular video I linked and you hadn’t said anything yet. I was waiting on your take on it since you said you were putting thoughts together. I will admit that I am not familiar with your work and I never questioned such things. I look to any sound advice while on these message boards as I seek to better myself through any reasonable means. I never ask silly shit such as what do ou squat or who have you trained like the afore mentioned person.

44

[quote]Dbolocaust wrote:
yep im the silly one, definitely not the guy trying to get a raw guy to squat as if he was wearing gear[/quote]

Hey man, I wasted almost 2 years trying to squat wide while squatting narrow and I tried and tried but i just couldn’t get it to work, I taught it to other lifters and they couldn’t get it to work.

Now I do things differently and all the lifters and clients around me are having much better results.

Your mistakes are your strength if you stick with this long enough.

45

My advive Mina is to not drop as fast on the way down. Come up as fast as possible but try to control it a bit more on the way down. Also strenghten the shit out of your upper back. Rows deads and pull ups are your best friend. Keep your chest up stick your ass out. Dont worry about rushing to higher weight.

Get comfortable squatting first form is the most important increasing weight should be done in my opinion when your comfortable with a weight. For instance i squatted 2 plates for a few months until 3x7 felt comfortable then I increased the weight. Don’t rush it’s not worth hurting yourself you’ll miss out in the long run.

Mat has good advice on how to squat properly as well just follow that but be patient your young so you’ll get strong fast and recover quickly just don’t do anything to drastic to quickly.

46

[quote]Mathew Bertrand wrote:

[quote]Dbolocaust wrote:
yep im the silly one, definitely not the guy trying to get a raw guy to squat as if he was wearing gear[/quote]

Hey man, I wasted almost 2 years trying to squat wide while squatting narrow and I tried and tried but i just couldn’t get it to work, I taught it to other lifters and they couldn’t get it to work.

Now I do things differently and all the lifters and clients around me are having much better results.

Your mistakes are your strength if you stick with this long enough.[/quote]

yep im the exact same, got a nice big disc herniation from that sitback que combined with shitty mobility leading to tail tuck. it annoys the hell out of me when i see geared advice mindlessly regurgitated at new guys because i wasted so much time myself with it. at least jts are finally actually putting out quality information for a raw lifter

47

[quote]Dbolocaust wrote:

[quote]Mathew Bertrand wrote:

[quote]Dbolocaust wrote:
yep im the silly one, definitely not the guy trying to get a raw guy to squat as if he was wearing gear[/quote]

Hey man, I wasted almost 2 years trying to squat wide while squatting narrow and I tried and tried but i just couldn’t get it to work, I taught it to other lifters and they couldn’t get it to work.

Now I do things differently and all the lifters and clients around me are having much better results.

Your mistakes are your strength if you stick with this long enough.[/quote]

yep im the exact same, got a nice big disc herniation from that sitback que combined with shitty mobility leading to tail tuck. it annoys the hell out of me when i see geared advice mindlessly regurgitated at new guys because i wasted so much time myself with it. at least jts are finally actually putting out quality information for a raw lifter[/quote]

Don’t worry man, the revolution is coming.

48

[quote]Mathew Bertrand wrote:
FORM CHECK

Hey man, squats look great. Great job, you keep a nice arched back past parallel, and that’s a hallmark sign of a good squatter.

If you’d like the squat dissected, then I’d be glad to, take my advice for what it is, you’ll always be the one who knows best.

First, after your walkout, you stick your butt out and kinda start getting ready to squat… That’s not that bad a thing, but now that you roughly know what’s up, it’s time to decide if you want to squat, or if you want to LOOK GOOD. Trust me, make them look good, and everything else will come.

Your 2nd and 3rd reps start well, so just make sure to start them all like that.

The other thing I noticed right away was your bar placement. You’ve got some really long legs, and you’re going low bar. Remember, the bar has to stay in line with the middle of your foot, so if the bar is further down your back, thats more of you that has to go in front of that line, hence being way bent forward. I’d switch to a moderate bar, or better yet high bar right away.

The rest of your squat from the side looks great, you break at the hip and knees simultaneously which is ideal, and you don’t try to sit too far back into your squat which will just kill your form right now.

Let’s talk about your foot placement, you’ve got a super wide stance, and in theory that makes sense, to take advantage of the stronger muscles of the posterior chain, but there’s problems with trying to squat wide out of a regular rack without a mono lift. Walking out heavy weights, then getting your feet out wide is dangerous in my mind, tho lots of guys make it work… the other thing, is it’s impossible to re rack the weight when you’re feet are out super wide, especially after a big set. Another reason is, even though you have extremely good flexibility when you get up to 405 you’re going to be quite a bit tighter, and you’re going to get a groin strain without squat briefs. Also, when going beloe parallel, the quads are the primary movers, and when you’re out wide like that, they’re not being used as well, so you’re relying on your glute strength to get you out of the hole, and below parallel, it’s not as strong a mover as above parallel… so you’re going to miss a lot of squats in the hole.

What I would highly advise, is to move your stance in to just outside shoulder width, put 25’s under your heels and learn to squat that way with a regular bar or high placement.

You’re going to develop all of your leg muscles, not just your posterior chain, and you’re going to look like you’re squatting, and if you want if you squat the right way, you can transition into weightlifting, but if you squat wide you’ll have to learn to squat all over again.

Instead, if you’re going to squat wide, do a box squat at parallel, and do 5 sets of 10 after front or back squats.

Speaking of front squats, you need to learn how to do them asap, I think I said it earlier, but that’s going to build your form more than anything.

Watch this video, and try to emulate the form, look at how long his legs are, just like yours. Notice how far his knees push out on his descent, that helps to stay upright, then they come in to activate the glutes. It’s one of the nicest squats I’ve ever seen, regardless that he’s wearing knee wraps. You can squat wide and use more weight, or you can squat the original way to squat and grow the entire leg, as well as have people tell you nice squat instead of ask what exercise you’re doing.

This is 800+ at 230 lbs, you can squat a lot olympic style.

[/quote]

Thanks man, that was insightful. I squat for the sake of squatting (powerlifting), not to look good. So, when I front squat, I do it to fix my low bar squat. I did a front squat workout 3 days ago just to grease the groove and get used to the form, and my quads felt great. The whole lift felt great, so I’m optimistic. I also have no problem with high bar squatting, but it would be a means to an end; improving my low bar squat. However, I turn the high bar squat into a high bar goodmorning too, so I’ll stick with fronts. You are also right about my stance, I’ll bring it in closer to shoulder width.
Plan:-Keep front squatting 3x a week (I did the low bar squats for the form check)
-Elevate heels
-Transition to front squatting once a week and power squatting once a week when I become an intermediate

P.S. I originally started squatting high bar because of an article here that said it’s the natural way to squat. My plan was to get my olympic squat as high as i can, bigger legs being a bonus, and then transition to low bar squats for the rest of my training with oly squats being an assistance lift. That didn’t workout because I couldnt progress without goodmorninging the weight, so I dropped the oly squats. So, fronts are just what i needed.

49

[quote]Jlabs wrote:
My advive Mina is to not drop as fast on the way down. Come up as fast as possible but try to control it a bit more on the way down. Also strenghten the shit out of your upper back. Rows deads and pull ups are your best friend. Keep your chest up stick your ass out. Dont worry about rushing to higher weight.

Get comfortable squatting first form is the most important increasing weight should be done in my opinion when your comfortable with a weight. For instance i squatted 2 plates for a few months until 3x7 felt comfortable then I increased the weight. Don’t rush it’s not worth hurting yourself you’ll miss out in the long run.

Mat has good advice on how to squat properly as well just follow that but be patient your young so you’ll get strong fast and recover quickly just don’t do anything to drastic to quickly. [/quote]

I already do pull ups, rows and deadlifts, so I’m on the right track. Front squats also work the back isometrically, so thats a plus too. Thanks for the advice :slight_smile:

50

[quote]Mina293 wrote:

[quote]Mathew Bertrand wrote:
FORM CHECK

Hey man, squats look great. Great job, you keep a nice arched back past parallel, and that’s a hallmark sign of a good squatter.

If you’d like the squat dissected, then I’d be glad to, take my advice for what it is, you’ll always be the one who knows best.

First, after your walkout, you stick your butt out and kinda start getting ready to squat… That’s not that bad a thing, but now that you roughly know what’s up, it’s time to decide if you want to squat, or if you want to LOOK GOOD. Trust me, make them look good, and everything else will come.

Your 2nd and 3rd reps start well, so just make sure to start them all like that.

The other thing I noticed right away was your bar placement. You’ve got some really long legs, and you’re going low bar. Remember, the bar has to stay in line with the middle of your foot, so if the bar is further down your back, thats more of you that has to go in front of that line, hence being way bent forward. I’d switch to a moderate bar, or better yet high bar right away.

The rest of your squat from the side looks great, you break at the hip and knees simultaneously which is ideal, and you don’t try to sit too far back into your squat which will just kill your form right now.

Let’s talk about your foot placement, you’ve got a super wide stance, and in theory that makes sense, to take advantage of the stronger muscles of the posterior chain, but there’s problems with trying to squat wide out of a regular rack without a mono lift. Walking out heavy weights, then getting your feet out wide is dangerous in my mind, tho lots of guys make it work… the other thing, is it’s impossible to re rack the weight when you’re feet are out super wide, especially after a big set. Another reason is, even though you have extremely good flexibility when you get up to 405 you’re going to be quite a bit tighter, and you’re going to get a groin strain without squat briefs. Also, when going beloe parallel, the quads are the primary movers, and when you’re out wide like that, they’re not being used as well, so you’re relying on your glute strength to get you out of the hole, and below parallel, it’s not as strong a mover as above parallel… so you’re going to miss a lot of squats in the hole.

What I would highly advise, is to move your stance in to just outside shoulder width, put 25’s under your heels and learn to squat that way with a regular bar or high placement.

You’re going to develop all of your leg muscles, not just your posterior chain, and you’re going to look like you’re squatting, and if you want if you squat the right way, you can transition into weightlifting, but if you squat wide you’ll have to learn to squat all over again.

Instead, if you’re going to squat wide, do a box squat at parallel, and do 5 sets of 10 after front or back squats.

Speaking of front squats, you need to learn how to do them asap, I think I said it earlier, but that’s going to build your form more than anything.

Watch this video, and try to emulate the form, look at how long his legs are, just like yours. Notice how far his knees push out on his descent, that helps to stay upright, then they come in to activate the glutes. It’s one of the nicest squats I’ve ever seen, regardless that he’s wearing knee wraps. You can squat wide and use more weight, or you can squat the original way to squat and grow the entire leg, as well as have people tell you nice squat instead of ask what exercise you’re doing.

This is 800+ at 230 lbs, you can squat a lot olympic style.

[/quote]

Thanks man, that was insightful. I squat for the sake of squatting (powerlifting), not to look good. So, when I front squat, I do it to fix my low bar squat. I did a front squat workout 3 days ago just to grease the groove and get used to the form, and my quads felt great. The whole lift felt great, so I’m optimistic. I also have no problem with high bar squatting, but it would be a means to an end; improving my low bar squat. However, I turn the high bar squat into a high bar goodmorning too, so I’ll stick with fronts. You are also right about my stance, I’ll bring it in closer to shoulder width.
Plan:-Keep front squatting 3x a week (I did the low bar squats for the form check)
-Elevate heels
-Transition to front squatting once a week and power squatting once a week when I become an intermediate

P.S. I originally started squatting high bar because of an article here that said it’s the natural way to squat. My plan was to get my olympic squat as high as i can, bigger legs being a bonus, and then transition to low bar squats for the rest of my training with oly squats being an assistance lift. That didn’t workout because I couldnt progress without goodmorninging the weight, so I dropped the oly squats. So, fronts are just what i needed.[/quote]

Hey Bud, I gather you want to hit the most weight on your squats, so low bar is generally the way to go, but that’s to hit a 405 squat and you’re still below 225 I believe. I say work high bar until at least 315, then switch to low bar if you want.

Also, the front squats build up the quads, so you don’t rely on your posterior chain to get the weight up… when your quads are weak, you tip forward because your ass tries to take over… so ti’s always good to bring up the quads.

Keep at it bud

51

I can hit 225 for a single

52

[quote]Mina293 wrote:
I can hit 225 for a single[/quote]

solid man, never meant to insult or anything, just trying to say to work at what you’re not good at, and sticking with low bar squatting is more of a peaking thing, and i find regular to high bar squatting is more of an overall mass builder, switching to low bar around 405 when you want to start specializing in powerlifting is one thing, but saying all you care about is moving a lot of weight early on will only hold you back.

I advise all young lifters starting out, and I feel anyone under a 405 squat is still starting out, should use a regular bar squat and then switch to low bar when it’s time to try for max singles. Before then, regular bar will develop the whole leg, as well as the entire body.

53

[quote]Mathew Bertrand wrote:
Watch this video, and try to emulate the form, look at how long his legs are, just like yours. Notice how far his knees push out on his descent, that helps to stay upright, then they come in to activate the glutes. It’s one of the nicest squats I’ve ever seen, regardless that he’s wearing knee wraps. You can squat wide and use more weight, or you can squat the original way to squat and grow the entire leg, as well as have people tell you nice squat instead of ask what exercise you’re doing.

This is 800+ at 230 lbs, you can squat a lot olympic style.

[/quote]

This is where I think some of the disagreement comes from when it comes to advice on technique: its hard to interpret things on the internet. I read this when I was at work, so the video wasn’t popping up, and the mental image I got was definitely not Konstantin Pozdeev. I’d never think to describe him as an Olympic-style squatter, but his squat is pretty much technically perfect.

He sits back just a bit, enough so that his hips are taking the force of the rebound at the bottom instead of his knees, but not enough to put his quads in a bad position in the hole. He’s much narrower than your typical American squat stance, but probably still wider than your traditional Olympic stance; he probably couldn’t get a whole lot more depth than that, definitely not ass to grass, but he doesn’t need to. He’s just wide enough to get his hips to stretch in the hole. I’m definitely on board with getting people to squat like Pozdeev.