[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.
[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:
Fuck so what if these countries were invaded… 9/11 and various other attacks happened well before these wars were started. Don’t remember the bible teaching to kill non believers ! [/quote]
Well that’s not true, 9/11 didn’t come out of nowhere. The US had been meddling with affairs in the middle east for a couple of decades before 9/11.
I’m not trying to excuse them, but it’s wrong to say they didn’t have any motivation beyond “they’re not Muslim, lets kill them”
Its happened again, Prison warden stabbed in attack 'inspired by Woolwich murder'
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.[/quote]
Where are getting all this information you claim as “not a conspiracy”. I have no doubt that civilians have been killed as collateral damage, that is the cost of war. But I highly doubt the civilian numbers you would use would even be justifiable by any non-radical extreme left apologist source.
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.[/quote]
Where are getting all this information you claim as “not a conspiracy”. I have no doubt that civilians have been killed as collateral damage, that is the cost of war. But I highly doubt the civilian numbers you would use would even be justifiable by any non-radical extreme left apologist source.[/quote]
The website Iraq body count have a very detailed log of all the civilian deaths in Iraq. Their data is compiled and used by reputable sources. The overwhelming majority were not killed by the US and UK military. But estimates stand at around 10,000. Which out of the total civilian body count of 110,000+ is quite a small fraction. But that’s still quite a lot of deaths.
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
[quote]2busy wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
[quote]2busy wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
[/quote]
.[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
How did the allies have any moral superiority over the Nazi regime?
[/quote]
Are you shitting me???
Did the allies round up gypsies, the disabled and 6 million Jews and systematically murder them.
When American troops walked into a liberated town in Germany would it be normal for them to rape an attractive girl that caught their fancy even if it was in the front of a restaurant full of people.
Yes or No?
[/quote]
Haha got to it before I could!
[quote]The Ox Man wrote
Well that’s not true, 9/11 didn’t come out of nowhere. The US had been meddling with affairs in the middle east for a couple of decades before 9/11.
I’m not trying to excuse them, but it’s wrong to say they didn’t have any motivation beyond “they’re not Muslim, lets kill them”[/quote]
Really… what is true is that kuat begs us to save there asses from Saddam… bin laden didn’t want infidels defending “Muslim land” no doubt USA has made mistakes with foreign affairs but casualties of war are not the same as ethnic cleansing, systematic murder, and genocide.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.[/quote]
I could be wrong and don’t want to put words in anybody’s mouth but I’m pretty sure he’s arguing that not ALL of the civilian deaths were due to Americans and we can’t really ignore the fact that local radicals kill their own people every day.
Gotta love it when people say things like " let me play devils advocate" or " I’m not agreeing with their actions but" cmon …progressive liberalism gotta love it
P.s the son of a bitch who hacked the soldier in London should be tortured and his entire family should be kicked out if the country regardless if they are innocent or not
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.[/quote]
Not at all the point I was trying to make…
But I’m not explaining myself to a clown who begins a dialogue with “You should really read the news sometime.”
Moron.
[/quote]
I’m terribly sorry, to me it appeared you were brushing off the deaths responsible by the US and UK military.
I’ve said it before in this thread and I will say it again. I am not anti war, I believe the war started for a good reason, and it needed to be done. Civilian casualties are inevitable in any conflict. I believe where possible US and UK try to limit civilian casualties, however when tensions are high, mistakes are likely to be made. I certainly wouldn’t want to be working at a checkpoint with the knowledge that the next car could be driven by a suicide bomber.
All I believe is that everyone should be aware of the scale of the death count, caused by the Allies or not. Any civilian death is worthy of our knowledge and respect and it should not to be taken lightly.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
You really should learn to read without listening to the voices in your head sometime.
Way to assume yourself into a tizzy, asshole.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to argue that the US haven’t killed thousands of civilians? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s happened.[/quote]
Where are getting all this information you claim as “not a conspiracy”. I have no doubt that civilians have been killed as collateral damage, that is the cost of war. But I highly doubt the civilian numbers you would use would even be justifiable by any non-radical extreme left apologist source.[/quote]
The website Iraq body count have a very detailed log of all the civilian deaths in Iraq. Their data is compiled and used by reputable sources. The overwhelming majority were not killed by the US and UK military. But estimates stand at around 10,000. Which out of the total civilian body count of 110,000+ is quite a small fraction. But that’s still quite a lot of deaths.
[/quote]
So the US essentially gets the blame for all civilian deaths because we started the war. How is it our fault they are killing one another. Also I would question how many of those 10,000 were true civilians and not “civilians” playing a combative role that are not nearly as innocent as they were reported to be. In a war like this, any civilian has the potential to turn into a threat very quickly.
I am not saying that mistakes haven’t been made in the Middle East at all but I am also not going to condemn our military for the loss of human life when they are put in the type of pressure cooker situation that they were dropped into.
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
So the US essentially gets the blame for all civilian deaths because we started the war. How is it our fault they are killing one another. Also I would question how many of those 10,000 were true civilians and not “civilians” playing a combative role that are not nearly as innocent as they were reported to be. In a war like this, any civilian has the potential to turn into a threat very quickly. I am not saying that mistakes haven’t been made in the Middle East at all but I am also not going to condemn our military for the loss of human life when they are put in the type of pressure cooker situation that they were dropped into.[/quote]
I personally am not blaming the US for all the deaths of the civilians. As stated I am not trying to condemn the war or the actions taken by military personnel in an incredibly stressful situation. It would be horrible to be in their shoes, and I have no doubt they are doing what they can to limit civilian casualties.
I just think it’s important that when going to war, the consequences of war should be understood and not brushed aside as well. I’m just amazed that some people seem to think the only motive terrorists have is “they’re not Muslim, we should kill them all”. When in reality it is a lot more complicated than that, and religion is just one thing being used to recruit and help justify their actions.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
So the US essentially gets the blame for all civilian deaths because we started the war. How is it our fault they are killing one another. Also I would question how many of those 10,000 were true civilians and not “civilians” playing a combative role that are not nearly as innocent as they were reported to be. In a war like this, any civilian has the potential to turn into a threat very quickly. I am not saying that mistakes haven’t been made in the Middle East at all but I am also not going to condemn our military for the loss of human life when they are put in the type of pressure cooker situation that they were dropped into.[/quote]
I personally am not blaming the US for all the deaths of the civilians. As stated I am not trying to condemn the war or the actions taken by military personnel in an incredibly stressful situation. It would be horrible to be in their shoes, and I have no doubt they are doing what they can to limit civilian casualties.
I just think it’s important that when going to war, the consequences of war should be understood and not brushed aside as well. I’m just amazed that some people seem to think the only motive terrorists have is “they’re not Muslim, we should kill them all”. When in reality it is a lot more complicated than that, and religion is just one thing being used to recruit and help justify their actions.[/quote]
While you are probably correct that at the upper levels of the most well organized terror groups and the national governments that support them there are not strictly religious motivations, the individuals who they get to carry out these schemes are. And without this vindication from a large portion of there religious brethren, I highly doubt that they would be able to be so easily swayed to blow up themselves in a building or hack someone up in the street.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
as for me not being able to tell between innocent civillian and armed militant, those numbers i quoted are… wait for it… CIVILLIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ!
[/quote]
Yes, it’s sickening how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Muslim countrymen.[/quote]
Soooooo…
The ones killed by a hero from 30000 feet on high dont bother you none?
Because I can remember that in PWI pics of dismembered Iraquis, killed by Muslims, were a-ok, dismembered Iraquis killed by DEATHFROMABOVE were not.
They kind of looked the same though.
Btw, you did look up the plan of US forces to target hospitals and sewage systems to spread disease right?
Worked well too.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
as for me not being able to tell between innocent civillian and armed militant, those numbers i quoted are… wait for it… CIVILLIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ!
[/quote]
Yes, it’s sickening how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Muslim countrymen.[/quote]
Soooooo…
The ones killed by a hero from 30000 feet on high dont bother you none?
Because I can remember that in PWI pics of dismembered Iraquis, killed by Muslims, were a-ok, dismembered Iraquis killed by DEATHFROMABOVE were not.
They kind of looked the same though.
Btw, you did look up the plan of US forces to target hospitals and sewage systems to spread disease right?
Worked well too. [/quote]
Not to mention the sanctions placed on Iraq that did nothing to hurt Saddam but killed around a million Iraqi civilians,mostly children. That is an act of war and terror too, it fits the terrorist definition of using violence to coerce a population or government into granting its demands.
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
as for me not being able to tell between innocent civillian and armed militant, those numbers i quoted are… wait for it… CIVILLIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ!
[/quote]
Yes, it’s sickening how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Muslim countrymen.[/quote]
Soooooo…
The ones killed by a hero from 30000 feet on high dont bother you none?
Because I can remember that in PWI pics of dismembered Iraquis, killed by Muslims, were a-ok, dismembered Iraquis killed by DEATHFROMABOVE were not.
They kind of looked the same though.
Btw, you did look up the plan of US forces to target hospitals and sewage systems to spread disease right?
Worked well too. [/quote]
Not to mention the sanctions placed on Iraq that did nothing to hurt Saddam but killed around a million Iraqi civilians,mostly children. That is an act of war and terror too, it fits the terrorist definition of using violence to coerce a population or government into granting its demands.[/quote]
Insofar as it is a bundle of actions that is intented to illicit a certain emotional reaction, in order to lead to certain political outcomes…
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
as for me not being able to tell between innocent civillian and armed militant, those numbers i quoted are… wait for it… CIVILLIAN DEATHS IN IRAQ!
[/quote]
Yes, it’s sickening how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Muslim countrymen.[/quote]
Soooooo…
The ones killed by a hero from 30000 feet on high dont bother you none?
Because I can remember that in PWI pics of dismembered Iraquis, killed by Muslims, were a-ok, dismembered Iraquis killed by DEATHFROMABOVE were not.
They kind of looked the same though.
Btw, you did look up the plan of US forces to target hospitals and sewage systems to spread disease right?
Worked well too. [/quote]
Ha ha ha!
I knew that would bring you out!
Ok folks; Orion is here. Time for this to move to PWI.[/quote]
Move it wherever you want, but if trained professionals rains death on unsuspecting people, that is not morally superior to bloody amateurs doing the best the can.
I know, I know, uniforms, anonymity, training, cultural programming and whatnot…
… but
They kill for what they believe is right.
US soldiers kill for a paycheck even though most of them are not even remotely convinced that what they do makes sense.
As for as moral arguments go, that is more or less meaningless, but, if you go for purity of intentions, a Muslim martyr trumps a drone pilot by a factor of 10000.