[quote]hedo wrote:
In life you should live a good life, help where you can, try and make a difference in the life of others. Be an example as best you can. If your religion helps you do that, I’m all for it.
If it wants to kill me, doesn’t think I’m a chosen one or thinks I’m not going to heaven because I ate meat on a Friday, to me that sounds like man talking, not God. But that’s what I believe.[/quote]
Well said!
One of the few occasions where I totally agree with hedo.
[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
In life you should live a good life, help where you can, try and make a difference in the life of others. Be an example as best you can. If your religion helps you do that, I’m all for it.
If it wants to kill me, doesn’t think I’m a chosen one or thinks I’m not going to heaven because I ate meat on a Friday, to me that sounds like man talking, not God. But that’s what I believe.
Well said!
One of the few occasions where I totally agree with hedo.[/quote]
Expect snow in the ME!
[quote]hedo wrote:
Expect snow in the ME! [/quote]
That’s appropriate. Iraq has been hell on Earth for the past four years.
I wonder what might have prompted the place to turn into a mess of such epic proportions?
[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Expect snow in the ME!
That’s appropriate. Iraq has been hell on Earth for the past four years.
I wonder what might have prompted the place to turn into a mess of such epic proportions?
[/quote]
A sense of humor would serve you well.
[quote]hedo wrote:
A sense of humor would serve you well. [/quote]
Oh, I do have one. It just withers on sight when the lives of innocents are on the line.
[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
A sense of humor would serve you well.
Oh, I do have one. It just withers on sight when the lives of innocents are on the line.[/quote]
Doubtful. You have yet to demonstrate one, at least on purpose.
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
Tokoya-
You an evangelical Christian?[/quote]
Agnostic. Lots of questions, and skepticism.
Lixy wrote:
“Your level of hostility against Islam is unmatched on the politics forum. Hate-filled propaganda spreading isn’t doing anyone any good. Most threads you contribute to are related to Islam, and yet, you know almost nothing about the religion or the people who practice it.”
Actually, Lixy, I am just someone that does not buy in to your spin on islamists. Not hate, just healthy skepticism. Call it a survival instinct. You are in denial about a nasty problem with folks that adhere to your faith.
[quote]John S. wrote:
First, the reason for the tree. God wanted to be worshiped by man. Forcing us to follow everything he said would just make us a robot. He gave us a way not to believe in him but in are selves(making it so we had a choice).[/quote]
But withheld the intellectuals tools required to be able to choose properly. Without knowledge of right and wrong, you can’t properly evaluate the moral consequences or disobeying. Obeying or disobeying are equivalent.
And God didn’t only supply the tree; He also supplied the Serpent, (who apparently wasn’t mentally challenged) to “tempt” Adam and Eve. The whole thing is stacked against them from the start.
God said “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” The immediate death is rather clear from the text, which is not what actually happens.
At best, God lies by omission: He doesn’t tell them that they’ll die EVENTUALLY, nor does He mention the other effects of eating of the tree.
The Serpent is a lot more honest. He explains what the tree actually provides, and also tells them they won’t die immediately. 2 for 2.
Why? Why not simply kick Adam and Eve out (as unfair as their test had been) and let other humans succeed or fail on their own?
You’re only repeating doctrine without explaining why it seems fair to you.
To visit the sins of Adam and Eve on all their descendants is an entirely arbitrary (not to mention unfair and unjust) decision from God.
So? Another arbitrary rule from God. He condemns the whole of humanity as sinners, and then forces us to worship his son as our “savior” if we wish to have that “sinner” label removed.
One fictional place for another; I guess that’s about fair.
Says you. Proof?
Good thing then that most of them don’t believe in Hell either.
Yes, it’s the second time you’ve repeated this. God still knows which choice you’ll make before you do. How is your will free, then?
Well, you’ve addressed most of them, but your arguments are mostly rote doctrine which you don’t seem to really understand or given much thought to.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
From the stand point I was saying equal footing I.E. science can’t test either, and can’t prove either. So while you added a new dynamic that is correct, so is my original premise is as well.[/quote]
So you think that removing “dynamics” helps our understanding? Why don’t we apply that technique all the time? Every time a difficult problem comes along, we should remove criteria that help us reach a proper decision, until everything can be reduced to a coin flip.
It kinda sounds stupid when phrased like that, but isn’t that what you’re proposing? Since assigning probabilities to the likelihood of each of our stances favors my side, we shall make abstraction of it?
[quote]make sense yes. The problem is I see it as more “fatal”. Meaning the worker would probably not ask for it to be reattatched, but would accept his fate and not pray for it. Similiar to when someone dies. I have never seen a group of Christians get together and pray that they be raised from the dead again.
So my best case guess it… No one has had enough faith to reattach a limb, because they have just accepted their fate. [/quote]
Well then, what are we (and by we, I mean you and other believers) waiting for?
Matthew 18:19 tells us that Jesus said “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”
So, all we need are two true believers, people who have faith, to pray together for a third.
Let’s pick a well-known amputee… Paul McCartney’s ex-wife? How about Stephen Hawking? He’s not an amputee, but he is suffering from an incurable disease.
We need two of you who know God is real and will answer your prayers if you’re really faithful to pray for Stephen Hawking to go into complete remissions and to be healed.
There’s precedent enough in the New Testament, so we know that God has once been willing to heal the sick.
Believe me, if Hawking gets better in the near future, I’ll be in church every morning on my knees, begging for forgiveness.
I’m not clearing my day-planner just yet, though.
Well, it has to be unexplainable otherwise, but it can be a very modest thing.
I’m sure God could figure out a way, if only He existed.
The problem with those miracles is that there is always an alternative natural explanation for them. Going into remission is something cancers sometimes do on their own, even in animals. Limbs growing back is not, except for certain lizards.
But this is the age of digital recording. How many people have actually met the Pope in real life? Very few out of 6 billions. But thanks to TV, just about everyone has seen him.
I’m hoping reason will win out this time.
Again with the no evidence. I’ll spare you the unlikelihood of it being true.
The equal footing being zero evidence. You see that and say “Ok, I’ll buy that.” and then claim to be reasonable. Where is the reason in that thinking?
Well, I’m pretty sure the ancient Hebrews didn’t have rocket technology (Hell, they could barely approximate pi), so it would remove some of the legs from the “it’s all man-made” argument.
And where’s that ark?
An event with no substantiating evidence constitutes sufficient evidence for you?
Ever wonder why? Why does nearly everyone have his own idea of God? Because there actually is one, or because we’re all making it up?
But it is odd that someone as particular as Jesus was barely rated a mention anywhere, while completely ordinary merchants have records of their ordinary doings.
Not to mention the evidence of tampering with these documents by the church.
Whatever. You take testimony from people for recent event they’ve actually witnessed and you get conflicting testimony. You’re claiming that adding a few generations and writing down a story that was only told to you will give you accurate information?
You’ll have to clue me in, I’ve never heard of a Q hypothesis.
And that differs from no gospel at all how?
It’s still quite a bit after the fact.
The doctrine of “divine inspiration” wasn’t invented for nothing.
[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Actually, Lixy, I am just someone that does not buy in to your spin on islamists. Not hate, just healthy skepticism. [/quote]
It should be clear to anyone that your posts are pretty much always gratuitous bashings of Islam as a religion. You almost always make generalizations about the evil character of Islam. Also, your sources are somehow always from Murdoch, Spencer, and their crew.
Call it what you will, I know hate speech when I see it.
Is that the same instinct that drives you to bash a prophet who passed out 15 centuries ago? How does that relate to your survival?
I never made two ways about it. Islam has been hijacked by a tiny minority of whackos. I do my best to counter them, often at the risk of my personal safety.
All you (and your president) do is give that minority more ammo and help them grow.
[quote]pookie wrote:
So you think that removing “dynamics” helps our understanding? Why don’t we apply that technique all the time? Every time a difficult problem comes along, we should remove criteria that help us reach a proper decision, until everything can be reduced to a coin flip.
[/quote]
No I wasn’t addressing probability when talking with orion. You brought up the topic and now we are discussing it. As I said you added the dynamic. I agree with your dynamic. So why keep hashing this out? we agree on both things.
A. science can prove or disprove.
B. probability is in the skeptics favor
no see above reply.
It also requires that the individual himself believe. Hawking would be out.
I think the Bible verse you are quoting is specifically to the Apostles. I will have to look into the context, and I will let you know.
also prayer’s that get answered have to be in accord with God’s will
My guess is you will throw out all the verses from the why does God hate amputees website. So I will save us both time, and just post a rebuttal to those verses if I have one.
[quote]
I’m not clearing my day-planner just yet, though.
I would imagine it would have to be spectacular even on the smallest scale.
Well, it has to be unexplainable otherwise, but it can be a very modest thing.[/quote]
Yet you ask that an amputee get his arm back. Wouldn’t that be unexplainable?
We would be arguing if the video is doctored at that point. Someone would still be trying to explain it away.
Shoot look at the 9-11 conspiracy theorist.
Not really. I keep trying to figure out why would the disciples follow through, and under go those things. I see the impossible nature of Christianity being able to survive with the stories it used. A crucified God is not a very impressive argument to a first century person.
some, yes, but not all. Isn’t that what you are looking for. An all doubts removed argument.
There are theories on its where abouts, but no certainities. Why is this important?
I am trusting the eye witnesses.
It crosses my mind on a daily basis.
How many surviving documents do you know of from 1st century Judea? Not many since the Romans came in and destroyed the whole place. Who would have wrote about him?
We don’t question Alexander the Great, and yet we have almost nothing recorded of him. Why can’t Jesus exist. I am not even arguing for the miraculous at this point. I am arguing only for his existance.
You should read
The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by metzger. The correctness of the NT is unparalleled for an ancient text.
You would have to understand the ability of those people to maintain oral tradition before you can doubt it.
A common hypothesis by skeptics to claim that Q was a document where all the other gospels got their source. Some attribute mark as the sole Q document. More than likely it was a sayings gospel. Jesus said…
It is made up at this point. There is indications that there were sayings written down, which could include stories.
The base of the argument is a skeptcis pov.
Well it could point there being things written down while they happened, and later compiled into the gospels we currently have.
And how far after Herod’s life did Josephus write about him, and his atrocities?
[quote]haney1 wrote:
It also requires that the individual himself believe. Hawking would be out.
I will spare you the Bible verses, unless you request it.[/quote]
Fine. Just pick a an amputeed believer.
Let’s stop splitting hairs and evading this, I’ll let you pick the recipient and the participants. I’m sure you know the verses better than I do, so I’ll trust your judgment on this.
Just let us know in advance of the expected outcome.
It doesn’t have to be that particular event. We where discussing miracles and what I’d require to accept that a miracle had occurred.
I was asking why all the “miraculous” healings that occur “all the time” according to some never involve an amputee.
That doesn’t mean it’s the only acceptable miracle for me to be convinced.
If we had multiple videos, from multiple angles, taken by multiple independent sources, it would eventually be very hard to dismiss as not genuine.
Like I said, if God was real, he should have no problem figuring it out. Omnipotence is cool that way.
I’m not talking about mental cases, I’m talking about reasonable skeptics, ie, those that are intellectually honest enough to change their minds if offered sufficient evidence.
For the same reason that Scientology has followers, or Raelians have followers. Fred Phelps has devoted followers. Thousands of religion have been created throughout mankind’s history; there’s nothing special about Paul and his invention.
The rising from the dead part is the impressive one. Anyone can die on a cross, most don’t come back to chat about it.
No, only that enough doubt be removed that believing can be argued from reason.
I’ve never seen an electron, but I believe they exist because there is a lot of evidence that they do.
It’s the only document ever that God Himself is said to have authored directly. I’d say that would make it important, no?
Who’s testimony you’re getting many times removed, after a few generations?
Why don’t you believe the testimony of prophet Muhammad when he says that the archangel Gabriel appeared to him?
The testimony is a lot more direct than anything in the NT.
And nothing impedes its crossing?
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Well, from the arguments of the Jesus mythers, (most have been gathered at the site www.jesusneverexisted.com) there is actually quite a bit of written documents from that place and time.
We’ve got a lot more on Alexander, from more varied sources, than we do on Jesus.
I don’t think the “Jesus” people mean when they use the name ever existed. There probably was someone alive at that time who later inspired the myth, but all of the miraculous is certainly invention.
Personally, I much prefer to concentrate on his moral teachings. Those I think are pretty good.
[quote]You should read
The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by metzger. The correctness of the NT is unparalleled for an ancient text.[/quote]
Assuming that the original was factual and relating events that actually happened, which it is most likely not.
If the texts of Scientology are still complete and identical in 2000 years, will that mean that L. Ron was right about Xenu?
And what evidence have we of that ability?
Is there evidence of this, or only speculation?
Herod left a paper trail. Jesus didn’t.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Fine. Just pick a an amputeed believer.
Let’s stop splitting hairs and evading this, I’ll let you pick the recipient and the participants. I’m sure you know the verses better than I do, so I’ll trust your judgment on this.
Just let us know in advance of the expected outcome.
[/quote]
If it is in God’s will it would happen would be my answer.
Anthropology
yes there is evidence that the disciples wrote saying of Jesus down, long before the formalization of the actual gospels. Most associate it with Mark, but as I stated earlier there is evidence to associate it with matthew as well.
Actually not really the overwhelming source is josephus. He could have easily been a good guy, but we will never know because Josephus painted in him that light.
Nicolaus of Damascus would have been a better source bit most of his work was destroyed. So why believe all the evil details?
[quote]etaco wrote:
pookie wrote:
where are those tablets now, anyway?
We have top men working on them now.[/quote]
I don’t know why, but LOL!
[quote]haney1 wrote:
If it is in God’s will it would happen would be my answer.[/quote]
More evasion. The verses say “ask, and it shall be given.”
What’s so difficult about praying God to heal someone? It’s a good, selfless act that would greatly benefit someone.
I think you’re trying to avoid this because you know deep down, that it won’t work. Why? Because prayer doesn’t work. Why? Because there’s no one to hear them.
Nowhere does it say that miracles are the exclusive doings of Jesus. Many miracles happen in the OT, well before Jesus was around.
Most of the saints of the various churches have “documented” cases of miracles. It’s a requirement of the Catholic faith, for example.
Jesus himself said repeatedly that God listens to and answers prayers. You know the verses, I don’t have to list them here, do I?
But that brings us back to: Why did some people get to witness actual miracles and we don’t? For them, believing must’ve been much easier than it is for us. Or me at least. Why is God unfair in His dealings with us?
Sure. But his opinion is not evidence, just opinion.
If it wasn’t that religion, it would be another one. And you’d still marvel at its resilience in surviving to this day.
The same argument can be made for Islam. Started 600 years (give or take) after Christianity, it has managed to convert 1.5 billion people in 1,400 years. Pretty resilient, I’d say.
As accurate journals of real events? No. Not any more than any other religion’s mythology.
Being that the Ark is a physical impossibility (unless it’s was a 40-day long miracle), good luck in finding it.
What was the average life expectancy then? 50 years? If most adults who witnessed Jesus were of a similar age (in their thirties), not many of them would still be around 40 years later.
At that 40 years is at the very lowest end of speculation. Most scholars date the Gospels later than that.
[quote]Because I have not been compelled by his argument for Christ’s history.
Although that doesn’t mean I don’t believe he saw a vision/something.[/quote]
If your parents had been muslims, do you think you’d be a Christian?
[quote]And you know that the gospels were not written by matthew, Mark, or John?
Men who were with Christ.[/quote]
Isn’t that what I said? The testimony of the NT is indirect. We don’t allow hearsay in our courts of law; but your religion is entirely built upon it.
I’ll try and find it for you… they reorganized the site a couple of times since I first read it (there’s a lot more stuff now, and a book too apparently.) I’ll get back to you on this.
None of which mention Jesus. Yet, many mention obscure historical figures that have long since been forgotten. Odd, no?
Again, I can’t prove a negative. I simply see no evidence that supports all the fantastic claims (miracles, resurrection, etc) made.
Bram Stoker wrote a book about Dracula the vampire. I can’t prove for certain that vampires don’t exist, but I’m pretty sure of it nonetheless. Jesus’ divinity is on equal footing, as far as I’m concerned.
You don’t think that his moral teachings are the important part of his life?
Because none of what is described in the stories has any evidence to support it. All we have is many times removed hearsay testimony written down by people we know next to nothing about and kept in custody of the church for a few thousand years.
So, while I can’t say I know, I can say I strongly suspect and don’t have much expectation of ever being proved wrong.
Yet twice you make that argument. Christianity survived despite “the stories it used” and being opposed by the Roman Government.
What is different about Christianity’s survival that doesn’t impress you when other faiths are shown to have survived similar opposition?
They dug up spoken words?
How can you testify to the efficiency of an oral tradition when, by definition, the initial story is forever lost?
Ok. I don’t know enough about that topic to discuss it properly.
[quote]Actually not really the overwhelming source is josephus. He could have easily been a good guy, but we will never know because Josephus painted in him that light.
Nicolaus of Damascus would have been a better source bit most of his work was destroyed. So why believe all the evil details?[/quote]
I don’t really care whether Herod was callous or not. The point is that his existence is not questioned because even what little evidence we have for his life is enough to convince most that he actually existed. Jesus has no such secular evidence. Almost everything offered as back up cannot be exempted from the suspicion of church tampering.
Faith, and sometimes a dramatic and personal religious experience. Not always easily explained, is it? Well, usually not. But, for the person who has experienced such a revelation, it’s real. I suppose it’s like love.
Can I truly see a man’s love for a woman? Oh sure, one could observe hugs and kisses, I suppose. But, that is what’s expected of him, and not necessarily an honest representation of his feelings for her. We simplify things for ourselves and presume that he’s in love. Until one day, we find out he’s doing the same thing with two other gals on the side. Telling each one of them that he loves them, all the while living off them.
Basically, I can’t share my faith or religious experience with any of you. Not truly. It’s not something you’ll be able to measure or quantify. But, for me it’s very real. Yet, it’s what makes these debates, especially on a forum, pointless to me.
I’m comfortable making decisions based upon these beliefs. And yes, that means even taking them into consideration when I vote. Whooboy! Now, I’m sure some of the more preachy religious folks get on the nerves of our atheists/agnostic friends. Sorry about that. I know how it feels listening to some of the more long winded atheists out there. So, I can empathize.
But, in the end it’s no big deal. As long as we can be neighbors and not resort to shooting RPG’s at each other, as I said in another thread.
And, before someone says I hate muslims because of other threads, I don’t. I recognize a very disturbing number of muslims practicing an oppressive and brutal type of Islam. To be clear, I don’t see a tiny fringe element. I see an alarming number. Of course, there are still millions upon millions of muslims that I could feel some kinship with simply out of our appreciation of faith. Sorry for the tangent there, but I wanted to head that off.
[quote]etaco wrote:
pookie wrote:
where are those tablets now, anyway?
We have top men working on them now.[/quote]
There’s nothing to work on, the tablets and the Arc of the Covenant are in Axum, Ethiopia.
http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/ethiopia/sacred_sites_ethiopia.html
[quote]kroby wrote:
etaco wrote:
pookie wrote:
where are those tablets now, anyway?
We have top men working on them now.
I don’t know why, but LOL![/quote]
Raiders of the Lost Ark
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
John S. wrote:
How about the direct quote from there holy book? I showed these vids to show two different views of the passage, I was asking how he explains this. incase you can’t read. Ill break it down for your punk ass. IT TELLS THEM ITS OK TO BEAT THERE WIVES.
From Leviticus 20 (English Standard Version)
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. If a man lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
Mind explaining to me how a religion can prescribe DEATH for things like cheating or being gay?
Or that, if you have sex with a woman and her mother, that the three of you should be BURNED ALIVE?
[/quote]
Death was the prescription to erradicate sin and to discourage people from it, in pre-atonement days sin was dealt with the death of the sinner, Jesus became the atonement for our sins by taking the punishment, so that by faith in that sacrifice we can receive cleansing for our sins and be justified.
That’s why when there was a woman found in the act of adultery and the religious hypocrates along with the mob of people were ready to stone her Jesus said: “he who is without sin can throw the first stone”, He was setting a new standard, that we were all sinners, but He was going to be taking care of that pretty soon.