Limit Strength: Its Concern for Bodybuilding

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
Lol, I’m not using 60% of my 1RM. I mentioned above I did not mean limit strength in terms of my current limit strength but a theotical “rough max” of my achievable “life” strength e.g. 400lbsish where even a few pound gains become a struggle… or whatever. Basically when you get to the “advanced” stage of strength in that lift.

I was just meaning did any guys repping 300+ on bench get there with mostly 8-12 reps
[/quote]

What is your goal? Do you want to bench 300+ pounds? If so, then doing sets of 8-12 is not the most efficient way to get there. Do you want to build as much muscle as possible? Then only doing low rep sets is not the best way to accomplish that. A new article comes out saying that the best bodybuilders are more jacked than the best strength athletes and you seem to think that being muscular and strong are mutually exclusive when they are not. Quit worrying about your “limit strength” and just lift weights. Limits are usually self imposed and are really just a point when you tell yourself that you’re not willing to put in the hard work or make the sacrifices necessary to make progress.

Goal = Bodybuilding

I’m not setting myself limits, for all I know I could be capable of a 500lb bench press despite my pathetic attempts nowadays. All I’m wondering is how those who are big (and happen to bench a lot) got there, did they see progression in the gym with higher rep ranges even when they had so much more strength to gain…

I believe it’s extremely important. To take my squats from 315 x 3, to 315 x 20+ allowed my legs to blow up pretty quick. The only way I was able to do that was by raising my 1 rep from 365 to over 5.

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
Goal = Bodybuilding

I’m not setting myself limits, for all I know I could be capable of a 500lb bench press despite my pathetic attempts nowadays. All I’m wondering is how those who are big (and happen to bench a lot) got there, did they see progression in the gym with higher rep ranges even when they had so much more strength to gain…[/quote]

What are you talking about? You can get to the point where you rep 300 by using higher rep ranges. Why would you think you cant see progression with higher rep ranges such as 8-12? Ofcourse you can see progression with that rep range, and pretty much any rep range. I honestly think it’s easier to progress with an 8-12 range.

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

What are you talking about? You can get to the point where you rep 300 by using higher rep ranges. Why would you think you cant see progression with higher rep ranges such as 8-12? Ofcourse you can see progression with that rep range, and pretty much any rep range. I honestly think it’s easier to progress with an 8-12 range. [/quote]

Absolutely. You are making this way too complicated. You don’t need to worry about hindering your muscle gain by using low reps when you’re not even benching 100kg. At your level there is no reason you can’t make damn good strength gains by using higher reps and honestly it’s probably better for you right now. When I first got into lifting I took my bench from 205 to 325 and rarely if ever went below 5 reps. I would look at those max charts and see what my projected max was and every session my goal was to break my projected max even if it was just by a pound. For instance, if I did 245x5 which is a projected max of 282 then the next session I would go for 235x7 which is a projected max of 284. Whether some people think that’s a shitty way to train or not it slapped 120 pounds onto my max in a year because it is simple and progressive.

Over-all, probably made my best gains within the 6-8 rep range

Used to laugh at all the gurus who said you needed to vary the rep ranges (as if to confuse the muscles), but in recent times I’ve found it to be quite effective. If I swap from say 10 reps to 5 reps, progress seems a lot better than sticking to the same rep range week after week.

In the past I’d swap, and think “this is the one!! This is the perfect rep range!”…then weeks later it “stopped working”.

Nowadays I vary it on a weekly basis, and no rep range is the “best”

I hit a ~300 pound max on the bench press using sets of 8. I literally did 3 sets of 8 (hard sets), training bench about once every 5 days, and opened every chest workout with that same 3x8. These sets were always to failure by the last rep; if I didn’t fail on the last set of 8, I bumped the weight up. I did this same workout every 5 days for a full year. Every few weeks I was putting another 5 pound plate on the bar and it wasn’t long before I hit 300. Eventually I dropped to sets to a 3x5, which pushed me up towards 350 pounds.

I was stuck within 10 pounds of that for a very long time. It wasn’t until I increased the reps that I was able to make progress again. My benched moved from 365 → 405 over the months by using 5/3/1 as the guideline for my first sets and using an even lighter weight than normal. Week 1 I was hitting 12-14 reps; by the 3rd week I usually would hit 8, sometimes 9. I then followed that up with a 3-5x10 with a relatively low load (like 225).

Point is yes, you can make solid progress of strength, even at relatively high levels of strength, without ever using low rep schemes. For me, higher reps was actually optimal, as evidenced by floundering around trying to increase my bench using 1-5 rep schemes for a long time. I’ve always made my fastest progress when working with sets of 8-15 reps. Also, these sets aren’t necessarily “40-60%”; I am not sure where you got that number from. For a working set I recently incline benched 295 for 8, and that was definitely more than 60% of my max.

The thing is when you ask questions like this you have to understand that everyone is different. I originally lowered my rep schemes because perhaps the most muscular person I have ever seen literally said, “If you are doing more than 6 reps on the bench, you aren’t using enough weight”. Apparently that worked great for him, not so much for me.

As far as your original question goes, how important do I think strength is for size? That again depends on your genetics and how well developed your mind muscle connection is with your target body part.

For me, spending years as a kid doing push-ups and cable flies meant when I actually got serious about lifting weights, I had a great mind-muscle connection with my chest. Pushing my bench press up to those levels built up my chest and anterior delts up a significant degree. On the other hand, my training partner pushed his bench up to about 325-335 and did not add on significant chest size; for him he gained most of the muscle in his anterior delts.

On the flip side, pushing my squat/dl strength up did not result in complete leg development… glutes and adductors definitely developed but the quads were severely lacking until I started pushing high rep sets of leg press, using some slower eccentrics, etc. Meanwhile, my same training partner has really put on some mass on his quads after increasing his squat.

Thanks a lot for the responses guys I do take every one into account and appreciate it greatly.

So to clear up:

  • My posts can be as confusing as hell- however, When I said 40-60% I was referring to me now being at around a 210lb max bench, and theorically, no matter what my genetics, what was still likely to be possible natural (NOT setting limits on myself actually the opposite, suggesting that despite my sucky benching, 400lb should be possible one day (hence I’m doing around 50%). This is mostly from discussions on these boards talking about the sort of strength levels ANYONE can reach regardless of genetics, so the 400lb figure is not used as any sort of prediction but instead, just a base line figure to refer to how goddamn weak I am currently.

  • I’ve concluded the answer is essentially: Whatever you best progress on from the 4-12 rep range. If I wanted to get theoritical I should probably conclude my “genetic” predispotion is FAR MORE LIKELY to be endurance rather then strength (my familys sporting background combined with my tiny ass wrists/hands). I don’t particularly want to ‘go there’ in fear of a shit storm but when I actually think logically this makes sense.

  • Part #2 of the answer seems to be: bare in mind that from a purely bodybuilding angle, you still have to actually go with the movements you feel are working the correct muscles. Lose any ego and focus on what will work, and eventually the size will allow for much-above-average strength… am I right?

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
Thanks a lot for the responses guys I do take every one into account and appreciate it greatly.

So to clear up:

  • My posts can be as confusing as hell- however, When I said 40-60% I was referring to me now being at around a 210lb max bench, and theorically, no matter what my genetics, what was still likely to be possible natural (NOT setting limits on myself actually the opposite, suggesting that despite my sucky benching, 400lb should be possible one day (hence I’m doing around 50%). This is mostly from discussions on these boards talking about the sort of strength levels ANYONE can reach regardless of genetics, so the 400lb figure is not used as any sort of prediction but instead, just a base line figure to refer to how goddamn weak I am currently.

  • I’ve concluded the answer is essentially: Whatever you best progress on from the 4-12 rep range. If I wanted to get theoritical I should probably conclude my “genetic” predispotion is FAR MORE LIKELY to be endurance rather then strength (my familys sporting background combined with my tiny ass wrists/hands). I don’t particularly want to ‘go there’ in fear of a shit storm but when I actually think logically this makes sense.

  • Part #2 of the answer seems to be: bare in mind that from a purely bodybuilding angle, you still have to actually go with the movements you feel are working the correct muscles. Lose any ego and focus on what will work, and eventually the size will allow for much-above-average strength… am I right?[/quote]

No you will never bench 400 pounds unless you change your attitude. Quit calling yourself goddamn weak and quit calling your attempts pathetic. Get in the gym and bust your ass and everything will take care of itself.

[quote]Mexecutioner wrote:
No you will never bench 400 pounds unless you change your attitude. Quit calling yourself goddamn weak and quit calling your attempts pathetic. Get in the gym and bust your ass and everything will take care of itself.
[/quote]

Where did I call my attempts pathetic? I am weak. I will get strong. Nothing wrong with my attitude I just overthink shit after reading FAR too much many articles on the internet. Just need a few in the the trenches guys to remind me of what’s good. I bust my ass 6/7 days a week.

  • go as heavy as you can reasonably go while still stressing the muscle(controlled negatives, no leveraging)

  • use adequate volume(6 working sets per body part at minimum)

  • be in caloric surplus with adequate protein(1-1.5g x bw in protein)

seriously, it is not more complicated than that…you follow those 3 things, and you will get bigger…trust me…

just follow those 3 principles for 4 week and see what happens…

[quote]D Public wrote:

  • go as heavy as you can reasonably go while still stressing the muscle(controlled negatives, no leveraging)

  • use adequate volume(6 working sets per body part at minimum)

  • be in caloric surplus with adequate protein(1-1.5g x bw in protein)

seriously, it is not more complicated than that…you follow those 3 things, and you will get bigger…trust me…

just follow those 3 principles for 4 week and see what happens…
[/quote]

Trust me, I am following that. I appreciate the input but I’m sorry if I’ve given up the impression I’m a total newbie to all this, whilst I’ve only been training 3 years or so I’ve put on around 60lbs while staying relatively lean and look decent for it. My original post was not so much a “help me” as hoping for a discussion on the rep ranges people have used whilst building a big bench/squat/whatever. I’ll be more concise and clear in my postings from now on.

Edit: lol, I could understand if anyone ventured to the photos section of my hub, I’ve gone from 175 > 194 or so morning weight since the last time I uploaded

thansk for clarification…

well, I definitely think the majority of your training should be in the 6-12 rep range…

just from ancedotal observation…most top natural bber lift in that rep range for the majority of their exercises…

granted, some do incoporate some heavy lower rep lifting(ie layne norton)…but the majority of his training is very much high volume…

look at how the guy in your av trains…he has some interviews/videos up in various places…

Yeah I do agree with you, I think at times my posts wander so much they take away from the original point. Yeh J-rod is definitely a source of motivation for how I try and train, in fact his use of a lot of 4-6 reps was part of the reason this interested me in the first place, his technique is impeccable for hitting the muscle though. Just wish he had more videos about, can only watch his squat/back/arm workouts so many times…

A better post would have been: Bodybuilding Strength Roundtable - To those who consider how they train completely bodybuilding, what rep range brought you the quickest progressions? (I do make it hard for myself, ha.)

[quote]D Public wrote:

  • go as heavy as you can reasonably go while still stressing the muscle(controlled negatives, no leveraging)

  • use adequate volume(6 working sets per body part at minimum)

  • be in caloric surplus with adequate protein(1-1.5g x bw in protein)

seriously, it is not more complicated than that…you follow those 3 things, and you will get bigger…trust me…

just follow those 3 principles for 4 week and see what happens…
[/quote]

Yes that easy.

It’s been said many many times that there is no magic rep range. Most of those (if not all) that have got to the level you are looking to get at have used a variety of rep ranges. From 3-5 to 6-8 to 8-12 and sometimes even 20 rep sets! All of these rep ranges are responsible for the progress. Whats so confusing about that?

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
Yeah I do agree with you, I think at times my posts wander so much they take away from the original point. Yeh J-rod is definitely a source of motivation for how I try and train, in fact his use of a lot of 4-6 reps was part of the reason this interested me in the first place, his technique is impeccable for hitting the muscle though. Just wish he had more videos about, can only watch his squat/back/arm workouts so many times…

A better post would have been: Bodybuilding Strength Roundtable - To those who consider how they train completely bodybuilding, what rep range brought you the quickest progressions? (I do make it hard for myself, ha.)

[/quote]

The rep range where you work the hardest will bring you the quickest progression

[quote]Mexecutioner wrote:
The rep range where you work the hardest will bring you the quickest progression[/quote]

Now that’s something I definitely believe. Same with exercise selections assuming you feel them all in the target muscle.

For size, i think they are all good as long as you keep track of total reps.

8x4= 32 reps
10x3= 30 reps
5x5= 25

Using this guidline…i changed all my 3x8 sets to 4x8 simply because around 30 reps is the “sweet spot” for me.

[quote]K-Man32 wrote:
For size, i think they are all good as long as you keep track of total reps.

8x4= 32 reps
10x3= 30 reps
5x5= 25

Using this guidline…i changed all my 3x8 sets to 4x8 simply because around 30 reps is the “sweet spot” for me.[/quote]

So is perhaps total time under tension rather then continuous time under tension that matters? In other words is time under tension just the same as total reps? I’d still not be sure or far more bodybuilders would probably train 10 sets 3 reps bench press, perhaps…

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:

[quote]K-Man32 wrote:
For size, i think they are all good as long as you keep track of total reps.

8x4= 32 reps
10x3= 30 reps
5x5= 25

Using this guidline…i changed all my 3x8 sets to 4x8 simply because around 30 reps is the “sweet spot” for me.[/quote]

So is perhaps total time under tension rather then continuous time under tension that matters? In other words is time under tension just the same as total reps? I’d still not be sure or far more bodybuilders would probably train 10 sets 3 reps bench press, perhaps…[/quote]
10x3 would make you stronger on the higher rep ranges, it has carryover. It’s not about what others prefer anyways, it’s about knowing your own body.

I switch rep ranges for my main lifts pretty regularly so i notice when things work.

Truth is, your gonna have to do low rep work if you wanna get strong fast in the higher rep ranges. Which = more muscle.