Liberal Joke

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.
[/quote]

No one has made the charge that 90% of the poor don’t work hard.m I don;t think that they have worked as hard as many of the rich have - especially the new rich that earned their success by themselves. But there is a definite anti-wealth vibe going on in here.

I would venture to say that people who have earned their wealth have worked harder or, at the very least, smarter than the poor folk have.

I’ve been both places - and I’d rather have you think of me as a greedy rich SOB than to be a poor person just scraping by any day.

62

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.

[/quote]

A 90/10 split like that is nice for the sake of simplicity, but you are leaving out the ones that most people realy have a gripe with- the “I get paid by uncle sam for doing nothing!” class. You know, the ones that while away the days comming up with irrefutable disabilities, various syndromes, and occasionaly popping out another kid to give themselves a raise.

63

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Re-read what you wrote. You said nothing about proving that rich people work hard. [/quote]

Your attempts to dodge the question are getting pretty silly, RJ.

In case you’re not able to read up two postings, here it goes again:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.[/quote]

TO WHICH I ANSWERED:

[quote]hspder wrote:
I second vroom on this one: I want proof.[/quote]

So, let me explain like you were a 5 year old: First of all, I want proof that most (i.e., over 50% of people) who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

“Anecdotal evidence” doesn’t count. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence of the contrary, so we could be exchanging anecdotes till the cows came home. I want PROOF: a scientific, credible study, with proven methodology, that proves your (and Zeb’s) claims.

Do you need a drawing?

Until you provide me with that, your claims are as substantiated as OJ’s or Robert Blake’s innocence.

64

PS: For those who are not following, I’m using sarcasm to imply that in the RWU (Right Wing Universe) one’s wealth has a strong positive correlation with the presumption of innocence.

Whereas we, the left-wing, look at over 2,000 years of recorded history and see that if past behavior is indeed the best predictor of future behavior, if one is to be biased, the exact opposite is quite obviously more realistic.

65

PPS:

Sorry, it’s just after Christmas, even though I am not a Christian, most of the audience believes they are, and I can’t resist the obligatory quote, the one that has made the expression “Christian Right” the biggest oxymoron ever conceived…

As a certain hippie Jew that was born around 2,000 years ago (give or take a decade or so) said (as quoted in Matthew 19:24):

“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

66

[quote]hspder wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Re-read what you wrote. You said nothing about proving that rich people work hard.

Your attempts to dodge the question are getting pretty silly, RJ.

In case you’re not able to read up two postings, here it goes again:

ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

TO WHICH I ANSWERED:

hspder wrote:
I second vroom on this one: I want proof.

So, let me explain like you were a 5 year old: First of all, I want proof that most (i.e., over 50% of people) who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

“Anecdotal evidence” doesn’t count. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence of the contrary, so we could be exchanging anecdotes till the cows came home. I want PROOF: a scientific, credible study, with proven methodology, that proves your (and Zeb’s) claims.

Do you need a drawing?

Until you provide me with that, your claims are as substantiated as OJ’s or Robert Blake’s innocence.
[/quote]

Nice job. Care to quantify “very”? Care to quantify “serious”? Care to quantify “hard”?

You are being an ass and you know it. Clarify what it is you want.

How many times do I have to repeat that for you?

So void of the proof you are demanding with criteria you have yet to quantify - you are saying that more than half of the families that make 1 dollar over the mean family income for the U.S. are a bunch of lazy spoiled bastards?

Please keep believing that - and please keep supporting left wingers that share your same villianistic view of the backbone of this country. Is it fair to say that you are one of those lazy mnotherfuckers as well? I think you have made some serious money on your lifetime as an eggheaded elitist “educator”. Wait - check that - I answered my own question. You are a lazy rich mother fucker.

67

[quote]hspder wrote:
PS: For those who are not following, I’m using sarcasm to imply that in the RWU (Right Wing Universe) one’s wealth has a strong positive correlation with the presumption of innocence.

Whereas we, the left-wing, look at over 2,000 years of recorded history and see that if past behavior is indeed the best predictor of future behavior, if one is to be biased, the exact opposite is quite obviously more realistic.
[/quote]
The galantry of that last statement just brings a tear to my eye.
Do you have any proof to substantiate it, or are you simply applying the way you feel to an entire political party?

68

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.

A 90/10 split like that is nice for the sake of simplicity [/quote]

It is true, that’s what it is.

I think you vastly overestimate the number of people who “pop out another kid to give themselves a raise”. You make it seem like the poor/working class are just looking for new ways to come up with in order to fuck over the government…when you have no proof of this.

However, there have been plenty of indictments in the last year (both in my state and nationally) when many government officials seem to be trying to do just that- scam the government and system for money. So, even if we were to say that most poor people attempt to fuck the system out of money (which they don’t), then what makes the poor so much worse than the rich senators who do the same?

69

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.

A 90/10 split like that is nice for the sake of simplicity

It is true, that’s what it is.

but you are leaving out the ones that most people realy have a gripe with- the “I get paid by uncle sam for doing nothing!” class. You know, the ones that while away the days comming up with irrefutable disabilities, various syndromes, and occasionaly popping out another kid to give themselves a raise.

I think you vastly overestimate the number of people who “pop out another kid to give themselves a raise”. You make it seem like the poor/working class are just looking for new ways to come up with in order to fuck over the government…when you have no proof of this.

However, there have been plenty of indictments in the last year (both in my state and nationally) when many government officials seem to be trying to do just that- scam the government and system for money. So, even if we were to say that most poor people attempt to fuck the system out of money (which they don’t), then what makes the poor so much worse than the rich senators who do the same? [/quote]

For one thing, I never stated explicitly or implicitly that any working class regardless of wealth have tried to rip off anybody. Hell, I’m working class, as is the rest of my family. Through working harder and smarter, und utilizing different strategies than just working slightly harder than the next guy, I do plan on becoming wealthy.
Second- If or when found guilty, the politicians that have perpetrated any crimes should be sentenced severely. They take crime to a whole other level, and as demonstrated by you make(for some people) an entire party look bad. But lets not be too short with that hindsight. If you want to look at political crooks- lets look at all of them. In fact, if you want to get up to the minute- Check out former Mayor Tom Murphy(Pittsburgh) and the investigation underway on the Allegheny County Sherrifs department. All democrats, all as scummy as scum can be.
Lastly, the rationalization that because someone else has done something wrong means that it is O.K. for others to do is the root of criminal thought. The “I’m gonna get mine” attitude that basicly makes everything O.K. is bullshit, and you know bette than that.
At least I hope so.

70

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
For one thing, I never stated explicitly or implicitly that any working class regardless of wealth have tried to rip off anybody. Hell, I’m working class, as is the rest of my family. Through working harder and smarter, und utilizing different strategies than just working slightly harder than the next guy, I do plan on becoming wealthy.[/quote]

Who doesn’t walk around claiming that they would like to eventually be wealthy? It doesn’t mean it will happen for you just like it doesn’t happen for millions of other hard working “working class” people. What I find amazingly irritating from many “Conservatives” today is this holier than thou attitude as if their shit doesn’t stink and everyone else who either isn’t wealthy or in the public eye or both (as long as they are also not Conservatives) falls into the “lazy, steal from the government” category. It is truly a dumb way to view the world especially when coming from people who are NOT rich. You are basically a wealthy wannabe who screams your support of corporate success when the truth is, you wouldn’t be accepted at the table of most of the same people you are cheering on. Why do you think you are better, harder working, or smarter than “poor people”? Please don’t say you don’t think this because that is exactly what has been implied by your posts.

[quote]
Second- If or when found guilty, the politicians that have perpetrated any crimes should be sentenced severely. They take crime to a whole other level, and as demonstrated by you make(for some people) an entire party look bad.[/quote]

I don’t understand. Every time I read a new post whether in this thread or others, it is being claimed that we should look at fringe liberals and their crazy antics as this defines an entire political perspective…but the same does NOT apply for Conservatives? Enron was a “liberal” company?

[quote]

Lastly, the rationalization that because someone else has done something wrong means that it is O.K. for others to do is the root of criminal thought. The “I’m gonna get mine” attitude that basicly makes everything O.K. is bullshit, and you know bette than that.
At least I hope so. [/quote]

I thought the “I’m gonna get mine” attitude was what powered the stereotypical Conservative mindset?

71

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Nice job. Care to quantify “very”? Care to quantify “serious”? Care to quantify “hard”?[/quote]

WTF? Why are you asking ME those questions? I didn’t make that statement, I didn’t use those quantifiers, Zeb did. Ask HIM!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Please keep believing that - and please keep supporting left wingers that share your same villianistic view of the backbone of this country.[/quote]

The “backbone of this country”? Yeah, everybody that helped build this country was rich or became rich. Sure – in that little place I like to call the RWU…

72

[quote]hspder wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Re-read what you wrote. You said nothing about proving that rich people work hard.

Your attempts to dodge the question are getting pretty silly, RJ.

In case you’re not able to read up two postings, here it goes again:

ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

TO WHICH I ANSWERED:

hspder wrote:
I second vroom on this one: I want proof.

So, let me explain like you were a 5 year old: First of all, I want proof that most (i.e., over 50% of people) who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

“Anecdotal evidence” doesn’t count. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence of the contrary, so we could be exchanging anecdotes till the cows came home. I want PROOF: a scientific, credible study, with proven methodology, that proves your (and Zeb’s) claims.

Do you need a drawing?

Until you provide me with that, your claims are as substantiated as OJ’s or Robert Blake’s innocence.
[/quote]

I think the proof is in who pays income tax. Don’t the top 10% of earners pay half (or more) of all the extortion (excuse me, income tax) collected?

The bottom half of all wage earners pay very little.

If its wealth creation we want, why not turn this around? Have the highest rates on the lowest incomes. This would encourage people to earn more to get into a lower brackets!! (I’m joking, of course. No one should be forced to pay at all.)

73

[quote]hspder wrote:
PPS:

Sorry, it’s just after Christmas, even though I am not a Christian, most of the audience believes they are, and I can’t resist the obligatory quote, the one that has made the expression “Christian Right” the biggest oxymoron ever conceived…

As a certain hippie Jew that was born around 2,000 years ago (give or take a decade or so) said (as quoted in Matthew 19:24):

“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
[/quote]

Very disingenous! This was written at a time when most wealth was gotten through violence and slavery. Here’s a better quote:

“To the glory of mankind there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of MONEY. And I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means a country of Reason, Justice, Freedom, Production, Achievement. For the first time…there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being, the self-made man, the American Industrialist.”
— Ayn Rand
Atlas Shrugged

(BTW: that was from memory, guys :slight_smile:

74

[quote]hspder wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Nice job. Care to quantify “very”? Care to quantify “serious”? Care to quantify “hard”?

WTF? Why are you asking ME those questions? I didn’t make that statement, I didn’t use those quantifiers, Zeb did. Ask HIM![/quote]

Nice job. Have you been taking lessons from the vroomeister?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Please keep believing that - and please keep supporting left wingers that share your same villianistic view of the backbone of this country.

The “backbone of this country”? Yeah, everybody that helped build this country was rich or became rich. Sure – in that little place I like to call the RWU…
[/quote]

Indeed the backbone of this country. Who employs over 70% of the U.S. workforce? C’mon, you’re the uber-smart, internationally renowned Stanford professor. You know the answer to this one.

SMALL BUSINESS.

You need to learn the difference between “backbone” and “everybody”. No one is defending trust fund babies like Kennedy, Rockefeller, Bush, Kerry (he might have married into it - twice - but the label still fits), Hiltons, et al.

But to say that the small business owner is not the workhorse of our economy is to not know very much about the subject.

75

[quote]hspder wrote:
ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.

But keep in mind that those are exceptions. Citing exceptions to the rule does not prove the rule to be invalid.

I second vroom on this one: I want proof. And while you’re at it, prove also that most poor and extremely poor people are NOT hard workers.

Studies, papers, whatever. Until I get those, I call BS – or, to be more politically correct, “right-wing wishful thinking”.
[/quote]

Proof?

Well, that is a tough one indeed. Can you prove that those who work harder in the gym make better progress?

Maybe it’s a combination of working hard and working smart.

But then that’s always the case right?

76

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:

The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.

Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.

There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.

To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance.

Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.

[/quote]

I think we all might be missing the point. Or at least those of us who do not have an agenda.

My father was a blue collar worker all of his life. He worked harder than any man that I have ever known. And he never made it above the average.

Working class people work hard, no doubt.

My point is that in order to become financially successful one must also work hard (and smart).

Is that a fair statement?

77

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think we all might be missing the point. Or at least those of us who do not have an agenda.

My father was a blue collar worker all of his life. He worked harder than any man that I have ever known. And he never made it above the average.

Working class people work hard, no doubt.

My point is that in order to become financially successful one must also work hard (and smart).

Is that a fair statement?

[/quote]

Even that statement misses out one very important aspect…being in the right place at the right time. Some may call it luck, chance or even destiny, but most “rich” people wouldn’t be so without being given an opportunity. Do you think the highest paid recording artist is the most talented, smartest vocalist in the world? No, of course not. There is someone even more talented with an even higher IQ who won’t make it, simply because they were never given a chance. The fault in your logic is assuming there is equal opportunity for all. There isn’t. I worked my ass off through school to the detriment of much of my personal life at the time. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t some other kid out there who simply needed the same opportunities I got whether that be from parental guidance or the schools attended.

The mistake of many conservatives seems to be their choice to ignore this concept. Someone is not poor because they didn’t work as hard or as smart as someone else. It is just not that simple.

78

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Even that statement misses out one very important aspect…being in the right place at the right time. Some may call it luck, chance or even destiny, but most “rich” people wouldn’t be so without being given an opportunity. Do you think the highest paid recording artist is the most talented, smartest vocalist in the world? No, of course not. There is someone even more talented with an even higher IQ who won’t make it, simply because they were never given a chance. The fault in your logic is assuming there is equal opportunity for all. There isn’t. I worked my ass off through school to the detriment of much of my personal life at the time. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t some other kid out there who simply needed the same opportunities I got whether that be from parental guidance or the schools attended.

The mistake of many conservatives seems to be their choice to ignore this concept. Someone is not poor because they didn’t work as hard or as smart as someone else. It is just not that simple.
[/quote]

And that misses out on the point of recognizing an opportunity when you have one. You don’t have to be the smartest person in the world to get rich, but you do have to have the ability to know when to take advantage of a situation that will benefit you, wether it is financial or otherwise. I know there have been times when I didn’t recognize, until after it passed, an opportunity to make some money in real estate or the stock market. I don’t think that makes me stupid or less hard working. I just didn’t see it plus, I am ultra conservative when it comes to laying out my money, so I know there are going to be things I miss out on because I refuse to take the risk.

And as far as a recording artist, it has nothing to do with IQ in the academic sense, but a music sense. If you can write a hook you will sell records, if you can’t you won’t. Every new music movement proves this: hair metal, grunge, rap, emo. Whatever you like, when it first explodes on the scene there is the rush to find other artist like them and you have a million copycats, that eventually die off because they can’t write a hook. Or they do like Korn did and hire The Matrix to write half their record for them.

79

The mistake here is assuming that talent to perform is all that is necessary, and that is not true. I have seen many skilled magicians that have phenomenal skill, yet go nowhere. I have seen a professional in Vegas who had less skill then I did.

What is the difference? The things that go on behind the scenes. The networking, marketing, phone calls, basically playing the game.

It wasn’t Bill Gate’s computer knowledge that made him the richest person on the planet, it was his business skills. (Whether you like them or not.)

Schwarzenegger didn’t become a famous actor because of his great acting ability. The people who know him say he plays the game, and very well.

80

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Even that statement misses out one very important aspect…being in the right place at the right time. Some may call it luck, chance or even destiny, but most “rich” people wouldn’t be so without being given an opportunity. Do you think the highest paid recording artist is the most talented, smartest vocalist in the world? No, of course not. There is someone even more talented with an even higher IQ who won’t make it, simply because they were never given a chance. The fault in your logic is assuming there is equal opportunity for all. There isn’t. I worked my ass off through school to the detriment of much of my personal life at the time. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t some other kid out there who simply needed the same opportunities I got whether that be from parental guidance or the schools attended.

The mistake of many conservatives seems to be their choice to ignore this concept. Someone is not poor because they didn’t work as hard or as smart as someone else. It is just not that simple.
[/quote]

So what is the answer? Is there an answer? Not every person is going to have the ideal circumstances under which to prosper. In reality most people probably don’t. So why do some succeed and some do not, regardless of background and economic circumstance? I am not naive enough to believe that hard work is the answer in all circumstances, but it sure doesn’t hurt, and it is a better alternative than not working hard. At the least it should be encouraged. “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.” - Thomas Edison

My conservatism does not mean I do not have a heart. I think society has a responsibility toward the poor. The hard question seems to be “How far does that responsibility go?”. Food, shelter, a job, a car, a college education? Where does the line get drawn? What truly helps people the most? Is it a perpetual handout, or is there a better way? Does the “welfare society” help or hurt in the long run?

I get tired of hearing the Eleanor Clift’s of the world telling me that I am a greedy, rotten person because I want small government and low taxes. Eleanor, if you want to send in more of your money, go for it. If every self-serving, feel good, guilt-driven person who ever said that actually did it, we probably wouldn’t have a federal debt to worry about. Better yet, get down in the trenches and do something about it. Donate your time and money to an organization that is making a difference. Better yet, use some of your wealth to start a business and create some jobs.

Government can best facilitate the solution of the problems by getting out of the way wherever possible. There is never going to be equality in terms of outcome. The poor will always be with us. I do not question the motives of most of my liberal friends. There are many who do put their money where their mouth is and make a difference. I do question the need to confiscate more and more of others wealth (which generally means the fruits of their labor) to assuage a sense of guilt and continue to fund failed or unproductive solutions.