[quote]skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:
The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.
Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.[/quote]
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance.
schrauper,
Great post.
hspder, good post.
HELL FREEZES OVER
[quote]hspder wrote:
In fact, some countries in Europe have seen pretty serious results just by increasing their VAT (which is somewhat similar to our Sales Tax).
[/quote]
They also have other taxes that go along the sales tax - especially a very high income tax
[quote]
Capitalism sustains itself by the movement of money. Money must change hands, as frequently as possible, INSIDE the country.[/quote]
This is true, there would have to be a tariff on imports which would be at least as high as the sales tax.
[quote]
it would provide a huge incentive for illegal transactions, included, but not limited to, smuggling; so the Government would now have to spend a LOT of money trying to control the illegal transactions, which, in the end, makes things even worse.[/quote]
Smuggling would be a problem. But tax evasion is a problem now. Yes the government would have to spend money to control illegal transaction, but think about how much it costs to have the IRS
I’m not sure about this, if anything savings would INCREASE because money would not be taxe until you spent it.
[quote]
The reason income taxes have been around for so long is because they work. They’re the easiest to collect, the hardest to get away from and the ones that have the least destructive psychological effect (believe it or not).[/quote]
I agree that income tax is the most efficient, but would question whether it is the easiest to collect. As for having the least destructive psychological effect I would say that goes to hidden/corporate taxes.
I agree with you that our tax system would be much better and more effeicent if we only had the income tax.
Okay, I have to do it, but I don’t suppose you have any proof?
I mean, it seems perfectly correct, but maybe this is just one of those things that everyone accepts as fact without ever really knowing.
And, you are Mr Proof.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:
The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.
Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance. [/quote]
I have to partialy disagree with you on this one R.J. Many people work very hard to stay on wellfare, and a lot of people with money are just realy good at making it, and therefore it is easier for them.
So what is the point? You should be taxed more if you work less for your millions than someone else. This is a fruitless argument.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:
The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.
Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance. [/quote]
Most fortunes in this country are made by entrepreneurs. If any of you have ever had an idea for a business and launched it from ground up then no one has to tell you that it takes a great deal of hard work.
For the majority of you who have no idea what I’m talking about, do some research.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
rainjack wrote:
skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:
The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.
Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance.
Most fortunes in this country are made by entrepreneurs. If any of you have ever had an idea for a business and launched it from ground up then no one has to tell you that it takes a great deal of hard work.
For the majority of you who have no idea what I’m talking about, do some research.
[/quote]
I, unfortunately, agree with this. Most people who truely bust their ass will do well for themselves. Though extremely wealthy individuals (I’m talking billionaires and up) tend to come from wealthier backgrounds. In true liberal fashion however, I believe in being happy doing what your doing and not just striving for monetary gain…I guess we’ll see if I change my tune in a couple years when I’m a starving, self-employed chemist looking for work.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance. [/quote]
To lump everyone that has money into the “worked super hard to get where they are now” crowd is just plain ignorance.
[quote]skrying wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance.
To lump everyone that has money into the “worked super hard to get where they are now” crowd is just plain ignorance.[/quote]
But it is the rule rather than the exception.
[quote]skrying wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance.
To lump everyone that has money into the “worked super hard to get where they are now” crowd is just plain ignorance.[/quote]
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.
Now, just because that seems to be the rule does not mean that there are not exceptions to the rule.
Some work very hard but don’t make a lot of money.
Some don’t work very hard and make a lot of money.
But keep in mind that those are exceptions. Citing exceptions to the rule does not prove the rule to be invalid.
You follow?
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
They also have other taxes that go along the sales tax - especially a very high income tax[/quote]
That is a common misconception – but a misconception nevertheless. Personally, I paid LESS income tax in any country in Europe I lived in. The extremely wealthy are indeed taxed the heck out of them, but not the middle class – and the lower classes pay almost zero income tax.
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
This is true, there would have to be a tariff on imports which would be at least as high as the sales tax.[/quote]
That exists already. And you know what? Doesn’t work. First, people find creative ways to get around it – and they do. Second, those import taxes have an extremely negative effect on many other levels. Not only they are a big problem with goods that we simply cannot produce in the US, in some areas some external competition is good. It needs to be small, but it helps to be there.
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
Smuggling would be a problem. But tax evasion is a problem now. Yes the government would have to spend money to control illegal transaction, but think about how much it costs to have the IRS[/quote]
It’s all relative. First of all, most of the tax “evasion” is basically very wealthy people being able to explore legal loopholes. Legal loopholes can be closed. Second, as many people in, say, Brazil, can tell you, controlling smuggling is by far more expensive than controlling true income tax evasion (by true, I mean criminal tax evasion, i.e., not the exploration of tax loopholes).
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
I’m not sure about this, if anything savings would INCREASE because money would not be taxe until you spent it.[/quote]
Precisely. Don’t tell me you are under the impression savings are good for banks?! They put up with it because have to, not because they make money out of it. On the contrary. Banks make the real money with credit cards and personal (unsecured) loans. Why do you think both MBNA and Providian were just bought by banks (BofA and WaMu, respectively)?
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
I agree that income tax is the most efficient, but would question whether it is the easiest to collect.[/quote]
Ask your nearby CPA and he’ll confirm it.
[quote]Heuristic wrote:
As for having the least destructive psychological effect I would say that goes to hidden/corporate taxes. [/quote]
I meant specifically between Sales Tax and Income Tax.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.
But keep in mind that those are exceptions. Citing exceptions to the rule does not prove the rule to be invalid.[/quote]
I second vroom on this one: I want proof. And while you’re at it, prove also that most poor and extremely poor people are NOT hard workers.
Studies, papers, whatever. Until I get those, I call BS – or, to be more politically correct, “right-wing wishful thinking”.
[quote]hspder wrote:
ZEB wrote:
No, actually it’s a pretty good rule. Most who have made some serious money have worked very hard for it.
But keep in mind that those are exceptions. Citing exceptions to the rule does not prove the rule to be invalid.
I second vroom on this one: I want proof. And while you’re at it, prove also that most poor and extremely poor people are NOT hard workers.
Studies, papers, whatever. Until I get those, I call BS – or, to be more politically correct, “right-wing wishful thinking”.
[/quote]
First of all you need to cite where anyone you have a bitch with said that “most poor and extremely poor are NOT hardworkers”.
Secondly, you won’t any studies that support the straw man you created simply because it is not PC to call poor people lazy. I’m sure if you spent anytime at all around them instead of just assuming you know them from your ivory tower - you would have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support the fact that there are indeed a whole shit load of lazy-assed poor people.
But since we are playing the “fabricated arguments” game - prove that most wealthy people (you know - those that have a family income above the nataional mean) are the lazy, spoon-fed, spoiled brats that you say they are.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
But since we are playing the “fabricated arguments” game - prove that most wealthy people (you know - those that have a family income above the nataional mean) are the lazy, spoon-fed, spoiled brats that you say they are.[/quote]
Wait – you can’t prove that your claim that most rich people are hard-workers, so I have to prove mine that they aren’t? Is that some kind of right-wing version of the “Innocent Until Proven Guilty” rule?
If you basically believe that neither of us can provide evidence of our claims, why do you feel so sure that YOU are right?
That is the question I’d like answered, that’s all. Until then, again, your claims will be treated as what they are: right-wing wishful thinking.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Wait – you can’t prove that your claim that most rich people are hard-workers, so I have to prove mine that they aren’t? Is that some kind of right-wing version of the “Innocent Until Proven Guilty” rule? [/quote]
Re-read what you wrote. You said nothing about proving that rich people work hard. You requested proof that “most poor people” were not hard workers. My point must have flown right over your head. I’ll try harder: No one has said that most prople weren’t hard workers. Why should I provide proof for something I never said?
Is that easier to understand?
Once again - what is the question? You start off asking one question, and call me out because I fail to provide proof for another.
I will be glad to offer my proof - anecdotal as it might be - if you will just figure out what in the hell you want me to prove.
I surely hope you are not this scatter-brained in your lectures.
I’ll place my bets on the hard work to become rich strategy. If I find out later that I could have been lazy and made as much or more, then oh well. Egg on my face.
Also, the idea that people who have money were born with it, stole it, or that it was somehow ill gotten is a very classist statement. Funny how when someone makes a racist statement- out come the cries of ignorance, but if someone makes such blatantly classist statements to minnimize the hard work and intelligence tha a person has to demonstrate to earn a fortune, you get nothing. Or worse-agruements that support it.
I wonder why that is?
Why are people susicious or outright venomous toward people with substantial wealth?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
skrying wrote:
I only skimmed over this whole thread, but I need to say this:
The problem with the joke is it assumes everyone who is well off has worked hard for success and everyone who’s not well off is has not worked hard.
Hard work does not equal success/money/grades/anything.
There are more hard working millionaires than there are hardworking welfare recipients.
To lump everyone that has money onto the “lazy trust fund baby” crowd is just plain ignorance. [/quote]
Besides this being baseless, its also ignorant to say that everyone who is in the working class is not hardworking. There is a reason that 10% of the country controls 90% of the money; and Its not because 90% of the people don’t work hard.
I was very poor all my life until I got an education. I will testify that, from what I witnessed, most poor people work just hard enough to get by. The concept of TRYING is not in their ken.
I’ve seen guys blow their unemployment checks in a liquor store (worked there on weekends years ago), with their kids out in the car. I’ve seen guys fuck up their work, so they’ll get fired and can go on unemployment and welfare. They’d boast about it!
I know this was non-scientific, but there’s my 2 cents.